General / Off-Topic The Covid vaccine must be mandatory ?

[Morbad]

Just mentioning because of the moral standards of some individuals defending corrupt organizations...

Defending a rational, fact-based, independently verified, recommendations, or demonstrably useful products, is not the same as defending whatever corruption may have been involved in their discovery, compilation, or creation.

If you need a morally unassailable source for everything, you'll have nothing.

I realized there are many variables when it's about vaccinations, tests and restrictions
If spaceships were build with that many variables...man,i would pray for the astronauts souls.

If anything manned spaceflight has more and less well understood variables, which is reflected in the fact that risks are vastly higher and much harder to anticipate.

There have been about six-hundred hundred astronauts (by the NASA definition) in human history. At least nineteen of them died on a spacecraft and/or during a spaceflight. This is about a 3% fatality rate. No vaccine in remotely modern history comes within multiple orders of magnitude of that...even the tainted Polio vaccine debacle of 1955 that is oft cited by anti-vaxxers had a fatality rate of about 0.0004%.

its easy to blame people as idiots or anti vaccination tin foil hatters these days like it's easy to blame people as toxic...but ever thought about that maybe its the unanswered or not logical answered questions that leads to people questioning the mandatory?

The question of vaccine vs. pathogen safety was satisfactorily answered to any logical, reasonable, definition before these vaccines had approval.

Even those most vehemently against mandates should avoid trying to raise questions about vaccine safety because that can only undermine their position. A false justification is worse than no justification.

When I'm arguing against nanny state laws mandating that adults be required to wear seat belts or bicycle helmets, I sure as hell don't claim that not wearing seat belts or helmets is less dangerous than wearing them, because that's an utterly indefensible position that would only make me sound ridiculous. Same premise here.

Even if we have the exact same outward goals, someone that proffers a blatantly false rationale is just going to make me think they have fundamentally incompatible values and would change their mind to oppose me if they knew anything. They aren't reliable allies if their first line of reasoning is nonsense. Someone claims these vaccines are dangerous, instead of lauding the importance of personal liberty, I'm think that they must not actually care about freedom or liberty, and are instead trying to impose security against a non-existent threat. I don't want to be associated with these people and I don't want these people in control of anything because if they ever find out that disease actually is the greater threat, they are going flip their positions and come down like a hammer with harsher mandates, probably for something completely unrelated to the perceived problem. Happens all the time on all sorts of issues.

At the end of the day I'd rather have someone disagree with my position for the right reasons than agree with me due to a fallacy. At least I know where these people actually stand.

 

[R3aktor]

Defending a rational, fact-based, independently verified, recommendations, or demonstrably useful products, is not the same as defending whatever corruption may have been involved in their discovery, compilation, or creation.

If you need a morally unassailable source for everything, you'll have nothing.



If anything manned spaceflight has more and less well understood variables, which is reflected in the fact that risks are vastly higher and much harder to anticipate.

There have been about six-hundred hundred astronauts (by the NASA definition) in human history. At least nineteen of them died on a spacecraft and/or during a spaceflight. This is about a 3% fatality rate. No vaccine in remotely modern history comes within multiple orders of magnitude of that...even the tainted Polio vaccine debacle of 1955 that is oft cited by anti-vaxxers had a fatality rate of about 0.0004%.



The question of vaccine vs. pathogen safety was satisfactorily answered to any logical, reasonable, definition before these vaccines had approval.

Even those most vehemently against mandates should avoid trying to raise questions about vaccine safety because that can only undermine their position. A false justification is worse than no justification.

When I'm arguing against nanny state laws mandating that adults be required to wear seat belts or bicycle helmets, I sure as hell don't claim that not wearing seat belts or helmets is less dangerous than wearing them, because that's an utterly indefensible position that would only make me sound ridiculous. Same premise here.

Even if we have the exact same outward goals, someone that proffers a blatantly false rationale is just going to make me think they have fundamentally incompatible values and would change their mind to oppose me if they knew anything. They aren't reliable allies if their first line of reasoning is nonsense. Someone claims these vaccines are dangerous, instead of lauding the importance of personal liberty, I'm think that they must not actually care about freedom or liberty, and are instead trying to impose security against a non-existent threat. I don't want to be associated with these people and I don't want these people in control of anything because if they ever find out that disease actually is the greater threat, they are going flip their positions and come down like a hammer with harsher mandates, probably for something completely unrelated to the perceived problem. Happens all the time on all sorts of issues.

At the end of the day I'd rather have someone disagree with my position for the right reasons than agree with me due to a fallacy. At least I know where these people actually stand.

you are free to make up your own mind to justify yourself as fighting for the "good reasons"

 

[Morbad]

you are free to make up your own mind to justify yourself as fighting for the "good reasons"

Indeed.

And those fighting for the wrong reasons are free to undermine both of our positions with their falsehoods.

 

[R3aktor]

Indeed.

And those fighting for the wrong reasons are free to undermine both of our positions with their falsehoods.

why is this question still unanswered?

"so anyways..I hope to get an answer to my questions how mandatories are reasonable despite the fact that governments started to throw away vaccinations."
( i noticed this question was already ignored 3 times)

Values...yea..everyone has his own values constructed by their own ego.
everyone is god,the creator of his own reality and so on and so on.
and that all begins with the question "who am I...why am I the way I am?
everyone should ask this himself when it's about values or morality or society standards of behavior

(lol...funny how people referring to everyone, no one, one, etc etc..I guess even for that there are reasons for but that's probably more worth a philosophical/psychological debate...thats almost as funny as psychological contains the word psycho)

 

[Morbad]

why is this question still unanswered?

"so anyways..I hope to get an answer to my questions how mandatories are reasonable despite the fact that governments started to throw away vaccinations."

There are two premises in your question that make it unanswerable, for me:

1. That I think it's reasonable to make vaccines mandatory, without clarification of the context in which I might tolerate mandatory vaccination (as a general rule, I won't).
2. That 'governments throwing away vaccines', has any bearing on whether mandatory vaccinations would be reasonable, without clarifying why they are being thrown away (oversupply, expiration of stock, etc), or if it's done anything to their availability (I've already mentioned that it's not reasonable to take a vaccine one cannot readily get).

 

[R3aktor]

There are two premises in your question that make it unanswerable, for me:

1. That I think it's reasonable to make vaccines mandatory, without clarification of the context in which I might tolerate mandatory vaccination (as a general rule, I won't).
2. That 'governments throwing away vaccines', has any bearing on whether mandatory vaccinations would be reasonable, without clarifying why they are being thrown away (oversupply, expiration of stock, etc), or if it's done anything to their availability (I've already mentioned that it's not reasonable to take a vaccine one cannot readily get).

Fair enough

 

[Arioch]

Smallpox killed hundreds of millions of people over human history - it killed more folks in the 20th Century than the World Wars ever did. It would kill 1 in 3 of those infected.

We started vaccinating against it just over 200 years ago. Rumours circulated at the time that it would turn people into cows (At least these days we’re sensible and only claim vaccines contain 5G nanochip tracking killswitches and stuff)

We vaccinated smallpox away after a global drive post WW2.

I have a vaccine scar* so that my daughter didn’t have to.

Seeing the rise of antivax misinformation and old diseases like measles making a comeback is just depressing. So much good work undone. I was rewatching Excalibur the other night and one of my favourite Merlin lines is very apt:

“…for it is the doom of men that they forget!”

*actually 2 - curtesy of the Royal Navy “just wanting to make sure”

 

[R3aktor]

Smallpox killed hundreds of millions of people over human history - it killed more folks in the 20th Century than the World Wars ever did. It would kill 1 in 3 of those infected.

We started vaccinating against it just over 200 years ago. Rumours circulated at the time that it would turn people into cows (At least these days we’re sensible and only claim vaccines contain 5G nanochip tracking killswitches and stuff)

We vaccinated smallpox away after a global drive post WW2.

I have a vaccine scar* so that my daughter didn’t have to.

Seeing the rise of antivax misinformation and old diseases like measles making a comeback is just depressing. So much good work undone. I was rewatching Excalibur the other night and one of my favourite Merlin lines is very apt:

“…for it is the doom of men that they forget!”

*actually 2 - curtesy of the Royal Navy “just wanting to make sure”

yea...but there is a history about vaccination testing on humans resulted in deaths or illnesses caused by vaccinations. (f.e vaccinations for measles, polio, swineflu 2013 which led to narcolepsy for vaccinated people, the Alzheimer vaccination test was completely cancelled after the first results with heavy complications).

i am not anti vaccinations. but I know it usually takes decades to make a vaccination harmless for humans.
there is always a price to pay to make scientific progress.
so when talking about misinformations I think this stuff should be mentioned too, cause I agree that there is a lot of misinformations about vaccinations independently from being pro vaccination or anti vaccination.
when its about the WHO I guess only few people know about the involments of Pharma companies and corruption.
These informations can be found on the web presence of Transparency international

I mean...don't get me wrong... if saying the vaccination saved lives then it's also okay to say dropping nukes on Hiroshima saved the lives of 5 million soldiers.
How will society deal with people who lost relatives caused by vaccinations?
By sending apologize letters & thanking the people for their relatives being martyrs in name of science, who died for a good reason?Flags to the families?
By denying that there are any side effects that can lead to serious damage to individuals?
I think this is really worth a debate.

I chose to be alone, so I don't have kids. I know you are standing up for your own interest as I am standing up for my own interests.
so to be honest I don't care about the interest of people having families. but I accept their interests.


i apologize for my English "skills"

 

[Arioch]

yea...but there is a history about vaccination testing on humans resulted in deaths or illnesses caused by vaccinations. (f.e vaccinations for measles, polio, swineflu 2013 which led to narcolepsy for vaccinated people, the Alzheimer vaccination test was completely cancelled after the first results with heavy complications).

i am not anti vaccinations. but I know it usually takes decades to make a vaccination harmless for humans.
there is always a price to pay to make scientific progress.
so when talking about misinformations I think this stuff should be mentioned too, cause I agree that there is a lot of misinformations about vaccinations independently from being pro vaccination or anti vaccination

I mean...don't get me wrong... if saying the vaccination saved lives then it's also okay to say dropping nukes on Hiroshima saved the live of 5 millions soldiers.
How will society deal with people who lost relatives caused by vaccinations?
By sending apologize letters & thanking the people for their relatives being martyrs in name of science, who died for a good reason?
I think this is really worth a debate.


i apologize for my English "skills"

A large amount of work required for the current COVID vaccines was carried out over 20 years ago when it was thought SARS was going to kick off big style - it never did so the work was put to one side. When the current pandemic started a lot of very smart people and a lot of money was thrown at the existing work and we got our vaccines.

I don’t believe we have something worthy of a debate here - thoughts and feelings are no match for science; vaccination works, it saves lives. I listened to a subject matter expert (decades of experience, international committee level) on COVID as part of a court case I was a juror for: the chances of having serious/fatal side effects from the vaccine are so small as to be negligible.

The majority of arguments I see against vaccination boil down to:

• “I don’t wanna / you can’t make me”
• “I’m scared it’ll turn me into a cow” (or modern day equivalent)

People whose medical conditions mean they cannot have the vaccine have the only valid complaint in my opinion, and due to the selfishness/ignorance of others their lives are restricted.

And comparing saving lives through vaccination to nuclear atrocities? Really?

 

[R3aktor]

I don’t wanna / you can’t make me

well if you see it that way...I guess that's has more to do with yourself than me
feel free to get vaccinated as often you want if you believe in this. freedom of personal believes is every human right in this hemisphere.

hey saving lives was an argument for dropping nukes, when the decision was made to drop the bombs...that's a historic fact.
Saving lives was also a reason to free Germany from facism.
Saving lives was also a reason that Nato took part in my homelands war from Balkan.
The reasons justify the method,right?

if you don't believe this, feel free to google...the informations are all out there.

so if you don't believe this is worthy to discuss then feel free to leave this discussion.
who do you mean when referring to we?

ah cool...during (already before) the pandemic I was suffering on infections which doctors couldn't diagnose for 5 years. so I am glad I healed myself somehow, but so I am good with not being vaccinated ...cool bro, thanks for justifying my reasons.

Ah you mean the Sars Cov1 outbreak from 2002? yea I remember there were complications during the vaccine testing. I will google that right now.
I think the side effects for people who suffer on post vac syndrome or died are at a rate of 100%
How is that reasonable?
"Hey congrats ,sorry for the side effects, you are one of the lucky 1%. But hey it's all for the families".

 

[Arioch]

well if you see it that way...I guess that's has more to do with yourself than me
feel free to get vaccinated as often you want if you believe in this. freedom of personal believes is every human right in this hemisphere.

hey saving lives was an argument for dropping nukes, when the decision was made to drop the bombs...that's a historic fact.
Saving lives was also a reason to free Germany from facism.
Saving lives was also a reason that Nato took part in my homelands war from Balkan.
The reasons justify the method,right?

if you don't believe this, feel free to google...the informations are all out there.

so if you don't believe this is worthy to discuss then feel free to leave this discussion.
who do you mean when referring to we?

ah cool...during (already before) the pandemic I was suffering on infections which doctors couldn't diagnose for 5 years. so I am glad I healed myself somehow, but so I am good with not being vaccinated ...cool bro, thanks for justifying my reasons.

Ah you mean the Sars Cov1 outbreak from 2002? yea I remember there were complications during the vaccine testing. I will google that right now.
I think the side effects for people who suffer on post vac syndrome or died are at a rate of 100%
How is that reasonable?
"Hey congrats ,sorry for the side effects, you are one of the lucky 1%. But hey it's all for the families".

I’ve nibbled at the hook long enough and have no wish to bite.

We’re done here.

I hope you never get infected and (even more so) I hope you never infect anyone else.

 

[R3aktor]

I’ve nibbled at the hook long enough and have no wish to bite.

We’re done here.

I hope you never get infected and (even more so) I hope you never infect anyone else.

you mean you are done here?I still don't know who you are talking about when referring to "we". Am I talking to more than one person right now?
I wish you a good day and a healthy life.
Good bye.
Thanks.
I appreciate the fact that you wish for me to stay healthy. My thanks for this.
that means you have the ability to do something, what many forum users can't.

 

[[VR] Mad Life Crisis]

I wonder how many people, that pointed fingers, gave names to, insulted, accused of irresponsilbele criminality, said' 'Follow The Science', are now going to back track and say something along the lines of: 'I was going along with the 'best information' that I had and acted (attacked and shamed others) accordingly. The 'best information' is the truth, and if you don't know the truth, then you should stop right there. Clearly these people didn't know the truth; they sloganeered and marched to the piper's call. In those years people lost their jobs and were treated like medieval witches for refusing medical interventions. They were told by big TV news ( 'news';that's a joke) companies, that they were risking other peoples lives by not having those measures taken on their own bodies. In other words: Complicit to murder. What disgusting traetment of people that think (or act upon things) differently.

I hope that, as the data is revealed, and more emerges, people remember this period in our history, and act toward those with a different opinion with open ears, rather than shout over them, repeat slogans, make them unemployed, and throw out accusations and act like sheep, with enough repect to listen to them

 

[R3aktor]

I learned from this people. Whenever I'll do something wrong I'll be like "'I was going along with the 'best information' that I had. My apologize. This world is the best possible world of all possible worlds.. This world is perfect like I am perfect and anyone else who agrees.I never do mistakes, but If I do a mistake it wasn a mistake. It was the best that I know. ". Awesome role models these people...

 

[Morbad]

yea...but there is a history about vaccination testing on humans resulted in deaths or illnesses caused by vaccinations. (f.e vaccinations for measles, polio, swineflu 2013 which led to narcolepsy for vaccinated people, the Alzheimer vaccination test was completely cancelled after the first results with heavy complications).

A point that's been address and thoroughly debunked, repeatedly.

That Alzheimer's vaccine was never approved, and would never have been approved in the circumstances where vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 were. Alzheimer's has a 100% fatality rate and there is potential for vast profits for whoever can find a working vaccine against it, yet no candidates have passed muster. So yeah, zero relevance as a comparison point for the dangers of vaccines that passed unabbreviated safety testing (which all the currently approved COVID-19 vaccines have) then were used with a very low rate of serious side effects hundreds of millions to billions of times (those same vaccines).

Of the vaccines mentioned that actually made it through safety trials, the Polio vaccine was the most dangerous as large batches of that Polio vaccine were tainted with live, unattenuated virus. It was a disaster, but it still only killed five of one-hundred twenty thousand people it was administered to.

The swine flu vaccine is barely even worth mentioning; you're talking about three-hundred cases of narcolepsy out of 60-90 million doses.

The entire angle of vaccines being dangerous is baseless and not valid position from which to argue against them.

I wonder how many people, that pointed fingers, gave names to, insulted, accused of irresponsilbele criminality, said' 'Follow The Science', are now going to back track

In the case of COVID-19 vaccines, almost zero, because the understanding that lead to these vaccines even being considered has been borne out every step of the way. We've certainly gained a finer understanding of the nuances and variables that could not have been properly accounted for in development and testing, but nothing of that would change the fundamental assessment of 'is being vaccinated better for personal and public health than not being vaccinated' one iota. Even if the vaccine were a hundred times as dangerous as observed, it would still be a binary choice in favor of vaccination.

I hope that, as the data is revealed, and more emerges, people remember this period in our history, and act toward those with a different opinion with open ears, rather than shout over them, repeat slogans, make them unemployed, and throw out accusations and act like sheep, with enough repect to listen to them

Not all opinions are equal. Many are objectively false and not worthy of respect.

The premise that these vaccines are more dangerous than not being vaccinated for the overwhelming majority of people is on the same level of absurdity as Flat Earth. Someone tries to convince me the Earth is flat, and the discussion ends right there. No one is really harmed by a Flat Earther's idiot opinion; unless they are a civil engineer or something. Unfortunately, false opinions about contagious disease don't just have the potential to harm those who hold these opinions.

Anyway, that's why this discussion over merits and demerits of mandatory vaccination has barely even gotten off the ground after three hundred pages...there are still people insisting the facts aren't the facts, who are incapable of separating propaganda from actual information, have zero grasp of probabilities, who cannot manage even basic arithmetic, and who think those who can are the sheep.

Once we can get past the basic facts of what is, then we can discuss what, if anything should be done. Until then, the perceptions of those living in a fantasy world have little bearing on discussions of reality.

I learned from this people. Whenever I'll do something wrong I'll be like "'I was going along with the 'best information' that I had.

But you aren't. You have better information, you're just ignoring it, or are incapable of grasping even it's most basic implications.

 

[R3aktor]

So you just don't care about as along as you ain't affected. Cool story, bro...

You have better information

Thanks.

 

[Chaparral]

Smallpox killed hundreds of millions of people over human history - it killed more folks in the 20th Century than the World Wars ever did. It would kill 1 in 3 of those infected.

We started vaccinating against it just over 200 years ago. Rumours circulated at the time that it would turn people into cows (At least these days we’re sensible and only claim vaccines contain 5G nanochip tracking killswitches and stuff)

We vaccinated smallpox away after a global drive post WW2.

I have a vaccine scar* so that my daughter didn’t have to.

Seeing the rise of antivax misinformation and old diseases like measles making a comeback is just depressing. So much good work undone. I was rewatching Excalibur the other night and one of my favourite Merlin lines is very apt:

“…for it is the doom of men that they forget!”

*actually 2 - curtesy of the Royal Navy “just wanting to make sure”

Smallpox mortality is orders of magnitude greater than the COVID, and the efficacy of the smallpox vaccine is extremely different than the COVID vaccine. This is a false analogy.

I too have the cowpox scar. I have taken all of the basic schedule of vaccines that offer protection not moderation. I definitely had my kids take the HPV vaccine, because avoidable cervical cancer is completely worth the negative side effect risk.

I would not however take another COVID booster. It's rapid mutation rate, its low mortality, and the high level of asymptomatic infection do not make the mandatory vaccination/booster/pfizer enrichment/government control worth it.

I'd rather fund voluntary private DNA tests for all citizenry, with an analysis of everyone's predisposition to a variety of illnesses made available to them so that they could voluntarily take productive action to promote healthy longevity. Lets go a step further and get everyone a gym membership, discount / subsidize healthy food, give people tax breaks for improved health metrics.

No, that isn't how health bureaucrats think. That is not how the health industrial complex thinks. Here in the US, they want everyone on a statins, everyone on an SSRIs, everyone taking flu vaccines, everyone on some long term repetitive drug therapy with a continuous flow of cash coming into the pharm industry. The mild mutating disease that they can "moderate" is an ideal cash cow. The government loves this sort of thing, the slow erosion of choice and agency.

You might trust your UK government to be independent of corruption and industrial influence, but here in the US it is part of the game. The only thing that is new about the don't trust the government loop is that where it used to be the left that was questioning authority, it is now the right.

 

[Chaparral]

Climate change is entirely off topic to this discussion, but again, not really fear mongering. Near future human induced climate change is going to kill more people and do more damage to economies than anything the world has ever seen.

Off topic I agree, but I do think it is magical thinking that "climate change" will cause population threatening pandemics. Life has done just fine with a much more variable and higher temperatures.

It is much more likely that a hyper reactive cancellation of fossil fuels and industries dependent on fossil fuels (such as agriculture, transportation of goods and water treatment) will cause mass starvation, migration, disease and suffering.

There are so many more positive health choice government interventions besides mandatory RNA vaccines that could be pursued - I do not understand the fascination with this one requirement imposed on people. This is an ever mutating bug with a high asymptomatic infection incidence and low mortality.

The benefit is so modest relative to pro-heart healthy interventions like incentivizing exercise or subsidizing healthy food or annual physical check up reimbursements. Heart disease is the thing that kills the most people. Weird.

 

[EdzUp]

I am surprised that this topic is still going me personally would have locked it ages ago

 

[Ozric]

The team have have been discussing this thread the last few days and the decision has been made to close it. It has long ceased to be what it was originally for and as now people seem to have also forgotten how to speak to others, then it has run it's course. If you're going to post elsewhere on this forum, then act better.