Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12
- Thread starter Yaffle
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Yes I think you should. You don't seem to have understood a single word that's been said to you. Impressive!
These words, for example, directly addressed your argument and provided a basis for discussion:
The problem here is that your first principle is flawed. Plenty of SC bugs don't stem from server issues. (NPCs & characters seem to 'rubberise' due to rigging issues with the unified avatar. Boxes collide fatally with ramps because they're using two distinct systems which struggle to align data, IE the physics system vs a teleporting animation. Etc etc.)
Some of these things can be exacerbated by server perf, but it is not their root cause.
Now add in that shifting calculation to the client doesn't magically guarantee it will run performantly. (Running those 80 persistent crew isn't cheap etc).
Now add in that CIG seem to have pursued a 'multiplayer first' approach to their architecture (with SC as the public facing 'proof of concept' which has pulled in the big bucks for a decade), so getting it to play nice and efficiently with an offline environment isn't a given.
And it's not so straightforward. But keep repeating your 'just so' story if you like
But instead you prefer to run around various loops of your own invention.
Not sure what you think such transparent trolling is achieving, but have fun running in circles I guess. ¯\(ツ)/¯
Funny thing is, AFAIR the first persistence "solution" CI came up with, was dropping PostgreSQL servers to AWS EC2 instances running game servers. *
I KID YOU NOT
I could appreciate "the startup spirit" of this move but those people figured out their monetisation pipelines long before they started any serious thinking about what could be needed for a game they sold many times over already.
* I can elaborate if anyone is interested
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Talking of monetisation pipelines! I took a scoot through this Q&A with their COO...
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aKLh18TPpE&t=74s
Top lines would be:
Top lines would be:
- All the publishers Chris originally approached said no.
- (This is well known, but think it's the first time I've heard it from an official source.)
- CIG assumed all the initial multi-tier purchases were bugged.
- IE they thought purchases of the $100 tier was auto-charging for all of the lesser tiers too.
- It was actually because backers were buying all of the tiers, to own all of the ships...
- That's where they realised 'We're doing this in a different way.... the world that we're building has value for them'
- Classically games focus on 'Class A crashing bugs', but CIG have found players can work around those. So they focus on the most popular community reports, which major on gameplay and enjoyment.
- They'll get to the stability issues later.
- They've got 'AI' for pruning duplicate reports. [It should be called Knightrider ]
Intro: 2010 / 2011, he was at Crytek at the time etc. But Chris talking about tech being up to speed with his vision now.
1m15s - All the publishers Chris went to said no. It's a 90s game, nobody's interested in this etc.
- Sandi as the source of crowdfunding idea.
2m17s - They initially thought the site was bugged when indiv backers kept buying all the tiers. (They assumed it was a bug whereby all lower tiers were being charged for under larger purchase of $100 etc). But on reaching out the fans said no, they wanted the ship that came with each tier. The 'lightbulb moment' that they were 'doing things in a different way'. Half of their genesis. (Feels the other half was the 'absolute transparency' of letting people know what's happening with the project etc).
4m10s - Here they are with 500m in funding. Still completely transparent. Tell everyone how they spend the money, collect the money...
6m20s - Look at reddit and spectrum all the time. Find complaints often not true, and metrics show otherwise. (IE crit of a ship, which '75% of players are flying'). It all makes the community 'feel' like they're part of the process.
7m45s - The Issues Council. ('It's got some AI in it to make sure there's no duplication').D). [9m] Classically games focus on 'Class A crashing bugs'. Have found that their players can work around stability issues. They're fixing the ones they're complaining the most about instead, with gameplay elements normally getting the most upvotes. Will get to stability later. (Talks about how 'Customer Service agents' may not even be a person, but they still use people.)
11m20s - How do you judge useful feedback? It's not design by committee. They have 'events', and moments, where they invite feedback. IE Citizencon etc... [??]. Where they present some new live code and allow tests. But also need to look at metrics.
12m40s - Do devs feel overwhelmed? It's optional for devs to get involved with fan feedback etc. CIG have had their negative coverage etc.
13m50s - Chris is not a typical exec CEO. He reads all the comments, looks at the metrics etc. Uses that to inform design decisions. Have found now that the sandbox + tools = emergent gameplay. They saw racers, gave tools to users so they could put a start / finish line down. [NB the version that did this was removed - scramble races. Probably means the new time trial races.]
14m50s - Focusing om Manchester due to Chris's roots there... [general ramble about setting up Foundry 42 via Erin, needing staffing etc... suddenly pandemic... move to big city]. Says up to 600 people there now. Video Tax Credits have really helped them. By far the largest of their studios etc. Thinks they've taken Manchester over to being biggest city for gaming in UK, past Cambridge, Lemmington Spa etc.
Q&A:
18m10s - What do you look for in a Jnr developer? Passion for the project, first and foremost. Insist on in-office.
19m35s - Analytics for the game? Mostly in-house, via Turbulent etc. Then Tableau etc to visualise.... [20m45s] - Used to joke that there's no formula for making a good game, but thinks now there is with successful live service games reacting to metrics etc
21m+ Crowd funding now? Thinks it'd be a really exciting time. Epic giving you everything for free, Early Access is normal now. Unless it's a narrative game with spoilers [], wishes he'd been able to do it with some of his 'failures'. [Corrects to 'learning experiences' ]. Didn't get the feedback until the game was out.
22m15s - On IT support in house. Has grown massively to support larger dev pool. They just upgraded everyone to 4k monitors etc.
24m10s - on UK tax credits. Great system, v similar to prior film version.
25m05s - You gamified the bug fixing system. Have you gamified anything else? Yes, the 'economy system':
]
1m15s - All the publishers Chris went to said no. It's a 90s game, nobody's interested in this etc.
- Sandi as the source of crowdfunding idea.
2m17s - They initially thought the site was bugged when indiv backers kept buying all the tiers. (They assumed it was a bug whereby all lower tiers were being charged for under larger purchase of $100 etc). But on reaching out the fans said no, they wanted the ship that came with each tier. The 'lightbulb moment' that they were 'doing things in a different way'. Half of their genesis. (Feels the other half was the 'absolute transparency' of letting people know what's happening with the project etc).
4m10s - Here they are with 500m in funding. Still completely transparent. Tell everyone how they spend the money, collect the money...
6m20s - Look at reddit and spectrum all the time. Find complaints often not true, and metrics show otherwise. (IE crit of a ship, which '75% of players are flying'). It all makes the community 'feel' like they're part of the process.
7m45s - The Issues Council. ('It's got some AI in it to make sure there's no duplication').
D). [9m] Classically games focus on 'Class A crashing bugs'. Have found that their players can work around stability issues. They're fixing the ones they're complaining the most about instead, with gameplay elements normally getting the most upvotes. Will get to stability later. (Talks about how 'Customer Service agents' may not even be a person, but they still use people.)11m20s - How do you judge useful feedback? It's not design by committee. They have 'events', and moments, where they invite feedback. IE Citizencon etc... [??]. Where they present some new live code and allow tests. But also need to look at metrics.
12m40s - Do devs feel overwhelmed? It's optional for devs to get involved with fan feedback etc. CIG have had their negative coverage etc.
13m50s - Chris is not a typical exec CEO. He reads all the comments, looks at the metrics etc. Uses that to inform design decisions. Have found now that the sandbox + tools = emergent gameplay. They saw racers, gave tools to users so they could put a start / finish line down. [NB the version that did this was removed - scramble races. Probably means the new time trial races.]
14m50s - Focusing om Manchester due to Chris's roots there... [general ramble about setting up Foundry 42 via Erin, needing staffing etc... suddenly pandemic... move to big city]. Says up to 600 people there now. Video Tax Credits have really helped them. By far the largest of their studios etc. Thinks they've taken Manchester over to being biggest city for gaming in UK, past Cambridge, Lemmington Spa etc.
Q&A:
18m10s - What do you look for in a Jnr developer? Passion for the project, first and foremost. Insist on in-office.
19m35s - Analytics for the game? Mostly in-house, via Turbulent etc. Then Tableau etc to visualise.... [20m45s] - Used to joke that there's no formula for making a good game, but thinks now there is with successful live service games reacting to metrics etc
21m+ Crowd funding now? Thinks it'd be a really exciting time. Epic giving you everything for free, Early Access is normal now. Unless it's a narrative game with spoilers [
], wishes he'd been able to do it with some of his 'failures'. [Corrects to 'learning experiences' ]. Didn't get the feedback until the game was out.22m15s - On IT support in house. Has grown massively to support larger dev pool. They just upgraded everyone to 4k monitors etc.
24m10s - on UK tax credits. Great system, v similar to prior film version.
25m05s - You gamified the bug fixing system. Have you gamified anything else? Yes, the 'economy system':
- When first started selling concept ships, gave out a loan ship.
- Players didn't want to have 2 of the same ship. So they moved to giving store credit matching purchase amount, which could be used to buy any ship.
- But players wanted to be able to get the original ship back. So allowed them to get it back.
- What if they want to get a bigger ship? Let them spend a little bit more to upgrade. Et etc...
]
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Talking of monetisation pipelines! I took a scoot through this Q&A with their COO...
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aKLh18TPpE&t=74s
Top lines would be:
- All the publishers Chris originally approached said no.
- (This is well known, but think it's the first time I've heard it from an official source.)
- CIG assumed all the initial multi-tier purchases were bugged.
- IE they thought purchases of the $100 tier was auto-charging for all of the lesser tiers too.
- It was actually because backers were buying all of the tiers, to own all of the ships...
- That's where they realised 'We're doing this in a different way.... the world that we're building has value for them'
- Classically games focus on 'Class A crashing bugs', but CIG have found players can work around those. So they focus on the most popular community reports, which major on gameplay and enjoyment.
- They'll get to the stability issues later.
- They've got 'AI' for pruning duplicate reports. [It should be called Knightrider
Intro: 2010 / 2011, he was at Crytek at the time etc. But Chris talking about tech being up to speed with his vision now.
1m15s - All the publishers Chris went to said no. It's a 90s game, nobody's interested in this etc.
- Sandi as the source of crowdfunding idea.
2m17s - They initially thought the site was bugged when indiv backers kept buying all the tiers. (They assumed it was a bug whereby all lower tiers were being charged for under larger purchase of $100 etc). But on reaching out the fans said no, they wanted the ship that came with each tier. The 'lightbulb moment' that they were 'doing things in a different way'. Half of their genesis. (Feels the other half was the 'absolute transparency' of letting people know what's happening with the project etc).
4m10s - Here they are with 500m in funding. Still completely transparent. Tell everyone how they spend the money, collect the money...
6m20s - Look at reddit and spectrum all the time. Find complaints often not true, and metrics show otherwise. (IE crit of a ship, which '75% of players are flying'). It all makes the community 'feel' like they're part of the process.
7m45s - The Issues Council. ('It's got some AI in it to make sure there's no duplication').
11m20s - How do you judge useful feedback? It's not design by committee. They have 'events', and moments, where they invite feedback. IE Citizencon etc... [??]. Where they present some new live code and allow tests. But also need to look at metrics.
12m40s - Do devs feel overwhelmed? It's optional for devs to get involved with fan feedback etc. CIG have had their negative coverage etc.
13m50s - Chris is not a typical exec CEO. He reads all the comments, looks at the metrics etc. Uses that to inform design decisions. Have found now that the sandbox + tools = emergent gameplay. They saw racers, gave tools to users so they could put a start / finish line down. [NB the version that did this was removed - scramble races. Probably means the new time trial races.]
14m50s - Focusing om Manchester due to Chris's roots there... [general ramble about setting up Foundry 42 via Erin, needing staffing etc... suddenly pandemic... move to big city]. Says up to 600 people there now. Video Tax Credits have really helped them. By far the largest of their studios etc. Thinks they've taken Manchester over to being biggest city for gaming in UK, past Cambridge, Lemmington Spa etc.
Q&A:
18m10s - What do you look for in a Jnr developer? Passion for the project, first and foremost. Insist on in-office.
19m35s - Analytics for the game? Mostly in-house, via Turbulent etc. Then Tableau etc to visualise.... [20m45s] - Used to joke that there's no formula for making a good game, but thinks now there is with successful live service games reacting to metrics etc
21m+ Crowd funding now? Thinks it'd be a really exciting time. Epic giving you everything for free, Early Access is normal now. Unless it's a narrative game with spoilers [
22m15s - On IT support in house. Has grown massively to support larger dev pool. They just upgraded everyone to 4k monitors etc.
24m10s - on UK tax credits. Great system, v similar to prior film version.
25m05s - You gamified the bug fixing system. Have you gamified anything else? Yes, the 'economy system':
Mentions communities discussion of 'savings' etc. [Wonder what their metrics are on that
- When first started selling concept ships, gave out a loan ship.
- Players didn't want to have 2 of the same ship. So they moved to giving store credit matching purchase amount, which could be used to buy any ship.
- But players wanted to be able to get the original ship back. So allowed them to get it back.
- What if they want to get a bigger ship? Let them spend a little bit more to upgrade. Et etc...
The same sort of system that Uwe Boll abused until Germany removed the system? The same sort of system CR abused in the US until he was sued by Kevin Costner? That sort of system is a good idea?
"...the creator is too far away from the consumer.." around 5 minutes in. Looks like the creator had been distancing himself once again.Talking of monetisation pipelines! I took a scoot through this Q&A with their COO...
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aKLh18TPpE&t=74s
Top lines would be:
- All the publishers Chris originally approached said no.
- (This is well known, but think it's the first time I've heard it from an official source.)
- CIG assumed all the initial multi-tier purchases were bugged.
- IE they thought purchases of the $100 tier was auto-charging for all of the lesser tiers too.
- It was actually because backers were buying all of the tiers, to own all of the ships...
- That's where they realised 'We're doing this in a different way.... the world that we're building has value for them'
- Classically games focus on 'Class A crashing bugs', but CIG have found players can work around those. So they focus on the most popular community reports, which major on gameplay and enjoyment.
- They'll get to the stability issues later.
- They've got 'AI' for pruning duplicate reports. [It should be called Knightrider
Intro: 2010 / 2011, he was at Crytek at the time etc. But Chris talking about tech being up to speed with his vision now.
1m15s - All the publishers Chris went to said no. It's a 90s game, nobody's interested in this etc.
- Sandi as the source of crowdfunding idea.
2m17s - They initially thought the site was bugged when indiv backers kept buying all the tiers. (They assumed it was a bug whereby all lower tiers were being charged for under larger purchase of $100 etc). But on reaching out the fans said no, they wanted the ship that came with each tier. The 'lightbulb moment' that they were 'doing things in a different way'. Half of their genesis. (Feels the other half was the 'absolute transparency' of letting people know what's happening with the project etc).
4m10s - Here they are with 500m in funding. Still completely transparent. Tell everyone how they spend the money, collect the money...
6m20s - Look at reddit and spectrum all the time. Find complaints often not true, and metrics show otherwise. (IE crit of a ship, which '75% of players are flying'). It all makes the community 'feel' like they're part of the process.
7m45s - The Issues Council. ('It's got some AI in it to make sure there's no duplication').
11m20s - How do you judge useful feedback? It's not design by committee. They have 'events', and moments, where they invite feedback. IE Citizencon etc... [??]. Where they present some new live code and allow tests. But also need to look at metrics.
12m40s - Do devs feel overwhelmed? It's optional for devs to get involved with fan feedback etc. CIG have had their negative coverage etc.
13m50s - Chris is not a typical exec CEO. He reads all the comments, looks at the metrics etc. Uses that to inform design decisions. Have found now that the sandbox + tools = emergent gameplay. They saw racers, gave tools to users so they could put a start / finish line down. [NB the version that did this was removed - scramble races. Probably means the new time trial races.]
14m50s - Focusing om Manchester due to Chris's roots there... [general ramble about setting up Foundry 42 via Erin, needing staffing etc... suddenly pandemic... move to big city]. Says up to 600 people there now. Video Tax Credits have really helped them. By far the largest of their studios etc. Thinks they've taken Manchester over to being biggest city for gaming in UK, past Cambridge, Lemmington Spa etc.
Q&A:
18m10s - What do you look for in a Jnr developer? Passion for the project, first and foremost. Insist on in-office.
19m35s - Analytics for the game? Mostly in-house, via Turbulent etc. Then Tableau etc to visualise.... [20m45s] - Used to joke that there's no formula for making a good game, but thinks now there is with successful live service games reacting to metrics etc
21m+ Crowd funding now? Thinks it'd be a really exciting time. Epic giving you everything for free, Early Access is normal now. Unless it's a narrative game with spoilers [
22m15s - On IT support in house. Has grown massively to support larger dev pool. They just upgraded everyone to 4k monitors etc.
24m10s - on UK tax credits. Great system, v similar to prior film version.
25m05s - You gamified the bug fixing system. Have you gamified anything else? Yes, the 'economy system':
Mentions communities discussion of 'savings' etc. [Wonder what their metrics are on that
- When first started selling concept ships, gave out a loan ship.
- Players didn't want to have 2 of the same ship. So they moved to giving store credit matching purchase amount, which could be used to buy any ship.
- But players wanted to be able to get the original ship back. So allowed them to get it back.
- What if they want to get a bigger ship? Let them spend a little bit more to upgrade. Et etc...
The part about community management with issues but not everyone experiencing it so its ok, could also be looked at as ignoring issues if community aren't vocal. So their strategy is to ignore bugs because players know what not to do and focus on other things. Then we know they stopped doing roadmaps when the community was vocal about deadlines and stuff.
11m20s
This is to me the problem with this whole project. They watch what the players are playing and "..why is nobody going to this corner of the UNIVERSE...", but he just talked about players knowing what not to do to prevent the game from crashing. The way I see this scenario is players realized going to say an asteroid will crash their game and avoid it. CIG watches players and knows there's a bug and possibly ignore the bug fixing to spend more time developing other "fun" features for the next Citcon. And they go by that strategy rather than "angry comments on reddit", so they don't listen to the community.
This is exactly why I'm against this company, development without a plan. I was afraid their system of game development would eventually become the standard, a lot like micro transaction has and it looks like its what they're planning.
It's a good system for Chris Roberts. Might be why their UK studio is the focus, it's the only one he can exploit.
I never understand how people accept the funding model. I mean us here talking nonsense on the internet, it's all a bit of a laugh, so hey-ho.
But then seeing the COO of the company speak with all the sincerity of Arthur Daley, basically saying people gave us idiotic money and ha ha ha ker-ching!
It might not have started as a scam ...
There is nothing to sell, so why would anyone keep doing it. There is no Sq42.
There is nothing. You cannot sell "nothing".
Random numbers? I do like the tone of the blue though.
Played all afternoon on one of the alts and no super big issues. One 30k. Although I was mostly trading and other mindless stuff.
Played the account a week or to ago and did the new user tutorial and thats it. Played it today and rented ships from the free fly thing.
This account has never flown a ship that is on the account.
And it has a million and a half after a few hours. Maybe 4 or 5 distracted hours. Ate something, watched the basketball playoffs etc.
We have had this conversation before, but if you know what you are doing you would never need to fly a starter ship. Could by a Cutlass Black in game right now if I wanted (and I might).
Played the account a week or to ago and did the new user tutorial and thats it. Played it today and rented ships from the free fly thing.
This account has never flown a ship that is on the account.
And it has a million and a half after a few hours. Maybe 4 or 5 distracted hours. Ate something, watched the basketball playoffs etc.
We have had this conversation before, but if you know what you are doing you would never need to fly a starter ship. Could by a Cutlass Black in game right now if I wanted (and I might).
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
Yeah, this is in part due to the lack of a more visible and objective view on the quality of the product. Something most games out there have but not SC. Most of the bugs and brokenness memes are well known primarily to us, the community, but by and large new prospective buyers only see shiny CIG promotional vids.
This is were widespread standard reviews and scores comes in. The abuse by the developer that you guys point out can be mitigated/controlled to a certain extent by these. A widespread and easily accessible notion that the product is crap would also often make many whales to think twice before spending more money on something that has been established and recognized more or less formally as crap.
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But is a noob gonna know what they're doing?Played all afternoon on one of the alts and no super big issues. One 30k. Although I was mostly trading and other mindless stuff.
Played the account a week or to ago and did the new user tutorial and thats it. Played it today and rented ships from the free fly thing.
This account has never flown a ship that is on the account.
And it has a million and a half after a few hours. Maybe 4 or 5 distracted hours. Ate something, watched the basketball playoffs etc.
We have had this conversation before, but if you know what you are doing you would never need to fly a starter ship. Could by a Cutlass Black in game right now if I wanted (and I might).
I’m liking the bouyant optimism in the face of all previous experience.
It’s refreshing.
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