No Single Player offline Mode then?

[wolverine2710]

I personally only think they have made the decision on this fairly recently, so corrections weren't probably possible earlier. The FD guys all seem like fairly good guys... I just don't think they would mean to deceive.

When I read all the posts by Michael Brookes on Saturday (go to to his profile and search for his posts) and all the damage control he was trying to do I personally got a different feeling. Lets assume they tried very hard to get offline mode in. I don´t think they realized just this week it doesn´t work. Hence it gets axed. To me it all sound like, lets wait till the very last second to tell the community. There can be good reasons for that - PR could be on aspect. I DO believe they are good,solid company, but they are just that, a company - with all the PR, spinning, surviving,selling that comes with it. Like I said before. Offline cancelled, what parts of the DDF-archives have already been cancelled but will be told to us later? In the last weeks the vertical-slice, MGU (magical gamma update) it all was discussed. Commanders said,have FAITH, it will all be good,we have omly seen a fraction, more surprises to come - offline cancelled was indeed a surprise. I said last week I´m between hope and fear till Gamma hits. Since the latest newsletter I´m more going towards fear then hope.

 

[Tim Wheatley]

I fail to see doom and gloom some people claim it here.

I agree. I'm not doom and gloom, have said Frontier are a quality studio and that the game itself is great as-is. But this does not stop my devastation at having lost what I wanted from the game, and that is to share it with others (without an internet connection capable of gaming), such as my brother.

If I can paint an image for you? We sat in the same room, at a friends, both with our Commodore Amigas, playing Elite II. We would tell each other what system we were in, what we were doing, what we found, any money we made, anything we bought, sold, etc. All of this was offline and something I could have shared in the same way with my brother. It's this experience, this feeling, that I wanted with ED, and expected. That is now gone. I have no issues with the fact it's gone, but I am extremely sad about it. As I've said, *I* can play online. I am spending my time posting here mainly correcting misinformation, I don;t feel like I am arguing because there is nothing to argue - offline is gone. I just find it strange sometimes to see people questioning it ever was supposed to exist, when Frontier are taking refunds based on that fact.... lol

 

[Robert Graham]

Not that it seems to have anything to do with Single Player Offline being removed but those claiming that Log In authentication is not DRM need to actually go and re-read the current defination of Digital Rights Management which by the way is what D.R.M stands for. You can just go do a google search if you want and shock you'll get the same answers from places other than Wikipedia including the likes of News Papers, the BBC, University's, Computer Groups and even Digital Publishing groups.

D.R.M is considered to include any methods built into an Electrical Product or Service with the aim of controling the use of the product or device after sale, including but not limited to preventing resale or use of the product in a manner different to that which the original developer intended.

Simply by having you forced to LOG IN to the launcher Elite Dangerous has D.R.M, while yes it is a core part of the game if the game was originally published as intended with an OFFLINE component then you wouldn't need to login and thus there would be no D.R.M. How is the Launcher Log In DRM? Because it checks to see if you OWN the game, it authenticates it against the store and if you do not have it on your account then you are unable to login, hence D.R.M.

The reason DRM has such a bad name is because its seen as being a limitation forcing people who have brought a product to use a product the way the author wants them to and only that way. In most cases it does not prevent piracy as can be seen by the near next day cracking of most AAA games even with complex DRM management or heck even the piracy of games that use Steam or other platforms.. To most end users it is seen simply as a company saying we don't care that you've paid for the product you'll use it how we want or not at all and you most certainly will not resell it or anything like that.

In some countries certain aspects of it's use have caused legal challenges the same as EULA's have as most EULA's try and say you only 'loan' the software and do not have the right to resell, however most Countries have laws which allow the reselling of goods that you have purchased and software is considered a 'Good' this is in part why 2nd hand console games are traded and sold. In the few cases where such has gone to court the software companies typically have lost and been forced to allow the user to sell their product, this includes companies such as Adobe, Microsoft and yes even Blizzard (who have tried to prevent players from reselling things like Star Craft 2 accounts, WoW accounts etc).

Despite that aspect of DRM (login checks) Always Online technology started in the market, it's seen as hey look if you have to be online we can CHECK and see if you have the right to be on our product.. and it has not been taken well by the consumer base at all, Microsoft tried it with the X-Box One.. and they faced that large of a backlash that they quickly backpeddled and changed their minds on it and (unsurprisingly) the producer who was unwilling to at first budge suddenly 'retired' days after the backpedal.

Electronic Arts was forced to issue refunds, and eat a lot of humble pie over Sim City, they ended up patching in an offline mode and actually changing the entire way that Origin works allowing the 'Great game' gaurentee.

Blizzard was forced to issue refunds and actually taken to court in a number of countries and had it's South Korean offices raided by the Government over Diablo 3's.

Steam is in court over certain aspects of it's DRM and refund policy.

So yeah DRM is in the game and the removal of Single Player Offline means that DRM free versions of it can no longer be shipped.

 

[Atinus]

You can install most actual games on any machines you want, and that does not make them DRM-Free while you need an online account and login to play. Offline mode was not needing any kind of authentication, and that is why it was DRM-Free.

Okay, then we're arguing semantics. You can install it on multiple machines but what does that matter?

I'm fully aware Electronic Frontier Foundation for example defines online only games as DRM, but I point back to the Kickstarter and what they specifically said about DRM. Clearly Frontier would disagree with EFF about what constitutes DRM.

But, Frontier was always up front about authenticating with the server.

 

[strangerdanger]

Not that it seems to have anything to do with Single Player Offline being removed but those claiming that Log In authentication is not DRM need to actually go and re-read the current defination of Digital Rights Management which by the way is what D.R.M stands for. You can just go do a google search if you want and shock you'll get the same answers from places other than Wikipedia including the likes of News Papers, the BBC, University's, Computer Groups and even Digital Publishing groups.

D.R.M is considered to include any methods built into an Electrical Product or Service with the aim of controling the use of the product or device after sale, including but not limited to preventing resale or use of the product in a manner different to that which the original developer intended.

Simply by having you forced to LOG IN to the launcher Elite Dangerous has D.R.M, while yes it is a core part of the game if the game was originally published as intended with an OFFLINE component then you wouldn't need to login and thus there would be no D.R.M. How is the Launcher Log In DRM? Because it checks to see if you OWN the game, it authenticates it against the store and if you do not have it on your account then you are unable to login, hence D.R.M.

The reason DRM has such a bad name is because its seen as being a limitation forcing people who have brought a product to use a product the way the author wants them to and only that way. In most cases it does not prevent piracy as can be seen by the near next day cracking of most AAA games even with complex DRM management or heck even the piracy of games that use Steam or other platforms.. To most end users it is seen simply as a company saying we don't care that you've paid for the product you'll use it how we want or not at all and you most certainly will not resell it or anything like that.

In some countries certain aspects of it's use have caused legal challenges the same as EULA's have as most EULA's try and say you only 'loan' the software and do not have the right to resell, however most Countries have laws which allow the reselling of goods that you have purchased and software is considered a 'Good' this is in part why 2nd hand console games are traded and sold. In the few cases where such has gone to court the software companies typically have lost and been forced to allow the user to sell their product, this includes companies such as Adobe, Microsoft and yes even Blizzard (who have tried to prevent players from reselling things like Star Craft 2 accounts, WoW accounts etc).

Despite that aspect of DRM (login checks) Always Online technology started in the market, it's seen as hey look if you have to be online we can CHECK and see if you have the right to be on our product.. and it has not been taken well by the consumer base at all, Microsoft tried it with the X-Box One.. and they faced that large of a backlash that they quickly backpeddled and changed their minds on it and (unsurprisingly) the producer who was unwilling to at first budge suddenly 'retired' days after the backpedal.

Electronic Arts was forced to issue refunds, and eat a lot of humble pie over Sim City, they ended up patching in an offline mode and actually changing the entire way that Origin works allowing the 'Great game' gaurentee.

Blizzard was forced to issue refunds and actually taken to court in a number of countries and had it's South Korean offices raided by the Government over Diablo 3's.

Steam is in court over certain aspects of it's DRM and refund policy.

So yeah DRM is in the game and the removal of Single Player Offline means that DRM free versions of it can no longer be shipped.

Very good post.

 

[littleminxundr]

Your thoughts on this Tim,

What if.... FD made the announcement 2 or 3 months ago? Based on the most of the reactions it does not seem like it would of made any difference.
Those affected by internet access, concerns about future server availability, changing the terms of the KS would have been saying the same things.
Biggest difference is they may have had less refunds to process.

If I may chime in, had FD come foreward the moment that it became clear that their current development path would put them on the spot and they would have made a communication centering only around that one thing, and not as an afterthought pasted between two adverts... reception of the cut would've been a lot different.
It's the tune that makes the music here.
Now it is 'deal with it' and 'you can ask for a refund', while if they had been more pro-active I doubt if there had even been a call for refunds.
Say for instance, Micheal would've come out 6 months ago saying: Guys, we want to implement a lot of cool stuff, think about that idea X, or possibility Y and the only way we can do that is by going pure serverside with it, and so we regrettably must cut Off-line play. However, we feel that with the new direction, the game will be better as a whole and more enjoyable for everybody. Thanks for your continued support and understanding.
I think that people would've reacted along the lines off 'I can see the logic in that' and variations there off.

The way it went down now just doesn't sit well with a lot of people. Especially with those who KS'ed and saw their off-line ultra modern Elite become reality, quite literally in front of their eyes. To have it all taken away, so close to the finishline, that bites. Surely people who aren't affected by this, can at least understand that?

 

[jmga]

Okay, then we're arguing semantics. You can install it on multiple machines but what does that matter?

I'm fully aware Electronic Frontier Foundation for example defines online only games as DRM, but I point back to the Kickstarter and what they specifically said about DRM. Clearly Frontier would disagree with EFF about what constitutes DRM.

But, Frontier was always up front about authenticating with the server.

You forgot that offline mode would not require any authentication, now it is gone, DRM-Free is gone with it.

 

[Tim Wheatley]

The way it went down now just doesn't sit well with a lot of people. Especially with those who KS'ed and saw their off-line ultra modern Elite become reality, quite literally in front of their eyes. To have it all taken away, so close to the finishline, that bites. Surely people who aren't affected by this, can at least understand that?

I've been shocked to see how many seem unable to.

 

[duwoaoaw]

Okay, then we're arguing semantics. You can install it on multiple machines but what does that matter?

I'm fully aware Electronic Frontier Foundation for example defines online only games as DRM, but I point back to the Kickstarter and what they specifically said about DRM. Clearly Frontier would disagree with EFF about what constitutes DRM.

But, Frontier was always up front about authenticating with the server.

For multiplayer. Your chopping the quote off. Offline single player cannot by definition stay logged into an online server. These two lines exist on the same page and make sense. Just now one of them no longer is being delivered.

 

[gravityztr]

wow, this thread still exist


LOL XD XD !!!

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You forgot that offline mode would not require any authentication, now it is gone, DRM-Free is gone with it.

No. DRM Free claim was before even offline mode was attached to the project.

 

[duwoaoaw]

Well why do you think they added offline single player because people asked how could it be DRM free if there was no offline mode. It is pretty simple logic.

 

[ecgallagher]

If I may chime in, had FD come foreward the moment that it became clear that their current development path would put them on the spot and they would have made a communication centering only around that one thing, and not as an afterthought pasted between two adverts... reception of the cut would've been a lot different.
It's the tune that makes the music here.
Now it is 'deal with it' and 'you can ask for a refund', while if they had been more pro-active I doubt if there had even been a call for refunds.
Say for instance, Micheal would've come out 6 months ago saying: Guys, we want to implement a lot of cool stuff, think about that idea X, or possibility Y and the only we can do that is by going pure serverside with it, we regrettably must cut Off-line play. However, we feel that with the new direction, the game will be better as a whole and more enjoyable for everybody. Thanks for your continued support and understanding.
I think that people would've reacted along the lines off 'I can see the logic in that' and variations there off.

The way it went down now just doesn't sit well with a lot of people. Especially with those who KS'ed and saw their off-line ultra modern Elite become reality, quite literally in front of their eyes. To have it all taken away, so close to the finishline, that bites. Surely people who aren't affected by this, can at least understand that?

I disagree, based on the number of "I only bought it because its offline" and "What happens when the servers go down in 30 years" and " DRM DRM DRM". I don't believe time would have made a difference to most of these people. They feel betrayed and I don't think a month or two would have mattered.

I do agree and have posted elsewhere that FD did not handle the announcement very well. I also feel for everyone who won't get to play and was hoping something could be worked out in the long run. But that now looks unlikely.

 

[Atinus]

You forgot that offline mode would not require any authentication, now it is gone, DRM-Free is gone with it.

No, they contemplated syncing with the server as a part of offline, too, as an item they would investigate: "you probably won't be able to sync between server and non-server (again we'll investigate)." And they also said if you wanted to update the game, you had to authenticate: "there will be server authentication when you connect for multiplayer and/or updates and to synchronise with the server.". Yet right in the same sentence, they said the game was DRM-free: "Yes, the game code will not include DRM (Digital Rights Management)".

So, they *did* contemplate an offline player occasionally syncing with the server as a possibility, which would require authentication with the server. And they *did* contemplate offline updating the game, which would require authentication with the server. And they said it was DRM-free.

And you backed it. Because you bought it.

 

[Webferret]

Frankly just disappointed,

Looked forward to be able to play Elite whist I travel etc where I dont have internet in many of the places (Will dust off the X series as my traveling space game once again), Was a reason I finally jumped on board. But oh well , I can live with this.

But I am sure its going to hurt FD with many being rather upset (As per many pages of posts here) which will cost FD customers in the end.

 

[Ydiss]

Nah, that is also a type of DRM, we just didn't have that label until it was publicized in large part by Microsoft recently. Any game that requires some form of authentication to play it is digital rights management. You activate Windows? That's DRM. You have to stay connected and authenticated to play a game? That's DRM. Your game is limited to a fixed number of installs? That's DRM.

DRM is an umbrella term coined exactly for these cases, since there are many kinds of protections. So, it's just DRM. The article you linked says it best. DRM is methods to control digital products after sale. That's exactly what the ED account/authentication system is.

Funny you would link an article that proves you wrong.

I know the term had widened to lesser forms and I'll gladly admit that I have made a mistake in some of my wording based on that.

Doesn't change the fact that ED is DRM free, by definition, relating to the controversially enforced DRM that is widely loathed. I wasn't aware online games fell into that category purely by being an online only game.

If my game is on steam and listed as a DRM free application, can be loaded without steam running, can be installed multiple times without limitation, but is an online only game with a single, persistent world by design...

I can advertise it as DRM free.

You might claim I'm lying and try to get your money back. Which is what I suggested above. But the fact is, DRM is designed to prevent piracy and that is entirely up to the owner of the intellectual property to limit as they wish.

I'm happy for you to copy the game on your friend's PC and let them play it for a while. But if you both want to play at once, you both need to connect and you both need to buy the game. DRM free. Not anti copyright. Not unreasonable. Why would anyone be so against that? Well, according to some posts here, they are very much against it. But not because it's supposedly stopping them sharing the game, or pirating it...

We can argue the definitions all night. And I'm sorry I even brought it up. But this poster is unhappy they were promised a DRM free game under the impression that DRM free means offline enabled.

It's still irrelevant. If anyone thinks DRM is applied in ED and is not happy, they have two options.

Refund request. Or live with it.

 

[vjek]

... Say for instance, Micheal would've come out 6 months ago saying: Guys, we want to implement a lot of cool stuff, think about that idea X, or possibility Y and the only way we can do that is by going pure serverside with it, and so we regrettably must cut Off-line play. However, we feel that with the new direction, the game will be better as a whole and more enjoyable for everybody. Thanks for your continued support and understanding. ...

IMHO:

Unfortunately, and this is likely the entire reason for the timing, that action would have affected funding/ongoing beta income. Can't have that.
You're correct, it would have been the moral, ethical and 'right' thing to do, but that's the antithesis of money, profit, greed, and capitalism. FD has demonstrated, in this case, where their corporate integrity lies. Money talks, ethics walk.

In any case, this is lock step for most small shop Kickstarters. The Portalarium team, for example, developing Shroud of the Avatar has done exactly the same thing. Promised things in Kickstarter, claw them back years later.

All it does, for me, is ensure I will never again support a software development endeavor via Kickstarter. These two, alone, are enough to poison the well, from my perspective. It's too bad, it was good in theory.

And unless an FD employee directly contradicts me, I too am going with: they knew about this months ago, not days ago. Probably longer than a year ago.

 

[jmga]

No. DRM Free claim was before even offline mode was attached to the project.

From FAQ:

Will the game br DRM-free?
Yes, the game code will not include DRM (Digital Rights Management), but there will be server authentication when you connect for multiplayer and/or updates and to synchronise with the server.

Do you see that "but" after DRM? It means everything after is DRM, and everything before is DRM-Free, so if multiplayer and synch with server has DRM, what do we have left?

And please, someone answer to this:

For those who keep saying ED is DRM-Free, what makes it different from any other MMO game in DRM terms?

 

[wolverine2710]

If I may chime in, had FD come foreward the moment that it became clear that their current development path would put them on the spot and they would have made a communication centering only around that one thing, and not as an afterthought pasted between two adverts... reception of the cut would've been a lot different.
It's the tune that makes the music here.
Now it is 'deal with it' and 'you can ask for a refund', while if they had been more pro-active I doubt if there had even been a call for refunds.
Say for instance, Micheal would've come out 6 months ago saying: Guys, we want to implement a lot of cool stuff, think about that idea X, or possibility Y and the only way we can do that is by going pure serverside with it, and so we regrettably must cut Off-line play. However, we feel that with the new direction, the game will be better as a whole and more enjoyable for everybody. Thanks for your continued support and understanding.
I think that people would've reacted along the lines off 'I can see the logic in that' and variations there off.

The way it went down now just doesn't sit well with a lot of people. Especially with those who KS'ed and saw their off-line ultra modern Elite become reality, quite literally in front of their eyes. To have it all taken away, so close to the finishline, that bites. Surely people who aren't affected by this, can at least understand that?

In general, my personal view is that FD is not that great in communication. The newsletters are often quite ambiguous. Then a certain aspect is discussed and very very often I don´t see a confirmation/denial to set the record straight by FD. Offline mode cancellation was NOT something that happened in the last week. They waited till they could not wait any longer. Next week is Gamma and the premiere event. The cat would be out of the bag by then. THAT is what I don´t like. So perhaps they were NOT lying to, they for sure were NOT telling the WHOLE truth either. How many surprises (DDF-archives cancellations) will FD have for us in the future? It scares me a bit. Like I said, my personal view. The offline cancellation has already been picked up by the media btw.

 

[ecgallagher]

From FAQ:

Will the game br DRM-free?
Yes, the game code will not include DRM (Digital Rights Management), but there will be server authentication when you connect for multiplayer and/or updates and to synchronise with the server.

Do you see that "but" after DRM? It means everything after is DRM, and everything before is DRM-Free, so if multiplayer and synch with server has DRM, what do we have left?

And please, someone answer to this:

OK "White-Flag" you win. Your the DRM expert. We bow down to your DRM greatness.

It still does not change the fact that I am going to play Elite and other online games.

Heck, I have the NSA looking over my shoulder all the time. What? Me Worry?