because the large gimbaled ax mc have 33 piercing and the same damage as the fixed ones, while the mediums have only 17 piercing and also less damage (before piercing gets accounted for)
Thargoid invasion - Next target systems?
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because the large gimbaled ax mc have 33 piercing and the same damage as the fixed ones, while the mediums have only 17 piercing and also less damage (before piercing gets accounted for)
Oops, yes—I read off the numbers for the class 2 rather than class 3 regarding piercing, though the effect is much the same by the time one reaches Hydra hull with 220 Hardness, where I think a row of class 3 EAX Multi-cannons atop a Krait 2 should be just enough to oppose its regeneration rate (not sustained, excluding reload time). I suppose that 13.2 versus 12.8, if applied during an attack by other Commanders, actually would ease things quite a bit if one has the ammunition to throw at it.
With Plasmas in the class 2 hardpoints as well to help expose the petal, I found that my "support" Krait 2 could actually remove a Basilisk consistently, indeed using only heat sinks for cooling. I am very mildly curious to attack a Medusa with that, thought at present not curious enough to endure its small boost (this is very much a me-problem, having come here from bounty-hunting with a Mamba). The driver of that curiosity is that I remember using those Multi-cannons against a Medusa petal (already exposed) and dealing only a few percent, where in theory it should have been much the same as with a Basilisk petal.
Definitely they ruin Cyclops petals in a few seconds, though you should also be able to expose a Cyclops petal as well! To stay with three atop a Krait 2, that should cancel the one-third damage due to 33 Piercing versus 100 Hardness, or more likely reduce 29.4 to 29.1 per second. Exposing the first petal then needs 162 damage against 3.2 per second regeneration, which should take 6.25 seconds, fitting well within its 17-second time to deplete.
With Plasmas in the class 2 hardpoints as well to help expose the petal, I found that my "support" Krait 2 could actually remove a Basilisk consistently, indeed using only heat sinks for cooling. I am very mildly curious to attack a Medusa with that, thought at present not curious enough to endure its small boost (this is very much a me-problem, having come here from bounty-hunting with a Mamba). The driver of that curiosity is that I remember using those Multi-cannons against a Medusa petal (already exposed) and dealing only a few percent, where in theory it should have been much the same as with a Basilisk petal.
Definitely they ruin Cyclops petals in a few seconds, though you should also be able to expose a Cyclops petal as well! To stay with three atop a Krait 2, that should cancel the one-third damage due to 33 Piercing versus 100 Hardness, or more likely reduce 29.4 to 29.1 per second. Exposing the first petal then needs 162 damage against 3.2 per second regeneration, which should take 6.25 seconds, fitting well within its 17-second time to deplete.
No doubt you can take a Cyclop with any AX weapon. Basilisk, it's a big question. But Hydra, there's no way you can do it with multicannons.
I was referring specifically to the ability of the multicannons to destroy a heart, nothing else. I'm well aware it would do nothing against the body. Once the heart has been exerted can the MCs still destroy it, or are they useless at that as well?
Not that I'm in any position to try anything harder than a Cyclops, just curious.
We have an upper band progressing quite nicely, where all can finish just fine, and the prospects are also quite good for most systems which have reached 8% thus far. Alerts have Juipedun prevailing, Neites returning, and a few newcomers. Vistnero and Khondo Po join the fight, and I see that Friday Control surge appearing at Col 285 Sector TS-Z b14-0!
Top targets at 01:40 18th February 3309:
Bi Dhorora Invasion 56% — Hadad 18 Ly, 2 ports, 2780 Ls planet attack, 1857 Ls planet damage
Paeni Invasion 48% — Taranis 27 Ly, 6 ports, 571 Ls outpost + 23k Ls planet attack
Ahol Invasion 46% — Hadad 21 Ly, 4 ports, 395 Ls planet attack
HIP 6913 Invasion 46% — Oya 20 Ly, 3 ports, 350 Ls outpost attack, 2255 Ls planet damage
Gliese 9035 Invasion 38% — Oya 20 Ly, 3 ports, 933 Ls planet + 933 Ls planet attack, 556 Ls planet + 556 Ls planet damage
Imeut Invasion 38% — Taranis 19 Ly, 1 port, 9 Ls outpost attack, 12 Ls outpost damage
HIP 20890 Invasion 14% — Indra 22 Ly, 2 ports, 2983 Ls planet attack, 6876 Ls planet damage
Jaoi Invasion 14% — Oya 25 Ly, 3 ports, 432 Ls planet + 433 Ls planet attack, 237 Ls outpost + 433 Ls outpost damage
Juipedun Alert 12% — Oya 24 Ly, 39 Ls starport, 1450 Ls planet
Video treats for @Phill P to follow!
Top targets at 01:40 18th February 3309:
Bi Dhorora Invasion 56% — Hadad 18 Ly, 2 ports, 2780 Ls planet attack, 1857 Ls planet damage
Paeni Invasion 48% — Taranis 27 Ly, 6 ports, 571 Ls outpost + 23k Ls planet attack
Ahol Invasion 46% — Hadad 21 Ly, 4 ports, 395 Ls planet attack
HIP 6913 Invasion 46% — Oya 20 Ly, 3 ports, 350 Ls outpost attack, 2255 Ls planet damage
Gliese 9035 Invasion 38% — Oya 20 Ly, 3 ports, 933 Ls planet + 933 Ls planet attack, 556 Ls planet + 556 Ls planet damage
Imeut Invasion 38% — Taranis 19 Ly, 1 port, 9 Ls outpost attack, 12 Ls outpost damage
HIP 20890 Invasion 14% — Indra 22 Ly, 2 ports, 2983 Ls planet attack, 6876 Ls planet damage
Jaoi Invasion 14% — Oya 25 Ly, 3 ports, 432 Ls planet + 433 Ls planet attack, 237 Ls outpost + 433 Ls outpost damage
Juipedun Alert 12% — Oya 24 Ly, 39 Ls starport, 1450 Ls planet
Video treats for @Phill P to follow!
Imeut? AGAIN?!!
I swear, it’s like a small child … I turn my back for FIVE MINUTES and it’s like “for heavens sake, how have you got invaded by Thargoids again?!”
Okay! Mostly just because we were talking about it, but also because it provides a quite valuable reference when looking at Hydra footage, first up is three class 3 EAX Multi-cannons exposing and destroying a Cyclops petal.
Exposing the petal took around 7 seconds, which is not far away from the optimal 6.25 seconds I calculated using EDSY and AXI numbers for the weapon and target respectively. Despite remaining within the 2 km falloff threshold, the Gimbal sway causes many shots to miss the petal until I get closer, where they start shredding it. Then then quite rudely wanted reloading with the petal at 1%, so I may have been a bit impatient and used a Gauss. If anything, hopefully at least everyone now knows not to waste Multi-cannon ammunition at 2 km range that way.
Just for you, and with sincerest apologies to other Commanders present, I adjusted my Chieftain a bit so it had a Enhanced Xeno Scanner then flew out with two class 3 EAX Multi-cannons to use against Hydra petals.Breach damage versus a module is at least not subject to Hardness as hull damage is, so it is just a case of the Hydra petals having 140 Integrity, where Cyclops is 38 and the others are 70. The Hydra petals have 140 Integrity over the Cyclops 38, and the Hardness reduction will be 33/220 versus 33/100.
Obviously you will need to judge those moments where the petal damage comes from those Multi-cannons rather than from other Commanders striking it with more appropriate weaponry. Actually, the first half of the first petal is a quite good sample, where you can see again how being at 2 km causes many Gimbal shots to miss, versus most succeeding while at 1 km. One can see also how those four leaf structures block a lot of petal damage from behind the Hydra.
Mind that it was not a particularly good example of a Hydra battle—nor of the EAX Multi-cannons of course, though I hope it helps sate that curiosity a bit!
Muruidooges is very much ahead there, with three Invasion defences complete! Indeed the repeat Invasions are getting a bit old now, although that does at least indicate a front line being held to some extent. If there were some measure of total Thargoid forces, the price of a light-year surely would be an applicable consideration on their part.
Exposing the petal took around 7 seconds, which is not far away from the optimal 6.25 seconds I calculated using EDSY and AXI numbers for the weapon and target respectively. Despite remaining within the 2 km falloff threshold, the Gimbal sway causes many shots to miss the petal until I get closer, where they start shredding it. Then then quite rudely wanted reloading with the petal at 1%, so I may have been a bit impatient and used a Gauss. If anything, hopefully at least everyone now knows not to waste Multi-cannon ammunition at 2 km range that way.
Just for you, and with sincerest apologies to other Commanders present, I adjusted my Chieftain a bit so it had a Enhanced Xeno Scanner then flew out with two class 3 EAX Multi-cannons to use against Hydra petals.
Obviously you will need to judge those moments where the petal damage comes from those Multi-cannons rather than from other Commanders striking it with more appropriate weaponry. Actually, the first half of the first petal is a quite good sample, where you can see again how being at 2 km causes many Gimbal shots to miss, versus most succeeding while at 1 km. One can see also how those four leaf structures block a lot of petal damage from behind the Hydra.
Mind that it was not a particularly good example of a Hydra battle—nor of the EAX Multi-cannons of course, though I hope it helps sate that curiosity a bit!
Muruidooges is very much ahead there, with three Invasion defences complete! Indeed the repeat Invasions are getting a bit old now, although that does at least indicate a front line being held to some extent. If there were some measure of total Thargoid forces, the price of a light-year surely would be an applicable consideration on their part.
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The server you've stored those files on doesn't seem to have anywhere near enough bandwidth to support realtime playback (getting ~30KB/s).
Thanks for giving it a go. I just wondered if the multis were still good for hearts after exposing them with other weapons. I speculated that in the worst case they would do nothing and in the best they would do less damage to e.g. a Hydra or Medusa heart than to a Basi or Clops heart. Within 1km it seems to work just as well, so that's interesting but as you say in normal circumstances you wouldn't use them at all against Hydra if you could use something better.
I had no problem playing the video, it worked fine for me.
This isn't true. You can see the exact numbers in the network log, the same weapon will deal less damage to a hydra's heart than for a cyclops (at close range).
Sigh—I have spent quite a lot of time searching/reading about Breach, only for the one explanation which made any mention of it to suggest that Breach was separate from Hardness. I will have to believe you regarding the network log, though thank you for pointing to a specific reason why Hardness does apply.
This has to be a suggestion for Canonn Research Group; I find the topic quite unsearchable at the moment, and just a few example breaches would go such a long way. I have a mind to perform some myself now, with something like a class 1 Cannon (35 Piercing) against the same module in a Cobra (35 Hardness) and in a Fer-de-Lance (70 Hardness), so that a clear halving effect should emerge.
Thargoid Interceptor Hull Analysis | Canonn Research Group
1. Introduction Some time ago it was discovered that is is possible to repair Thargoid ships with human repair limpets [1]. The discovery opened up the possibility of measuring the properties of Thargoid Interceptor hulls, namely total integrity and Armor Rating. Recent understanding of...
canonn.science
(tl,dr; thargoid hearts do not follow the same damage model as human modules.)
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Section 8, "Appendix: What is the Thargoid Heart Damage Model?"Thargoid Interceptor Hull Analysis | Canonn Research Group
1. Introduction Some time ago it was discovered that is is possible to repair Thargoid ships with human repair limpets [1]. The discovery opened up the possibility of measuring the properties of Thargoid Interceptor hulls, namely total integrity and Armor Rating. Recent understanding of...
Reading that article, and given some testing I just did for myself, I now have far more questions about Human modules than ever I did about Thargoids! It contradicts what I am seeing for myself regarding Human modules, insofar as it states what I thought before to be the case, but I have just tested it and found otherwise.
Regarding Thargoid "modules", this part was something I had not yet noticed before:
If the Breach Chance does not apply (or is in effect 100%) when striking a petal, that changes completely how I had valued the Gauss, which EDSY lists otherwise as only 20–40%.
In any case, regarding the damage:
Consider that understood and presumed to be the case; Piercing versus Rating applies.
However, we also have:
This was exactly what I thought before, having stated so originally in an inapplicable context.
All of this made me quite doubtful regarding Human modules though, so I have just now tested it myself in Elite 4.0 using a 1D Fixed Cannon with 35 Piercing against a 4A Frame Shift Drive with 100 Integrity (useful!) while it was installed in a Fer-de-Lance, a Cobra 3, and a Cobra 3 with Reactive armour just to check for Kinetic resistance differences (the Cannon is fully Kinetic).
Stock Fer-de-Lance
70 Rating/Hardness, -20% Kinetic resistance.
| Attacker view % | Target view % | |
| 4A Frame Shift Drive | 100 | 100 |
| Breach 1 | 87 | 88 |
| Breach 2 | 74 | 75 |
| Breach 3 | 61 | 62 |
| Breach 4 | 48 | 49 |
| Breach 5 | 35 | 36 |
| Breach 6 | 23 | 24 |
| Breach 7 | 10 | 11 |
Stock Cobra 3
35 Rating/Hardness, -20% Kinetic resistance.
| Attacker view % | Target view % | |
| 4A Frame Shift Drive | 100 | 100 |
| Breach 1 | 74 | 75 |
| Breach 2 | 48 | 49 |
| Breach 3 | 23 | 24 |
Reactive Cobra 3
35 Rating/Hardness, +25% Kinetic resistance.
| Attacker view % | Target view % | |
| 4A Frame Shift Drive | 100 | 100 |
| Breach 1 | 83 | 84 |
| Breach 2 | 67 | 68 |
| Breach 3 | 51 | 52 |
| Breach 4 | 35 | 36 |
| Breach 5 | 19 | 20 |
| Breach 6 | 3 | 4 |
Based on that, my conclusions are:
- Actually, Human modules also consider the Piercing to Rating/Hardness ratio, contradicting everything I have ever read about it until now.
- Human modules consider the damage type resistance versus the weapon causing the Breach damage.
- Given that the module Integrity was 100 and therefore matches the percentage, the 21.4 Breach damage listed on EDSY is correct (it matches perfectly considering the two points above).
- The percentage listed on the attacker target panel always rounds down.
- The percentage listed on the target modules panel always rounds up.
Thank you most kindly for leading me to that, Ned!
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Yeah, this is the problem in open. If you cannot exert first hydra's heart you rely on other CMDRs support. In my experience, sometimes I have to deal with heart exerting along because other CMDRs just shoot it with beam lasers (don't know why) or restocking or dealing with smaller goids.
My tricked-out Anaconda specialises in exerting Interceptors. It has 4x Guardian shard cannons, and 2x guardian plasmas. Also 2x class 1 lasers with thermal vent, which now that I talk about those, are doing nothing useful for me.
I'm not averse to boosting in close to the goid and my usual firing sequence is plasma--->5 shard cannon shots (plasma during this)--->plasma
This usually does the trick. In fact this usually results in a very quick death of the Cyclops variant.
The only problem with the conda is that it's kinda slow and I find myself frequently "enjoying" the Yellow Lightning attack.
So perhaps we'll fight together sometime
But not right now, as I'm currently battling against covid - tested +ve last Thursday there and it's been kicking my Asp (there is a hint that I've passed the peak though).
Now I'm wondering if I should swap out those two class 1 lasers for AX multicannons, given the last few posts.
Beams aren't for damage, they are for cooling.
Everything is moving very well despite no completions thus far; we are on-course again for around 13 systems, so the majority of activity now should mature into a victory. Joining the fight, not all of which for the first time, are Balak, Kaurukat, Kurumanit, Marindhs and Nihal!
Top targets at 19:50 18th February 3309:
Bi Dhorora Invasion 78% — Hadad 18 Ly, 2 ports, 2780 Ls planet attack, 1857 Ls planet damage
Ahol Invasion 76% — Hadad 21 Ly, 4 ports, 395 Ls planet attack
Paeni Invasion 76% — Taranis 27 Ly, 6 ports, 571 Ls outpost + 23k Ls planet attack
HIP 6913 Invasion 58% — Oya 20 Ly, 3 ports, 350 Ls outpost attack, 2255 Ls planet damage
Imeut Invasion 52% — Taranis 19 Ly, 1 port, 9 Ls outpost attack, 12 Ls outpost damage
Gliese 9035 Invasion 50% — Oya 20 Ly, 3 ports, 933 Ls planet + 933 Ls planet attack, 556 Ls planet + 556 Ls planet damage
HIP 20890 Invasion 22% — Indra 22 Ly, 2 ports, 2983 Ls planet attack, 6876 Ls planet damage
Jaoi Invasion 22% — Oya 25 Ly, 3 ports, 432 Ls planet + 433 Ls planet attack, 237 Ls outpost + 433 Ls outpost damage
Juipedun Alert 22% — Oya 24 Ly, 39 Ls starport, 1450 Ls planet
To add something here—I am quite sure you knew the Beam Lasers were for cooling, though I presume you mean to ask why other Commanders use only that weapon rather than helping you to expose the petal. Unfortunately, I pose the very same question myself there! Too few seem aware that one Commander under Hydra gunfire could use some damage support to move the battle along.
From a hypothetical perspective, you should not! There was some curiosity regarding EAX Multi-cannons, but they are not very effective versus larger Interceptors. They are decently passable against a Cyclops, but absolutely terrible for a Hydra when compared to the various Guardian options, and likely you need that cooling from the Beams.
From a technical perspective, you cannot, for neither AX nor EAX Multi-cannons have a class 1 version available.
Have you considered Plasmas there instead? They are cooler than Shards, they should make better use of your class 8 Distributor, and they should be much more useful in general. The EAX Multi-cannon showcase was not intended to be a recommendation!
@Ned Flandalorian – Assuming I made no mistakes above and that damage to Human modules indeed considers both the Armour rating and the damage resistance, some further thoughts occurred to me earlier:
Top targets at 19:50 18th February 3309:
Bi Dhorora Invasion 78% — Hadad 18 Ly, 2 ports, 2780 Ls planet attack, 1857 Ls planet damage
Ahol Invasion 76% — Hadad 21 Ly, 4 ports, 395 Ls planet attack
Paeni Invasion 76% — Taranis 27 Ly, 6 ports, 571 Ls outpost + 23k Ls planet attack
HIP 6913 Invasion 58% — Oya 20 Ly, 3 ports, 350 Ls outpost attack, 2255 Ls planet damage
Imeut Invasion 52% — Taranis 19 Ly, 1 port, 9 Ls outpost attack, 12 Ls outpost damage
Gliese 9035 Invasion 50% — Oya 20 Ly, 3 ports, 933 Ls planet + 933 Ls planet attack, 556 Ls planet + 556 Ls planet damage
HIP 20890 Invasion 22% — Indra 22 Ly, 2 ports, 2983 Ls planet attack, 6876 Ls planet damage
Jaoi Invasion 22% — Oya 25 Ly, 3 ports, 432 Ls planet + 433 Ls planet attack, 237 Ls outpost + 433 Ls outpost damage
Juipedun Alert 22% — Oya 24 Ly, 39 Ls starport, 1450 Ls planet
To add something here—I am quite sure you knew the Beam Lasers were for cooling, though I presume you mean to ask why other Commanders use only that weapon rather than helping you to expose the petal. Unfortunately, I pose the very same question myself there! Too few seem aware that one Commander under Hydra gunfire could use some damage support to move the battle along.
From a hypothetical perspective, you should not! There was some curiosity regarding EAX Multi-cannons, but they are not very effective versus larger Interceptors. They are decently passable against a Cyclops, but absolutely terrible for a Hydra when compared to the various Guardian options, and likely you need that cooling from the Beams.
From a technical perspective, you cannot, for neither AX nor EAX Multi-cannons have a class 1 version available.
Have you considered Plasmas there instead? They are cooler than Shards, they should make better use of your class 8 Distributor, and they should be much more useful in general. The EAX Multi-cannon showcase was not intended to be a recommendation!
@Ned Flandalorian – Assuming I made no mistakes above and that damage to Human modules indeed considers both the Armour rating and the damage resistance, some further thoughts occurred to me earlier:
- Should one demote the value of starships with lower Armour rating, due to taking higher Breach damage? That could imply testing to discover whether Interceptor weapons deal different Breach damage depending on target starship, which may turn out to be high enough Piercing not to matter.
- Should one promote the value of Guardian hull reinforcement (versus engineered Heavy Duty hull reinforcement) because the Caustic resistance also applies to Breach damage? As above, the same type of test may be needed to determine that.
Yes, I have tried plasmas in my Condo build. Two problems:
1. Huge instantaneous damage leading to a panic shield on the goid. But consistent DPS is lower than shards.
2. Draws PD like crazy, very often 0-3-3 is depleted that doesn't happen with shards or gauss.
To be clear, I meant two Plasmas in place of the two Multi-cannons you mentioned, leaving the other four having Shards:
- I think a direct hit within 1 km from two class 2 Plasmas on a Cyclops with one remaining petal may provoke a shield, but otherwise it should be fine. Obviously, with other Commanders around everyone needs to be careful, though that is not particular to any weapon.
- It gives you a good option to use while a shield is present, where the Plasma ammunition is plentiful compared to the rate at which one operates it.
- Insofar as a class 7 Distributor seems capable of handling two Plasmas plus two others, I find it difficult to believe that a class 8 Distributor cannot handle two Plasmas plus four others.