General / Off-Topic The Covid vaccine must be mandatory ?

[Sunyavadin]

I believe vaccined people spreading the Covid virus more often.

Statistically speaking, yes.
That bias is because most people are vaccinated, ergo most people with the virus are vaccinated.

Unfortunately many people get a false sense of security from being vaccinated and attend poorly ventilated indoor mass gatherings, and don't mask, etc, so as a result they catch and spread it more.

 

[R3aktor]

Are you testing for several days after you develop symptoms? The more recent strains, LFTs can often give false negatives for the first couple of days even while symptomatic.

As I said I tested myself several times when I had a flew and I also did tests several times for work and for concerts I gave. Never had Covid.

 

[Morbad]

No. I never said this. I literally said

"I already heard that kind of argumentation in history classes in Germany.
Society über alles,everyone got to work for the higher goal. There are historical examples for where this kind of thinking leads to."

And I'm still not sure what argument you think I'm making.

I believe vaccined people spreading the Covid virus more often.

In those areas where vaccination rates are very high? Sure, as a whole, when you have twenty vaccinated individuals for every non-vaccinated one, most SARS-CoV-2 will be spread by vaccinated people.

Per-capita, or where vaccination rates are less complete? Not a chance.

Are you testing for several days after you develop symptoms? The more recent strains, LFTs can often give false negatives for the first couple of days even while symptomatic.

This is how I nearly exposed my mother. What I thought were seasonal allergies turned out to be the initial stages of COVID, after three negative tests in a row. Only tested positive at the end of the third day, once I had a fever.

Still, if the antigen tests are coming back negative one should not be contagious, yet.

 

[R3aktor]

Statistically speaking, yes.
That bias is because most people are vaccinated, ergo most people with the virus are vaccinated.

Unfortunately many people get a false sense of security from being vaccinated and attend poorly ventilated indoor mass gatherings, and don't mask, etc, so as a result they catch and spread it more.

Based on logic

 

[R3aktor]

Per-capita, or where vaccination rates are less complete? Not a chance.

Please explain to me of what areas are you talking about, where people are less vaccined in western countries, when majority of people is vaccinated in every western country.
Did you just made this up from your own mind?

Man, that tests must be really sh*tty then.

But thanks for all your blessings. Yes. It's true
I really feel blessed for not suffering on Covid while I am unvaccinated. I am really a lucky one...I hope this keeps going for me.
I wish you all to stay healthy. Vaccinated or unvaccinated.

 

[Morbad]

Unfortunately many people get a false sense of security from being vaccinated and attend poorly ventilated indoor mass gatherings, and don't mask, etc, so as a result they catch and spread it more.

A large portion of those not vaccinated aren't vaccinated because they never believed the virus was a threat. So, in addition to not getting vaccinated, they don't believe in masks, or social distancing either. Those that took COVID-19 seriously got vaccinated and took other precautions.

Please explain to me of what areas are you talking about, where people are less vaccined in western countries, when majority of people is vaccinated in every western country.
Did you just made this up from your own mind?

The United States of America is a good example.

US Coronavirus vaccine tracker

Each state has a different plan — and different challenges — in distributing vaccines. Learn more about who is getting vaccinated by parsing the data by age, sex and race.

usafacts.org

Scroll down to the bottom and sort by vaccination rates. Only eleven out of fifty US states have two-dose vaccination rates over 75%. Exactly one has a majority of the population that's been boosted. There are twenty-three states where a quarter of the population or more hasn't had a single dose.

We know that vaccinated individuals, when exposed, are less likely to become infected and if infected are less likely to become symptomatic, as well as shed less virus for less time, than unvaccinated individuals. That means you need much more than a simple majority for it to be likely that vaccinated individuals are spreading the virus more.

Contrary to some (rather puzzling, IMO) assumptions, it's unvaccinated individuals that also take more risks with exposure: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/dashboard/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-dashboard/#masks

And no, I'm not making any of that up.

 

[R3aktor]

So okay. It's the unvaccinated... Is it true the the vaccination has to be renewed every 3 months otherwise people loose the status as vaccinated? So to be fully vaccinated that means... 3 years of pandemic.. Every three months. That's leads to 4 shots per year..multiplied by 3 years..so did you vaccinated yourself 12 times then?

And hey. Listen.. I really believe there is a Covid virus and there are tests (that are sh*Itty for whatever the reason is) and that vaccinations in general works, but I also know that usually when western countries invent new vaccinations, these stuff gets tested in poor countries first for reasons.

So interpreting from the text you posted there are still 23 states where the unvaccinated people are like 25-75 %. Wow that's precise
Or does that mean more like okay 30% then?

So you wanna know what going on in european parliament right now?
Turned out European governments ordered much too many doses, already throwed away vaccination doses.

How is a mandatory reasonable, if vaccinations already got thrown away, which means there is no use for the vaccination now?

 

[varonica]

So okay. It's the unvaccinated... Is it true the the vaccination has to be renewed every 3 months otherwise people loose the status as vaccinated?

No, maybe you should actually look up some data before committing words to virtual paper. In Australia at least, recommended number of vaccination plus booster shots is at 4, that's since the beginning of vaccine availability, a 5th shot is available for people in high risk categories, you don't lose your status as vaccinated, although depending on what and when you had the latest shot you may be more vulnerable to some of the newer strains of Covid.

but I also know that usually when western countries invent new vaccinations, these stuff gets tested in poor countries first for reasons.

Nope, that's manifestly untrue, not even a chance of it being true. Clinical trials have to be undertaken under strict and controlled conditions, for them to have any meaning they MUST be controlled absolutely, poor countries do not have the resources and staff to undertake mass vaccination trials, also the health system must be able to cope with any negative outcomes should the trial prove to be.....unsafe.....this level of health service is also generally not available in poor countries.

You really are spouting the most egregious of anti-vaccination talking point here. Clinical trials of vaccines simply cannot be held in poor countries because oversight of trial members and control of data to the extent that makes the trial valid is not possible.

 

[R3aktor]

you don't lose your status as vaccinated

As I said to you once before.. Please speak for yourself.
I am unvaccinated. How can I keep My vaccination status if I am unvaccinated?
Or did I misinterpreted this?

I really start enjoying this discussion. But to be honest i stopped reading your post after I was reading that one sentence from you which I quoted.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

That's because, I would surmise, your friends are not largely folks with various clinical vulnerabilities who were last able to go outside when we had solid mask mandates and the like helping keep infections to a safe level. Once they rocketed up into double digits and remained there, basically everyone who doesn't have options available due to being immunocompromised, having various conditions long covid massively exacerbates to severely disabling or life threatening degrees, etc. has effectiovely been unable to safely leave the house as a result of the lifting of even the most basic unintrusive precautions.

If this is the meaning you intended to communicate in the post I quoted, I would suggest that you left out a few key words and caveats.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Anyway, my stance on vaccination hasn't changed. Those who aren't getting vaccinated without a credible medical excuse are idiots whose willful ignorance is a threat to others.

In light of the recent announcement of the cessation of vaccine provision as of the end of next month, this will lead to an interesting situation where people you have deemed as idiots who are a threat to others, will have no recourse to do anything about it and will be forever condemned, no matter what change of heart they may undergo after that date. At that point it would also effectively be the state mandating the "bad" behaviour. Will the "good" choice then be to seek black market, unregulated sources? That's a hell of a moral responsibility to place on someone.

 

[Morbad]

In light of the recent announcement of the cessation of vaccine provision as of the end of next month, this will lead to an interesting situation where people you have deemed as idiots who are a threat to others, will have no recourse to do anything about it and will be forever condemned, no matter what change of heart they may undergo after that date. At that point it would also effectively be the state mandating the "bad" behaviour. Will the "good" choice then be to seek black market, unregulated sources? That's a hell of a moral responsibility to place on someone.

I'd have thought my opinion was clearly directed only at willful refusal to accept a safe and effective vaccine that was made readily available to them. If one cannot get these vaccines through no fault of their own, that would obviously be a different matter. Indeed, I specifically stated as such in this very thread, in a prior post in response to you.

A vaccine that is too expensive, requires excessive travel, requires a process that needlessly compromises one's privacy, or whose provenance cannot be ascertained with reasonable certainty is not readily available. This should all be a given.

That said, I see exactly zero connection between adherence to law in-and-of-itself and morality. I have at least as much a duty to defy unjust law as I do to obey just ones. My stance on governance as a whole is that it should be used as sparingly as possible and I consider most laws in most places to be overreach, only to be adhered to if I was going to do so anyway, or if both the odds of being caught breaking them and the punishment for breaking them are too great (I have no desire to martyr myself for things well beyond my control).

 

[varonica]

As I said to you once before.. Please speak for yourself.
I am unvaccinated. How can I keep My vaccination status if I am unvaccinated?

You never gad a vaccinated status so you can't lose it, see how easy and logical that is? You can't keep vaccinated status because you never had it, see. logic 101

I don't see the difficulty here.

Natural immunity lol. It's estimated that between 75 million and 200 million people died of the black death in Europe during the height of the plague, you do realise that same plague bacillus is still around today and it's only vaccinations and sanitary and medical advances that have kept it in check. Natural immunity is no replacement for vaccination for novel and/or historic stains of virus and bacteria that we no longer experience in the community, you can only get natural immunity by catching it, and if the morbidity is that high then millions upon millions will indeed die just as they did back then.

 

[metatheurgist]

People that operate on "lived experience" have no idea what kind of hellhole people lived in before antibiotics, vaccines and clinically trialed medical treatment existed.

 

[Arioch]

People that operate on "lived experience" have no idea what kind of hellhole people lived in before antibiotics, vaccines and clinically trialed medical treatment existed.

Walking around my town’s old graveyard looking for one of my ancestors was a real eye-opener - the amount of dead babies and young children

Didn’t see any from the 20th Century onwards for some reason…

 

[varonica]

People that operate on "lived experience" have no idea what kind of hellhole people lived in before antibiotics, vaccines and clinically trialed medical treatment existed.

Yeah, the lived experience back then was that you had lots of children in the hope that some would live to grow up, the mortality rate for children in medieval times hovered around 50% in most European countries and one in twenty women died during childbirth.

 

[R3aktor]

 

[Chaparral]

Same concerns as everyone, but those who refuse to take basic precautions to protect their health, and by extension the health of those they come into contact with, are willfully making this more difficult for everyone, irrespective of any legal restrictions or requirements.

I suppose you would police anyone with the wrong diet (since that impacts health care costs and availability), or driving an IC car, or buying clothing from a country using a coal fired powerplant, or using anything with a lithium ion battery constructed with cobalt slave labor from Congo because those things voluntarily hurt others. The act of being alive damages others - so I guess the only logical thing to do to protect others is self-deletion. Count me as illogical I suppose.

Unless you are of advanced age, and or have substantial comorbidities COVID is simply not that big a risk to your health. Locking people in their homes, pulling kids out of school for months on end, trashing the economy and hyperinflating the currency have far more damaging effects on health globally. Are the negative risks of RNA vaccines zero? No. Mandatory COVID vaccination and the other government over-reaches are a cytokine storm of the health industrial complex.

The WHO is so excited about the next pandemic they are beating the fear drum continuously, and there is the exciting opportunity to link the whole thing to climate change fear mongering.

Let's take a step back from the social creditization of authoritarian compliance and try to understand that people thrive on freedom, choice, and active positive engagement. You want positive health choices, fine - incentivize them, but don't line them up and unperson them if they don't comply.

 

[Morbad]

I suppose you would police anyone

You're confusing me calling out people for their willful stupidity with suggesting they be prevented from it.

I will defend their right to be as moronic as they please, right up until they cross a threshold, that is probably higher than yours, for the harm that behavior causes me. However, I will point out how profoundly dumb they are every step of the way.

the wrong diet (since that impacts health care costs and availability), or driving an IC car, or buying clothing from a country using a coal fired powerplant, or using anything with a lithium ion battery constructed with cobalt slave labor from Congo because those things voluntarily hurt others. The act of being alive damages others - so I guess the only logical thing to do to protect others is self-deletion. Count me as illogical I suppose.

I definitely count you as illogical for thinking that most cases of these things are voluntary and failing to distinguish between reasonable accommodation and the logical extremes of preventing harm to others.

If you need a concise summation of my position, I'll use my favorite Jefferson quote: "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."

There are unavoidable costs to a comfortable existence. It's the wholly avoidable and hypocritical ones I'm lambasting people for inflicting upon others.

Unless you are of advanced age, and or have substantial comorbidities COVID is simply not that big a risk to your health.

This is false, especially relative to the risks of precautions I'm suggesting.

Locking people in their homes, pulling kids out of school for months on end, trashing the economy and hyperinflating the currency have far more damaging effects on health globally.

I have not once stated or implied that I thought the US response to the pandemic was a good one.

Are the negative risks of RNA vaccines zero?

No one has claimed they are.

What is fact as certain as anything is fact, is that if you aren't an abject recluse and don't have specific medical contraindications, the risks of any of the approved COVID-19 vaccines (mRNA or otherwise) are orders of magnitude less than the risk of COVID-19.

Mandatory COVID vaccination and the other government over-reaches are a cytokine storm of the health industrial complex.

This overly complex metaphor gives the 'health industrial complex' too much credit. Regardless, I'm no fan of government overreach or big pharma...but that doesn't mean I'll support baseless attacks on the vaccine product itself.

The WHO is so excited about the next pandemic they are beating the fear drum continuously, and there is the exciting opportunity to link the whole thing to climate change fear mongering.

The risks you're dismissing are quite real, as the response you deride should have made evident. If we were so unprepared to handle a relatively modest pathogen that it can simultaneously kill a million people in this country while the response itself can still cause as much social and economic damage as it has, what the hell do you think will happen when and if something significantly more serious (which is a distinct possibility) comes along?

Climate change is entirely off topic to this discussion, but again, not really fear mongering. Near future human induced climate change is going to kill more people and do more damage to economies than anything the world has ever seen.

Let's take a step back from the social creditization of authoritarian compliance and try to understand that people thrive on freedom, choice, and active positive engagement. You want positive health choices, fine - incentivize them, but don't line them up and unperson them if they don't comply.

If free augmentations to one's immunity, less time spent sick, less economic disruption, and fewer excuses for authoritarian types to restrict freedom isn't incentive enough, nothing is.

And since positive health choices are a lost cause for huge swaths of people, I may as well take what sardonic entertainment I can from the dark comedy that is human idiocy.

 

[R3aktor]

and let's remember the WHO has a history about corruption.
Just mentioning because of the moral standards of some individuals while defending corrupt organizations... like me defending FIFA

so anyways..I hope to get an answer to my questions how mandatories are reasonable despite the fact that governments started to throw away vaccinations.

so yea...I guess real reconize real,genius recognize genius, idiots recognize idiots.

I realized there are many variables when it's about vaccinations, tests and restrictions
If spaceships were build with that many variables...man,i would pray for the astronauts souls.

its easy to blame people as idiots or anti vaccination tin foil hatters these days like it's easy to blame people as toxic...but ever thought about that maybe its the unanswered or not logical answered questions that leads to people questioning the mandatory?
every unanswered question contains an answer.


what I learned from history is to be aware if a group of people gets the blame.
that's what I meant when referring to what I learned in history classes
( but you are free to interpret from your own ego)

but one thing is for sure...pandemic revealed the true face of individuals of so called "society"...
(I know..there are ways to make people feel bad about themself and their decisions to make people change their mind)