[Doppel's Diatribes #3] That second SRV was great (...mostly), but we still need a few more

[DoppelShifter]

Preface: if you don't know what a Doppel Diatribe is, read here.

Today we'll talk about the SRV niches left uncovered, and even some that Odyssey's new careers actually created new demands for.

So. Our dear Scarab was essentially a futuristic, upgraded moon rover, and while sometimes a bit clunky, fragile and awkward-looking, it filled most of our needs from back when it was introduced in Horizons:

• It had a front arc "Wave Scanner", which allowed us to go treasure-hunting for precious ingredients for engineering, or for points of interest and canisters left behind.
• It was reasonably speedy, and its boosters could make a very good Mass Effect Mako impression in low-gravity planets.
• Its guns (more specifically its Plasma Repeater Turret) were more than enough to deal with most Horizon threats, such as Skimmers and Guardian defenses, as well as serve as an improvised "mining laser" for surface ores and meteorites
• It was kinda weak and flimsy, to the point that the chassis would suffer degradation even with shields on, but at a slow enough pace that it wasn't really a problem for Horizon content
• The exceedingly low traction due to the light weight meant it could be tricky to drive in some planets, but that kinda demanded a mastery that added to the fun of it. ...Or you could just go to a planet with your preferred gravity.
• It had space for 2 canisters of... whatever. Which was a little on the small size, but... eh. Make some extra trips to the ship or something, it's not like there's a lot else going on on that planet surface (....more on that later....)

Then we got Horizons, which introduced more serious surface combat, as well as more stuff to do on the surface, and literally more stuff in general on the actual surface (settlements, bases, life forms, enemies, crash sites, structures, geographic phenomena, etc etc etc). That instantly demanded a new kind of SRV, since the Scarab was extremely flimsy and not at all suited to a warzone or a frontal assault on a base (while in Horizons we were Solid-Snaking ourselves with our Scarabs in order to scan data). We needed something new.
So we got the Scorpion, which is a much heavier 30-ton mini-tank (about as heavy than the hull of some small ships, even though it doesn't add weight -- don't think too much about it, and please Frontier, never change this, or we'll have severe issues with Exploration later on), more heavily armed with the Surge Repeater (basically a... plasma gatling gun) and Arculeus Launcher (seeker missile that can also be dumbfired) and with more armor and far more shields than the dinky Scarab, at the cost of not having a Wave Scanner. The added weight and lower top speed also mean it's far more maneuverable than the Scarab, while still being able to jump-jet over small obstacles. It was tailor-made for surface combat.

....Except not really.

Let's make a rundown of the Scorpion's flaws:

• The Scorpion's repeater is an incredibly odd gun in that it has some decent DPS but it has a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn; which is weird for a gun intended to fight foot soldiers.
• While the missile launcher one-shots skimmers and it's (mostly) overkill against humans... it has to deal with shield gate (....which deserves its own diatribe), always requiring at least two shots to kill a single shielded human enemy. That, coupled with a tiny ammo reserve, means you'll run out of missiles pretty fast, leaving you with just that repeater that will be amazing at shooting around what you're aiming at.
• And keep in mind you only have THIRTEEN missiles, so... you better not miss. And also pray that group of 5 enemies doesn't bring a dropship with 5 more (...which they more often than not actually do).
• Also, in practice, the Scorpion isn't even that sturdy. Sure, it has over 5 times the shielding of the Scarab, but... remember how human guns are super unbalanced against vehicles? (more on that on a future diatribe) ...That means if you try to bring your Scorpion to fight those gangs of 5 scavengers around that crashed satellite, chances are they'll rip through your shields faster than you can actually get that wonky repeater to kill a single one of them.
• And adding insult to injury, the SYS capacitor of the Scorpion is so ridiculously dinky that it'll deplete completely while trying to regenerate its shields, even at 4 pips. So... so much for being "born to survive".

....Believe it or not, the best way to kill soldiers using the Scorpion is with the oldest vehicle weapon of all: road rage. You weight 30 tons of cermet armor, they weight 90 kilos of flesh, calcium-deficient bones and space fashion, there's not much of a contest there.

So yeah, the Scorpion needs refinement ASAP, even though it was released a year ago.

But that's not the only problem with our SRV lineup.
Great, we have a prospector SRV and a combat-focused SRV. ...But Horizons added new stuff to do on surfaces, didn't it?

We now have exobiology, a career that demands long periods of time traversing a lot of terrain scanning alien life.

We now have far more missions demanding us to go to POIs that have canisters; MANY canisters. A lot of these POIs are even unguarded, or guarded with flimsy skimmers that you can shoot down with your pistol.

...So, what do? The Scarab's chassis is terrible for rough terrain, and it breaks apart like wet cardboard on long trips at top speeds, which it makes it less than ideal for exobiologists (plus the wave scanner and the guns don't really help with the mission, so all they do is waste precious fuel). Scorpion? It has more traction and it's more controllable, sure, but it has a lower top speed, worse cockpit visibility and again, gun turrets are a waste of fuel. And both only have space for two cargo cannisters.
EDIT: my bad here, the Scarab was buffed to 4 with the release of the Scorpion, but the points here still apply.

....Plus, I'm gonna indulge on a bit of selfishness here: ....remember back when the scarab was first announced, when we got those promo videos for Horizons and we thought we'd be able to race on planet surfaces? ...Sure, we have player-made Scarab racing challenges here, but the Scarab is far from a pureblood racing machine.

So. What do we need? Suggestions time:

• FIX THE SCORPION.
  
  • Fix the accuracy issues with the main gun. Either make it more accurate with longer bursts, or more accurate in short bursts, or improve its accuracy in general, etc. It's ridiculous that the Scarab's guns and even your FRONT BUMPER are actually more efficient at killing soft targets.
  • More ammo for the missile launcher wouldn't hurt, but as long as the issues with the main gun are resolved, 13 isn't that bad either, specially considering synthesis.
  • Fix its shields, making it more adequate for the kind of encounter it's intended for. Either make them beefier, or increase its resistances, but above all, give it a bigger SYS capacitor (or at least one that regenerates faster) so its shield downtime isn't as ridiculously long. A bit more armor wouldn't hurt either, considering it has less than 60% more armor than the Scarab, a vehicle with 13% of the Scorpion's mass.
• We still need more SRVs.
  
  • Exobiology could use a faster SRV, with plenty of cockpit visibility, even less shielding than the Scarab, but either more armor for more endurance, or a better suspension/propulsion system that allows it to traverse terrain without breaking (...maybe a hovering speeder? I mean, we already do have ships that can hover almost indefinitely). Give it a vague life-detection scanner on the same line as the Wave Scanner and either no guns or the wimpiest of guns just to crack samples from geisers and bam, we have our perfect research speeder.
    This one would be by far the highest priority, as I know a new SRV implies lots of work with design, modelling, coding, refining how its specs interact with the physics model (speed, traction, if it clips through the floor then skyrockets when it kits a rock, etc)
  • Surface scavengers could use an SRV with more cargo space, specially if they want to keep searching for artificial POIs rather than just keep going back to the ship to unload. Just give it a telescoping trunk (so it can still fit the same "box" as the others when entering/leaving the ship), a beefy chassis and suspension, maybe a multicrew-compatible multicannon turret for self-defense, the Scarab's wave scanner and you have a cargo hauler that can go the distance. It would be probably okay to compensate with less-than-ideal cockpit visibility, slow acceleration, etc.
    This one is less necessary, specially after the slight buff to the Scarab's cargo, but a "truck SRV" with 8+ cargo capacity and a backseat gunner would be great nonetheless.
  • And this here is pure indulgence, but... can we get an actual surface speed demon? No guns, no advanced scanners, just... raw speed, maneuverability and cool paint jobs. It can serve as a scouting vehicle for people who really want that, but the main purpose would be... just being a commercial sports vehicle. I mean, Star Citizen marketed one before they had anything playable, why not have one here considering we had the demand for one since the Horizons days?
    This one is pure vanity, but let's be frank, it would also sell livery packs like hotcakes.

And that's what we have for today.

See ya folks next time.

 

[CMDR Rabbit]

Just a note, they upped the cargo capacyity on the Scarab to 4, i think it was when they released the scorpion.

 

[HappyMoonMonkey]

The scarab was buffed to carry 4 tonnes.

 

[DoppelShifter]

Just a note, they upped the cargo capacyity on the Scarab to 4, i think it was when they released the scorpion.

Oh, my bad then on the Scarab's cargo, but I was still thinking something on the realm of ~8 cannisters at least (since a lot of POIs found on modern missions have some 8 cannisters or more) and this new SRV would've been intended for going to more than one of these, just like we used to run our Scarabs throughout a planet's surface, often bumping into 2 or 3 sets of canisters while searching for some Tellurium or something.

Also, the frailty of the Scarab still applies.

(I edited the original post anyway, also adding a few lines on the new SRV suggestions)

 

[CMDR Don Samen]

I once suggested a new SRV with tracks in stead of wheels. That SRV would be perfect in the rough terrain you sometimes finds bio-stuff in. On flat surface I don't use SRVs anymore, I use my ships - mostly my Python. But in rough terrain I switch to my Cobra, and end with struggling a lot with finding a spot to put it down. An explorer SRV on tracks and with all the scanners needed for exo-bio hunting would be the perfect tool. That SRV would not even need space for cargo, but could be the first 4-seat SRV in stead with a "gunner" running the sensors.
Both the Scarab and Scorpion has their purposes. Bio-hunting is not one of those. The role of the Scorpion is somewhat weird due to the lack of protection against personal weapons and the horrible spread on the repeater. I only find one good use for those guns, and that is taking down then "Goliath" at military settlements. If I need to take down soldiers, I always end up using the Scarab, that donut making thing of an SRV
Yeah, I end up making lots of donuts on the ground before realising that I have all pips on engine - the straight forward configuration.

 

[Chaparral]

1) Put a scanner on the Scorpion.

2) Change the fire from gattling mode of the Scorpion to semi automatic cannon mode with higher single shot damage, but singnificant capacitor drain - like a true tank.

3) Let players fly a Goliath.

 

[Kalvak]

IR would be a good combat addition instead of a turret light.
Maybe you have no real combat experience, but a big shiny light just tells enemies WHERE to concentrate their fire.

They do need to Chill in the Jitter on Plasma, though! Ridiculous you can't hit anything at 30m! But the Scarab has a much better turret than the Scorpion? No, no, no .
Or give me the option of the Scarab Turret!

And Scorpion needs a tad more boost - just another second.

Yes, NEED an EXO SRV - with EXO Scanner ... Or just add EXO mode to SRV scanner would be good enough!

 

[DoppelShifter]

IR is not really necessary when Night Vision exists and serves the same purpose while using a less complex visual filter (SRVs are just like ships in that Night Vision is always available instead of an upgrade like in suits).

As for completely replacing the fire mode to a seemi-auto thing... that's a tad complicated because the model of the Scorpion's main gun is supposed to be an energy weapon, and clearly a fast-repetition gun (since it borrows design hints from Plasma Accelerators, Beam Lasers and the class 4 Multicannon. Changing it to a single-shot cannon would defeat the idea communicated by the model (unless they also change the weapon's model and scrap the old one, which is unjustifiably wasteful).

I think just changing the behavior of the jitter (and then maybe tweaking the damage) could be enough (maybe also double-checking the capacitor pools, since the SYS cap is already too small -- increasing the overall pool could also help remedy the mediocre jump with the vertical thrusters).

 

[Kalvak]

Totally disagree on IR... Modern Military IR, often called "White Light," or "White Hot", gives clear definition of Targets vs Terrain, while allowing both to be seen
The "green screen" version of "night vision" is just a green blob, with little definition. I was just as Sad when I finally got "night vision" on a battle suit ... Messy green screen. If we're doing ground combat, we need combat vision.
We're in 3309, and we don't have vision systems at good as were available to US Military in 1990.
Why?

Why not give a choice if armaments on SRV's, like we have on SLF's? Plasma and Missile OR Laser and Autocannon? The Scarab's Autocannon is Way better, and as much as we live the Feel of the Scorpion, many prefer to still use the Scarab because of it's accuracy.

 

[Crank Larson]

• Exobiology could use a faster SRV, with plenty of cockpit visibility, even less shielding than the Scarab, but either more armor for more endurance, or a better suspension/propulsion system that allows it to traverse terrain without breaking

The original Scarab is already perfect for this. It couldn't get faster (you can take it into orbit if you want...). With practise you can maintain high speeds without taking damage.

 

[DoppelShifter]

Totally disagree on IR... Modern Military IR, often called "White Light," or "White Hot", gives clear definition of Targets vs Terrain, while allowing both to be seen
The "green screen" version of "night vision" is just a green blob, with little definition. I was just as Sad when I finally got "night vision" on a battle suit ... Messy green screen. If we're doing ground combat, we need combat vision.

I swear I had to go back to a different thread to see if you weren't the same person complaining about real-life trivia minutia about thermobaric munitions, because that's the kind of pedantic detail-driven waste of time that I see being the focus of discussion here so often. All because people seem to forget one simple thing about Elite Dangerous:

"Regardless of realism, this is still a game, and things still have an implementation cost, as well as gameplay consequences."

I get the real-life explanations about the differences between multiple generations of IR vision (TL;DR "I've also played S.T.A..L.K.E.R"); the problem is that those differences are not relevant here.

Elite Dangerous already implements a far more complex version of NV than we see in many IR systems, since what they use as a base for their NV is the game's built-in draw distance and shaders, instead of any real-world sensor or computer image processing algorithm trying to translate and guesstimate things. The similarities mostly die on "Frontier chose Green for aesthetic reasons. as well as functional contrast with the mostly-orange UI".

The problem with actually implementing a version of any other color (for example, a monochromatc version with self-adjusting white balance, to mimic modern IR, or a multichromatic version with different colors for different temperature gradients, to mimic the more commonplace commercial FLIR cameras) is that it opens a lot of other time-consuming issues: both take a while to implement and troubleshoot, both require developing brand-new shaders, both require lots of usability adjustments, both mess with the game's color balance (meaning it's an accessibility issue for colorblind people), and it also have a chance of clashing with pre-existing UI color mods.
...All for the sake of what, pedantic realism?

If we were to go down that road, the Anaconda's hull superstructure is made of negative-mass styrofoam since day one, and that hasn't changed for years. Because going for nitpicky extreme realism would make other aspects of the game extremely unfun (good luck piloting a 2000T dry hull 'Conda on the atmosphere) or would require so much re-fiddling with other aspects that it's just not worth it.

Why not give a choice if armaments on SRV's, like we have on SLF's? Plasma and Missile OR Laser and Autocannon? The Scarab's Autocannon is Way better, and as much as we live the Feel of the Scorpion, many prefer to still use the Scarab because of it's accuracy.

Speaking of requiring refiddling with other aspects, you seem to forget a key aspect of SLFs vs the SRVs: unlike those, the Scorpion and Scarab have their hardpoints completely exposed, and purposefully-modeled for the guns their represent. Wanna add other loadout options? Sure, but they'd have to remodel the guns too.

...Or do you think Frontier will "just make do" with a plasma repeater firing kinetic ordnance, or a rocket launcher firing lasers, just so they can re-use the models?

The original Scarab is already perfect for this. It couldn't get faster (you can take it into orbit if you want...). With practise you can maintain high speeds without taking damage.

I wouldn't say "perfect" though, and I already mentioned the "imperfections" in my first post, but I'm going to point them here again, with more emphasis:

• The chassis is extremely fragile for long hikes, and it gets particularly egregious in high-speed impacts
• Its suspension depends on hugging the terrain in the proper angles, otherwise you will damage it. It not only requires "practice", it's also highly dependent on the body's gravity. Good luck "getting into orbit" or "traversing more than a few kilometers without severe damage" in a 2G planet (and 0.0x planets have the opposite issue, having so little gravity that you can lose traction and freespin your space wheels, making its extreme potential top speed moot).

In the end, It's not only very demanding on "practice", its effectiveness only really applies in a certain range of situations for surface exploration. Which is why I suggested an alternative, instead of a blanket "git gud" kind of answer.

 

[Crank Larson]

It's not fragile in the slightest, is my point. Especially if you use premium hull synthesis (which doubles the strength). It should take damage on high G worlds, because you are hitting the ground that much harder.

Having to learn to flyve the landscape and get the right angle to reduce/eliminate damage is what makes driving the Scarab fun. And why I don't own a Scorpion.

 

[Kalvak]

Condescending diatribe of a pedantic, petulant . Yep. Try insulting more people with your overbearing, unpopular opinions. Great thread. Regret wasting my time.
If there was an accomplished IT person, they would have gone to Unreal Engine 2-3 years ago when they first presented "space legs".
The ONLY "Space Legs" I see are my legs Awkwardly Dangling around when I use the "boost pack". Looks AWESOME! AND, if they had gone UE5, it would be HGIG, and my "gold" skins wouldn't look Orange on my 8k.
You do Love to Try to insult people...

 

[DoppelShifter]

Condescending diatribe of a pedantic, petulant . Yep. Try insulting more people with your overbearing, unpopular opinions. Great thread. Regret wasting my time.
If there was an accomplished IT person, they would have gone to Unreal Engine 2-3 years ago when they first presented "space legs".
The ONLY "Space Legs" I see are my legs Awkwardly Dangling around when I use the "boost pack". Looks AWESOME! AND, if they had gone UE5, it would be HGIG, and my "gold" skins wouldn't look Orange on my 8k.
You do Love to Try to insult people...

I don't need to insult you, the way you present arguments and type things out already insults yourself well enough.

It's not fragile in the slightest, is my point. Especially if you use premium hull synthesis (which doubles the strength). It should take damage on high G worlds, because you are hitting the ground that much harder.

Having to learn to flyve the landscape and get the right angle to reduce/eliminate damage is what makes driving the Scarab fun. And why I don't own a Scorpion.

Oh, believe me, it is quite fragile, specially compared to the durability of the Scorpion, or the Scarab itself in more optimal gravity situations.

And I don't really count premium hull synthesis in this equation because the point here is considering the natural durability of the Scarab across the normal usage regime; if it requires specialized stat boosting and driving techniques to avoid getting a 10% hull damage on a stray rock, I can't really say that chassis qualifies as "sturdy" in normal situations (heck, the Scorpion can't jump for crap, but at least it takes a lot to actually damage it while driving -- despite having a lot more inertia due to its absurdly high mass).

Lemme put it this way: what you said is not wrong, but you're adding too many asterisks to qualify as "the typical situation" (if what you said needs "premium synthesis and specific driving techniques", then it's not really about the sturdiness of the chassis "in general" anymore, is it?)

...And in the end, my suggestion doesn't prevent you from using the Scarab for this; it just suggests adding more options for different usage scenarios. It's about increasing variety, not "doing more with less".
If every single answer to "more options" was "but what if you use X and Y in these specific ways", this game would have 30% of the ships and 20% of the weapons it currently has.

 

[Crank Larson]

Lemme put it this way: what you said is not wrong, but you're adding too many asterisks to qualify as "the typical situation" (if what you said needs "premium synthesis and specific driving techniques", then it's not really about the sturdiness of the chassis "in general" anymore, is it?)

Of course it is. Premium synthesis directly affects the strength. And driving directly affects the damage. If you faceplant a cliff, it should hurt. If you judge the landscape (and are not on > 1g planet), nothing hurts (not even most rocks if you see them coming).

And to be clear, I've no objection to new SRVs that can do different stuff. I just don't agree with your analysis of the Scarab.

 

[DoppelShifter]

Of course it is. Premium synthesis directly affects the strength. And driving directly affects the damage. If you faceplant a cliff, it should hurt. If you judge the landscape (and are not on > 1g planet), nothing hurts (not even most rocks if you see them coming).

And to be clear, I've no objection to new SRVs that can do different stuff. I just don't agree with your analysis of the Scarab.

Hmmm sorta. I re-read what you said, and I think we are indeed disagreeing, but it's not really on the Scarab itself.

I think the point where we're disagreeing is on whether it should be "on the player" to avoid so much of the damage the Scarab takes on normal usage.

You're basically saying "it's on the player to avoid the damage" (which I think comes naturally to an SRV racer like you), while on the other hand I'm saying "the Scarab should be sturdier even in the hands of more careless or inexperienced players" (because not everyone using the SRV is there for the challenge and driving mastery; a lot of people are just using it to explore, as a means to an end, instead of "the driving" being an end in itself).

And in that sense, I think we'd end up "agreeing to disagree" XD (which is why I'd like so much for this game to both have a more "terrain-proof" SRV for explorers, and a more "mastery-sensitive" racing SRV for the speed daredevils, aside from the current Scarab and Scorpion).