Question: why do we think support will end?

[Iben]

Guys as long as it profitable, they will make it.

That is a bit of an oversimplification. Profitability is one parameter that will help decide whether we get more support after FY24 (that is, if we're getting support in FY24 as that hasn't been confirmed yet but it has been hinted at), but there's a whole bunch of parameters that also influence this. Things like contractual obligations that force them move devs from this team to other teams for instance. It's a much bigger picture than just profitability, but the latter is the only thing the community seems to focus on.

We're pretty much looking at an ice-berg from a distance here. We have somewhat of an idea of how profitable PZ is because of Steam charts and the financial documents, but even our idea of the current financial state is incomplete. We call it a cash cow, but we don't even know if it still is one or if it ever was one. And then there's everything below the surface we don't know. Contractual obligations, other games in the work, internal affairs amongst devs, etc. etc. etc.

All of those unknown parameters just makes it pretty much impossible for us to make any substantiated statement regarding continued support, as we can only focus on the tip of the iceberg and at best, we're looking at it from a great distance.

 

[premierfong]

That is a bit of an oversimplification. Profitability is one parameter that will help decide whether we get more support after FY24 (that is, if we're getting support in FY24 as that hasn't been confirmed yet but it has been hinted at), but there's a whole bunch of parameters that also influence this. Things like contractual obligations that force them move devs from this team to other teams for instance. It's a much bigger picture than just profitability, but the latter is the only thing the community seems to focus on.

We're pretty much looking at an ice-berg from a distance here. We have somewhat of an idea of how profitable PZ is because of Steam charts and the financial documents, but even our idea of the current financial state is incomplete. We call it a cash cow, but we don't even know if it still is one or if it ever was one. And then there's everything below the surface we don't know. Contractual obligations, other games in the work, internal affairs amongst devs, etc. etc. etc.

All of those unknown parameters just makes it pretty much impossible for us to make any substantiated statement regarding continued support, as we can only focus on the tip of the iceberg and at best, we're looking at it from a great distance.

Well Iben, you got invited to their live stream, maybe Frontier will listen to some of your recommendations to them.

 

[Narwhaler]

With many animals left to be added support isn't going to end anytime soon (as others have said, there is just so much you can add to a theme park, but there are way more animal options for a zoo game), the assumptions of support ending after a certain number of DLCs or PZ2 coming are simply a pattern-sought excuse based on JWE and PlanCo rather than an actually logical assumption.

Planet Zoo has much potential left and it is very clear just by seeing how JWE2 is underperforming compared to its predecessor that keeping features such as birds and aquariums for a sequel is way less profitable than adding said features to the current game, which has a well established and consistent playerbase.

 

[jcp011c]

That is a bit of an oversimplification. Profitability is one parameter that will help decide whether we get more support after FY24 (that is, if we're getting support in FY24 as that hasn't been confirmed yet but it has been hinted at), but there's a whole bunch of parameters that also influence this. Things like contractual obligations that force them move devs from this team to other teams for instance. It's a much bigger picture than just profitability, but the latter is the only thing the community seems to focus on.

We're pretty much looking at an ice-berg from a distance here. We have somewhat of an idea of how profitable PZ is because of Steam charts and the financial documents, but even our idea of the current financial state is incomplete. We call it a cash cow, but we don't even know if it still is one or if it ever was one. And then there's everything below the surface we don't know. Contractual obligations, other games in the work, internal affairs amongst devs, etc. etc. etc.

All of those unknown parameters just makes it pretty much impossible for us to make any substantiated statement regarding continued support, as we can only focus on the tip of the iceberg and at best, we're looking at it from a great distance.

Add to that, the example was a Paradox game. Paradox is fairly known as this point for releasing DLC long term for most of its games. Not a bad thing, I've played several of their games, and enjoy Cities Skylines particularly. But what's funny to that example, they're still releasing content for Europa Universalis and that turns 10 years old in April. It's just how Paradox rolls, and they shouldn't really be considered the standard as for as video game release patterns. In my opinion anyways.

 

[Iben]

Well Iben, you got invited to their live stream, maybe Frontier will listen to some of your recommendations to them.

Hahahaha, I'm afraid I don't have any influence like that

 

[iloveyourzoos]

I think a part of it may be "group think" within the forums -- and part of it may be the structure of the forums themselves!

By the structure of the forums, I mean that it is naturally easier to predict or speculate on what might be in the next dlc, or next year of dlc's, and to get more people to participate in a limited exercise like that, than to get a bunch of people to lay out their dreams for five or ten years worth of support. And it's easier to revamp and adjust one or four dlc's worth of predictions every three months (presuming that we didn't guess the most recent addition with 100% accuracy) than it is to rethink a 20 or 40 dlc masterplan every three months. Similarly, threads about the most essential pieces, mechanics or animals tend to focus the mind around scarcity and priority. That's not anyone's fault or intention. It's just the underlying structure of those conversations. And as a result those of us who participate in the forums on a regular basis have kind of inadvertently conditioned ourselves to thinking in more limited intervals, rather than more expansive ones. So arguments that support is ending "in about a year" -- even when that exact date keeps getting pushed back like a doomsday cult's apocalypse date -- end up feeling more rational, even without actual evidence, simply because we've structurally conditioned ourselves to think in terms of that timeline. Or said another way, arguments in favor of the end start to feel more like solid evidence or rational assumptions, and more easily pass as solid evidence or rational assumptions, than equally valid arguments for a longer life cycle that fall outside of our customary ways of thinking.

The group think part also comes from all sorts of assumptions that are either commonplace now, or were at some point in the past, which get/got repeated so often that they began to feel like evidence, and either consciously or unconsciously get/got used as reasons, sometimes long after their basic presuppositions have fallen apart. So we had/have assumptions that Planet Zoo is following the pre-pandemic, ride-limited model of Planet Coaster. We had/have assumptions about other games in Frontier's portfolio and how profitable they would/wouldn't be. We had/have assumptions that a zoo game would be too niche to extend beyond a certain point or a limited player base. We had/have assumptions about which animals can/can't highlight a pack. We had/have assumptions that they would be limited by the number of continents or biomes or architectural styles. We had/have assumptions about what mix of building packs and animal packs the community would support, and in what order they'd come. We had/have assumptions about what types of animals they'll limit themselves to (birds/aquatic/exhibit). We had/have assumptions about needing to control emotions and keep people from getting their hopes up. We had/have assumptions about whether content creators would see fewer clicks and move on to covering other games, and what impact that would/wouldn't have on advertising and sales. We had/have assumptions about what type of game it even is (architecture game, animal game, challenge game, management game), and whether future players (and future updates) will see it the same as early adapters. We had/have assumptions about Frontier's business model overall, and whether Planet Zoo's success/failure does/doesn't have substantial bearing on that. We had/have assumptions about whether found data or technical limitations reveal something permanent, or simply reveal what is needed for the near future.

The truth is that none of us know for sure. But that means (or at least should mean) that none of us know for sure either way. The fact that the consistent trend in the forums so often looks toward the end -- enough that you've noticed it -- says more about us and our assumptions than about what will actually happen with the game itself (which is completely unknown!). That's both good news (in the sense that actual development won't depend on the structures and assumptions of our group think) and bad news (in the sense that we're unlikely to be able to untangle all those structures and assumptions long enough to stop predicting the end!) LOL!

 

[avietar]

Guys as long as it profitable, they will make it. What we fans should do is keep buying DLC AND keep helping Frontier promote this game so more new players. There is a big Chinese and Indian market, they LOVE zoos there.

If terms of finance, Froniter need this cash cow to help maintain the a stable amount of revenue to show investors, otherwise stocks will go down, and CEO will get no bonus.

Also look at City Skyline, it was released in 2015 still supporting and still releasing official and unofficial DLC of every type, there was a one released in Dec 22. From content to in game music. If Frontier is going this route, it would be PERFECT.

I hope support last forever.

View attachment 341423

Exactly. Potential content for PZ is endless.

 

[jcp011c]

Exactly. Potential content for PZ is endless.

Theoretically, yes. They will never run out of animals if they really wanted to just go by that. But what is not endless is return on investment and the natural cycle of official support for almost all video games ending at some point in the game's future. 10 years down the road if they were still producing content, how many people are going to actually buy a pack featuring giraffe #4, an 8th variation of the black bear, the 28th new world monkey, and the 10th penguin? I think it's very likely that support is at most halfway done. I just can't see them going past 2025 at very latest. At some point, the animals will have a reduction in market value, real life market as in the ability to generate sales, not the animal market.

 

[avietar]

Theoretically, yes. They will never run out of animals if they really wanted to just go by that. But what is not endless is return on investment and the natural cycle of official support for almost all video games ending at some point in the game's future. 10 years down the road if they were still producing content, how many people are going to actually buy a pack featuring giraffe #4, an 8th variation of the black bear, the 28th new world monkey, and the 10th penguin? I think it's very likely that support is at most halfway done. I just can't see them going past 2025 at very latest. At some point, the animals will have a reduction in market value, real life market as in the ability to generate sales, not the animal market.

I think this is very restrictive thinking though (the umpteenth zebra and giraffe).

On these forums many people hate the ideas but if pz starts true aquatic expansions, suddenly there are a lot of fresh possibilities. Same with extinct expansions. And the one many people are clamoring for: true flighted animals.
Then there is the potential of domestic animals, a host of behavior updates, potential rides...

That's what I mean with the possibilities are endless. At some point the game's life will end, but that doesn't need to be for many years.

 

[Iben]

At some point the game's life will end, but that doesn't need to be for many years.

When it comes to animal choices? Sure. There's still a bunch of animals to add to the game, even if we for a minute take a step back from the idea that aquariums and aviaries are supposed to be goldmines, there's certainly enough for at least a year and I'd say you could still do another two without running into really obscure animals.

But that's not everything. To just name something, even on a technical level this game might not have been made to get long term support (I'm talking about 5+ years at least when I speak about long term here). That's not even doomthinking, it's extremely common in development. And in a situation like that, it might not be profitable to update the core of the game to do so. So there you have a reason why it would have to end faster than "many years".

Honestly, animal choices is the last thing I'm personally worried about. If Planet Zoo support ends, it's most likely to because of technical reasons or because the ROI isn't enough anymore; but probably a combination of both. Neither of the factors we have insights on atm.

 

[AlexSea]

I think it comes down to pessimism more than anything else. The game is profitable and there's plenty of potential future content, so why would support be ending any time soon?

 

[DarthQuell]

I see what @Iben is saying. But, it's also from a marketing standpoint.

There aren't many zoo games out there, they are an extremely niche subgenre of game that doesn't dominate the market.

When you see the top games, they run along the lines of RPG, city-builders, Minecraft, shooters, etc.

Planet Zoo falls in the city-builder zoo subgenre, and that's not a huge market, relatively speaking. A year from now, how many players will still play the game? Like realistically speaking? I know that many of the members here would, but even then some of us (and I'm guilty too) haven't been in the mood to play PZ.

I feel like, at the moment, the way the game is headed there isn't much to do that can give it a boost. Maybe aviaries and aquariums, as has been stated, but over time even those would end up stale, methinks.

Something that made Zoo Tycoon and Zoo Tycoon 2 so memorable was the "newness", they were so different than other games at the time. Even then, they fall into such a specific area they are semi-forgotten. The modding community contributed to it lasting as long as it did, and Zoo Tycoon mod support was officially supported (at least the 1st game, with the APE program). Frontier doesn't support mods, not on the same level.

I believe that, for the game to last longer than what could be done, having a tool like the ThemeMaker and maybe even an AnimalMaker would help the game to last a bit longer until a hypothetical sequel or spiritual succesor

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

I see what @Iben is saying. But, it's also from a marketing standpoint.

There aren't many zoo games out there, they are an extremely niche subgenre of game that doesn't dominate the market.

When you see the top games, they run along the lines of RPG, city-builders, Minecraft, shooters, etc.

Planet Zoo falls in the city-builder zoo subgenre, and that's not a huge market, relatively speaking. A year from now, how many players will still play the game? Like realistically speaking? I know that many of the members here would, but even then some of us (and I'm guilty too) haven't been in the mood to play PZ.

I feel like, at the moment, the way the game is headed there isn't much to do that can give it a boost. Maybe aviaries and aquariums, as has been stated, but over time even those would end up stale, methinks.

Something that made Zoo Tycoon and Zoo Tycoon 2 so memorable was the "newness", they were so different than other games at the time. Even then, they fall into such a specific area they are semi-forgotten. The modding community contributed to it lasting as long as it did, and Zoo Tycoon mod support was officially supported (at least the 1st game, with the APE program). Frontier doesn't support mods, not on the same level.

I believe that, for the game to last longer than what could be done, having a tool like the ThemeMaker and maybe even an AnimalMaker would help the game to last a bit longer until a hypothetical sequel or spiritual succesor

Straight up, buildings, animals and dlc arnt what will change planet zoo. You either like the building or you dont, and if building got stale for you then more animals wont change it.
The place where this game can change and has tons of room to embrace is in the management and that will only get better with the updates.
Dlc are nice and all but what really decides the future of planer zoo will be the free updates and im way more excited for the
future patchnotes then i am for any upcoming dlc

 

[DarthQuell]

Straight up, buildings, animals and dlc arnt what will change planet zoo. You either like the building or you dont, and if building got stale for you then more animals wont change it.
The place where this game can change and has tons of room to embrace is in the management and that will only get better with the updates.
Dlc are nice and all but what really decides the future of planer zoo will be the free updates and im way more excited for the
future patchnotes then i am for any upcoming dlc

Exactly. That's what I'm tryna say. A new animal, a new building piece will be fun the 1st week, but afterwards you're wanting more.
So, assuming we receive mod support, yeah, you download an animal/construction piece and it'll let you enjoy the game a bit more, but then you'd get bored and wanna do something else or just keep downloading mods.

Management could use an overhaul. What exactly, I'm not sure, but it could use one. Unfortunately, Frontier doesn't always have the best things in management; JWE is guilty of it and I haven't played Planet Coaster enough to know.

Zoo Tycoon 1 & 2, though, had a ton of replayability, in my opinion. I loved to do the campaigns and then after.you finish a campaign you unlock special scenery.
Or, if you played challenge mode, you'd unlock some cool buildings to use in your zoos, some throughout the whole game and others only in that particular map. I mean, you could even unlock the quagga as an adoptable animal by releasing every extinct species.
Also, the events in the game, some big, some small. Like, you'd have to deal with a worker strike. Or, an earthquake would destroy fences and you'd have to fix it. Or a celebrity would come and you'd have to take pics of them doing something; after doing that, you'd get a publicity boost.


Things like that would be a major improvement without adding too much

 

[Captain Callum]

Or just keep downloading mods

I feel called out

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

Exactly. That's what I'm tryna say. A new animal, a new building piece will be fun the 1st week, but afterwards you're wanting more.
So, assuming we receive mod support, yeah, you download an animal/construction piece and it'll let you enjoy the game a bit more, but then you'd get bored and wanna do something else or just keep downloading mods.

Management could use an overhaul. What exactly, I'm not sure, but it could use one. Unfortunately, Frontier doesn't always have the best things in management; JWE is guilty of it and I haven't played Planet Coaster enough to know.

Zoo Tycoon 1 & 2, though, had a ton of replayability, in my opinion. I loved to do the campaigns and then after.you finish a campaign you unlock special scenery.
Or, if you played challenge mode, you'd unlock some cool buildings to use in your zoos, some throughout the whole game and others only in that particular map. I mean, you could even unlock the quagga as an adoptable animal by releasing every extinct species.
Also, the events in the game, some big, some small. Like, you'd have to deal with a worker strike. Or, an earthquake would destroy fences and you'd have to fix it. Or a celebrity would come and you'd have to take pics of them doing something; after doing that, you'd get a publicity boost.


Things like that would be a major improvement without adding too much

Oh theres alot to change, just some of my usual pet peeves:

• Appeal Rating is broken with exhibits having way to much
• CC should have never been a currency but a progression system, the idear of progressing by having a zoo thats valueable for conservation is good but the way you earn and spend it are lacking
• Shelters do not function properly because of broken hitboxes, the fact that we only have one habitat gate and that the keepers cant move freely in habitats
• The trade center is busted op and takes any skill expression away as an on demand god mode that doesnt even cost money
• Guest priorities are not good to say it without profanitys. Idk who goes to the zoo to buy 20 sodas and to have that on an higher priority then actually seeing any animals
• Both Guests and animals do not have individual needs, making them serve one serve all. Even just adding that different individual animals tolerate different amounts of other animals of their own species would change the management and animal choice up so much
• Research is a lazy timer locking out content with the only reason that it exists to not overwhelm the player, which is good for your first zoo but afterwards just unnessecary
• Illnesses are on a level of harmless in this game they might aswell not exist
• Vets in general are lowkey useless
• Security could be an interesting system, but with the consequence only being having to repair a bench because of vandalism the fact that its 0 fleshed out doesnt seem so bad
• Star Ratings are meaningless, they only are for the ego not for game progression or any other practical use and be it just having to pay less for stuff
• No kinds of interesting events that change up the gameplay
• The biggest consequence of an escaped animal are negative reviews (i think?) and some trash cans being thrown down (an improvement but a rather lacking one)
• Elecrticity and clean water arnt challanging, just tedious to hide these ugly as stations everywhere
• The weather only has visual effects besides temperature differences
• The requirements of the animals are interesting in many cases
• The biggest challange of any given "challanging" mode is to not just transfer the zoo to sandbox and turn of all the annoying things cause thats all this games "management" is. Annoying at best, literally hampering your creativity at worst

 

[Spiderhawk]

Will PZ one day end? Yes
Would frontier be a lot cooler if they didn’t end PZ? Yes
Do I want PZ to end? No
Anyway, it’s just something we understand. I really hope that this year we will get different dlc formula than previous.
No more 4+1, the amount is not enough to satisfy people anymore.
I’d like to see if we get anymore builds then build+7+1+ set of 5WE.
Also if you notice that the animals of the top 50 seem to be more divided then many animals that were once in the top 50

 

[premierfong]

I think (at least for me), I am worry about if PZ ends, we are just stuck at this current incomplete game. We will never get to see a Zoo building game for a long long time. What we really want now is Frontier giving as as much as possible (land, air and sea) in PZ's life time, so we can continue to play this for 10 20 30 years to come.

 

[Harbinger]

The game had a 94% revenue sustain rate, year on year. Staffing isn't likely to be a huge concern as Frontier onboards an average of 10 new hires every single month. Staff may certainly need to be rotated out to other projects from time to time (for the sake of their own sanity mostly) but there's going to be plenty of other staffing to be able to rotate in replacements if needs be.

Inevitably Frontier will make the decision to stop producing DLC at some point but whilst it remains sufficiently profitable there would seem to be little reason to stop.

Planet Coaster's death knell was probably more to do with porting the game and then afterwards, DLC to consoles than anything else. Porting Planet Zoo to consoles is going to be a complete none starter until most people make the leap to PS5 & Xbox Series X|S as there's no way they can port this game to the older generation consoles and the potential purchasers on the newer generation machines need to be at a level that justifies the expenditure.

I personally believe Planet Zoo will make it to it's fifth anniversary before we get to that point and that will bring us halfway into the first of these release windows:

We are already in development for a new title for FY25, as well as early-stage scoping for another new game in FY26

FY25 = 1st June 2024 - 31st May 2025, FY26 = 1st June 2025 - 31st May 2026

Recent hiring notices would seem to indicate there will be more games set in the PlanCo universe in the future. Could either/both of these be PlanCo titles? Only time will tell. For now they remain mystery projects.

 

[Markiz]

Cause everything must come to an end on this finite realm of ours