Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12
- Thread starter Yaffle
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I'm already a fan. Gimme your number.
I think you are wrong here, and i curse myself for coming to LA's defense here, but you're not actually moving at all via multiple layers of physics grids, and this is also where ED's instances come into play.
Physics grids only exist within the region you are in. From the game's perspective, you are not moving at all, the rest of the system is moving, but there are no physics grids from the perspective of where you are (the instance). That's why planets can intersect. They exist as models, but not physical models outside their own instance bubbles.
Two people on opposite sides of the planet do not share an instance bubble and do not share a physics grid. Even players relatively close, i don't know, let's say 100km apart are not in the same instance (spitballing a number here, i don't know how far they stretch for sure) and are not sharing a grid. Only when instance bubbles merge will they share the same physical universe as it were.
Happy to be corrected here, but I think its how i think it works from a technical point of view.
This doesn't mean its not a great technical achievement, and indeed, it probably makes sense to do it this way from a computational perspective and have less bugs trying to constantly update moving physics grids of whole planets. It might also be why CIG have to be very careful when it comes to adding more and more to their systems, and also why they don't have moving planets and stuff, because if they did that, the servers and clients would melt (more).
Oh, i just remembered, first instance of a playable mini-game when a game is loading something....
It was either C64 or Spectrum, while waiting for the game to load from tape, you could play a small game of something like space invaders. 1980s tech.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
And yet in Elite they are indeed separate grids, with their own references and physics. It has been shown in videos multiple times where you can see ships as they change grid and reference in real time.
And it is not just a sky box. The planets are moving around, changing their coordinates, corresponding to their orbiting partner(s), be it a star or another body. Here below is an exemple, planet A to planet B in normal speeds (same happens also in super cruise). You can even see a seamless physics grid transition, from the grid of planet A to the grid of planet B a few seconds after 0:45. Each planet has its own grid and the ship transitions from one to the other. Not a sky box.
Lots of other similar vids with players SRVs making it to an orbiting station from planet surface as well thanks to geysers or lifting from other ships, or players intercepting an orbiting station without super cruise etc where you can see the sudden change in reference. All in normal speeds. Not a sky box.
It is ok if you do not believe it. But at this point this becomes like me trying to convince a flat earther that the earth is round. So, good luck!
PS: @Agony_Aunt Sorry mate you are wrong. They are indeed separate moving grids as you can see, both in turn moving around the star or main celestial object nearby, i.e. nested. These grid/reference nestings are just happening at celestial body (or station) scales, instead of in and out of a ship cargo hold. Your exemple about 2 players separate polar opposites in a planet shows no conflict with grids. It is just a matter of instancing. The same would occur with 2 people in the same place but in separate instances (Open vs Solo or whatever).The planetary grid for each player is still moving around its corresponding orbiting partner grid, they are nested. Both players keep on moving in space even if they are standing still on a rock. Much like you or me seating in front of our computers just now as the earth rotates and moves around the sun. Having multiple instances of the same location does not prevent that in each instance the grids are nested.
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Yeah, I remember the SRV 'flyers'. Great pioneers. I was alrwady grumpy with ED and then these guys came along. Legendary stuff.
SpaceKotelett - there's an idea!
Yes separate grid exists. But the origin of the post was about nested grid. No they are not nested = grid A of planet is not inside grid B of system.
For seeing from a planet A the other planets moving around, changing their coordinates, etc you absolutely not need the grid of the system when you are in the grid of the planet. You just have to calculate precisely all trajectories and positions of the spheres/assets you want to display from the ground of planet A. Managing it in the skybox doesn't mean that this skybox is simple to do. Skybox in ED is absolutely not simple to do as, for what I know, each dot in it is the real position of the star.
When you leave the grid of planet A and switch to the grid B of the system, you just have to place exactly all objects you were displaying in the skybox of planet A in the grid B of the system during the switch.
But there is no proof of grid nesting in ED.
Hurston has a diameter of 2000 km. Just with this info, you absolutely cannot know which reduction ratio is used for this planet.
If I tell you a planet in a game has a diameter of 2 200 km, this planet has a reduction ratio applied or not ?
Looks like 1345 times more gamplay than Stale Citizen on 1/1000000th size.
What is local gravitation? If it is around 1g one can tell reduction ratio roughly
I think you are confusing things. The physics grids are not connected in any way, as you say, its just a matter of instancing. Player in instance one's physics grid has no need to know anything about or have any interactions with the physics grid in player two's physics grid. Let's take for example two players, out of instance range of each other, but somehow visible to each other. Let's say 100km apart. Now, attach a 100km long pole to player 1's ship and have it poke player two's ship. My guess is, the pole would just pass right through player two's ship, because they are not physically connected until their instance bubbles merge.
My point is, unless there is a player there in an area, there is no physics grid at all, its just a unphysicialized (is that a word?) model unless there is a player close enough. Why would you bother calculating it if you can't even touch it?
The only place i can think where maybe they are doing nested physics grids might be stations with the station on-foot interiors and the stations themselves, but as i've theorized, they could actually be doing that with having interiors as being a separate map with the windows just being viewports into the other instance. I'd be interested to know which way they are doing that.
If planets actually had full physical grids, they shouldn't be able to merge into each other like can happen on rare occasions. They'd bump up against each other and stop... and probably cause some interesting issues.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
Ok, that is progress. Glad you accept that because that is fundamental to have nested ones.
No, no. The main point of that exemple is to show that they are not just a sky box as you suggested. Planet A is "real" with its actual coordinates and motion/speed, like a ship, not part of a sky box, and does not cease to be real after 00:45. Since you agreed they are separate grids I suspect you also now agree with this too.
Those planets grids also happen to be nested into whomever body they are orbiting, be it each other (in which case they would be indeed nested) or any other celestial body in the system. And they fly within those in real time in front of your eyes. Not a skybox.
That does not make much sense. It is the same for any nested grids system, Elite´s or not. In Star Citizen when we can see the surface of planet or an abandoned space station from a ship "we absolutely not need those grid systems when you are in the grid of your ship" until you either transition or exchange information.
You are confusing LOD with actual grids. The LOD in the Star Citizen ship interior grids you are referring to is typically measured in meters within and around ships/vehicules for example. In Elite grids this is measured in hundreds/thousands of KM or even light seconds for planets and celestial bodies. Both are actual nested grids, just different in scale. Think of a planet as a huge ship where I can store my vehicles and walk around, while it flies around the star in the system. Much like star Citizen artificial gravity and cargo holds in a ship interior grid I am also subject to a planet´s gravity, physics and can land my vehicles on it. Although as mentioned, Elite´s ships or planets do not often explode for no reason when transitioning or moving into a nested grid
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Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
The grids are connected already by nested coordinates (which is the main thing required to have nested grids in ships interiors). See my exemples above. Instancing is irrelevant. Grid nesting happens even with just one player. Your location on a planet surface grid, even if you stand still, is moving in the star system reference grid. Your planetary surface grid is nested in the star system one. In fact Elite star systems and bodies in them are "just" huge Matrioska sets of nested coordinate grids. Especially when you add in the mix space stations or fleet carriers.
You do not need to experience the physics of another grid (different gravity, surface collision meshes, celestial body motion speed etc) until you transition to it or exchange info with it. Same in Star Citizen. Having said that, you can indeed also get data and info from across other grids in Elite, such as wing beacons, unknown signals, wake signals and the like. The grid connection and info exchange is all there, just at cosmic scale and different type of gameplay compared to Star Citizen of course.
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Why is he complaining? Isn't being sent to jail one of those fidelity things that fanboys think is a great idea? His session isn't over at all! He just needs to enjoy the experience of being in jail. He can do the mario jumping game to get out and get someone to collect him, or work off his jail time by mining rocks, or just wait around for the fidelity timer to expire.
This is the experience they wanted!