Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[Intrepid3D]

Was with you until the last paragraph, but CIG are not the first to do this sort of thing, having players in different instances/regions and streaming things in and out.

Moreover, what CIG are delivering is still a far cry from what was initially pitched, with everyone on the same server.

Say what you like about ED, but playing in Open, you can go to the same location as another player and see them, whereas with SC, you go to the same location as another player, but they might be on a different server, so you'll never see them.

Take Ark for example. I can be riding a dino, and someone can be working the forge in my base on the back of my dino, and someone on the far side of the island has no idea about my dino or what is happening on it (the game client doesn't know as well). But as i ride my dino towards that other player, stuff gets streamed in and out, and when close enough, the other player will be able to see me, my dino, and the guy working the forge on my mobile base. Its pretty similar.

I'm sure there are a lot of examples of games that do this sort of thing.

PS: Multicrew dinos FTW!

Yes streaming assets in and out locally is nothing new, its been employed many time for games that are very large or have very high fidelity, or a combination of both, ultimately the reason being the whole thing does not fit inside memory.
Its based on the same technology but employed differently, ARC might be 30KM x 30KM, its a large map, its not a descaled solar system 70,000,000 KM x 70,000,000 KM where you're seeing a whole planet from 50,000 KM away and going right down to a blade of grass on its surface without instance loading, that's vastly different.

Say what you like about ED, but playing in Open, you can go to the same location as another player and see them.

You can see them because the location, IE not the player but the place, is its own instance, you're loading in to his instance.

whereas with SC, you go to the same location as another player, but they might be on a different server, so you'll never see them.

This is an example, where, and with the utmost respect, i'm not being funny with you here... i have to ask, have you even played SC?
If you load in to a game, you load into the same sever as your mate, should you chose to do so, there is only one server in this context, the server your mate is on.
No matter where he is, he could be on the opposite side of the system, he's on the same server, the one and only server, if i go to where he is i can see him, unless something is broken, which can and does happen and you can't see him, but that's a bug, he is there.

 

[Intrepid3D]

Take this for example, all the way through it, from still being in QT, right down to landing on the surface, is one uninterrupted motion of moving through real 3D space.
On going from orbit to surface there is no fancy entrance sequence that is a loadscreen, its just free flying, i could stop the ship, or even not stop the ship, get out of the chair, open the door and skydive to my death, because there is no instance loading anywhere at any point.
With that a crew mate can be doing whatever he wants in the ship at any and all points, he can open the door, at any point and jump out, even during QT, i would have to stop and fly back to the location he jumped out to get him, its real distance and space.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkhoYqs9imw

 

[Intrepid3D]

I'll explain it another way, you're in super cruse, you appear to be covering distance, planets and stars are moving past you, you can turn the ship and fly to where you want.
You are covering real distance, the stars and planets are real in the 3D sense, but they are in an instance that is separate to yours, you are in a super cruse instance.
You want to go to this space station over there.... its in a different instance, you approach it and watch your distance graph, you wait for it to enter the blue zone and you hold down J, there is a short delay and a fancy visual sequence, that is you loading from the super cruse instance to the space station instance, there is a noise and some theater and suddenly you pop in a set distance from the station, doesn't matter at what point you pressed J you always pop in to the same sort of place by the space station, because its taken you from one instance, and placed you in to another.

 

[thistle]

I'll explain it another way, you're in super cruse, you appear to be covering distance, planets and stars are moving past you, you can turn the ship and fly to where you want.
You are covering real distance, the stars and planets are real in the 3D sense, but they are in an instance that is separate to yours, you are in a super cruse instance.
You want to go to this space station over there.... its in a different instance, you approach it and watch your distance graph, you wait for it to enter the blue zone and you hold down J, there is a short delay and a fancy visual sequence, that is you loading from the super cruse instance to the space station instance, there is a noise and some theater and suddenly you pop in a set distance from the station, doesn't matter at what point you pressed J you always pop in to the same sort of place by the space station, because its taken you from one instance, and placed you in to another.

Which is eminently sensible.

 

[thistle]

It does make me laugh that instancing is so inferior compared to a game that was intending having cut scene planetary landings.

 

[Intrepid3D]

It does make me laugh that instancing is so inferior compared to a game that was intending having cut scene planetary landings.

Per the original Star Citizen proposition. That's not multiplayer and its certainly not an open world game. it is something that is simpler than Elite Dangerous Horizons, tho not the 2014 ED.

My point is simply that Star Citizen as it is today it needs to be a single instance game, no loadscreens.
It might be possible to do that when moving between systems, tho each player would have to be in a seat before going through the jumpgate.
they could make each seat and bed an instance log node and lock people in place going through the jumpgate, you wouldn't be able to have anyone out of a designated seat and no one would be able to get out of the seat while jumping.
And to me that's fine, i'm good with that.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Yes streaming assets in and out locally is nothing new, its been employed many time for games that are very large or have very high fidelity, or a combination of both, ultimately the reason being the whole thing does not fit inside memory.
Its based on the same technology but employed differently, ARC might be 30KM x 30KM, its a large map, its not a descaled solar system 70,000,000 KM x 70,000,000 KM where you're seeing a whole planet from 50,000 KM away and going right down to a blade of grass on its surface without instance loading, that's vastly different.

Its the same principle, just with a different scale. I know CIG plan to fragment systems using server meshing, but passing info and players between different servers isn't anything new either.

You can see them because the location, IE not the player but the place, is its own instance, you're loading in to his instance.

And? From the player's point of view, the tech is irrelevant.

This is an example, where, and with the utmost respect, i'm not being funny with you here... i have to ask, have you even played SC?
If you load in to a game, you load into the same sever as your mate, should you chose to do so, there is only one server in this context, the server your mate is on.
No matter where he is, he could be on the opposite side of the system, he's on the same server, the one and only server, if i go to where he is i can see him, unless something is broken, which can and does happen and you can't see him, but that's a bug, he is there.

Yes, i've played SC, although the experience left a sour taste in my mouth and i swore never to try it again.

But here you're twisting things, because you're talking about loading into the same server as your mate. I was talking about meeting anyone who is playing the game, regardless of whether they are your friend or not. On top, if the server your friend is on is full, you're not getting in, or, as things stand, if you are let in when its full, then that server isn't long for this world.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Was with you until the last paragraph, but CIG are not the first to do this sort of thing, having players in different instances/regions and streaming things in and out.

Moreover, what CIG are delivering is still a far cry from what was initially pitched, with everyone on the same server.

Say what you like about ED, but playing in Open, you can go to the same location as another player and see them, whereas with SC, you go to the same location as another player, but they might be on a different server, so you'll never see them.

Take Ark for example. I can be riding a dino, and someone can be working the forge in my base on the back of my dino, and someone on the far side of the island has no idea about my dino or what is happening on it (the game client doesn't know as well). But as i ride my dino towards that other player, stuff gets streamed in and out, and when close enough, the other player will be able to see me, my dino, and the guy working the forge on my mobile base. Its pretty similar.

I'm sure there are a lot of examples of games that do this sort of thing.

PS: Multicrew dinos FTW!

You can go to the same location in ED and still not see the player because of server, instance, whatever just as well. There is no total server that brings all players connected in ED, beyond the point the matchmakers spin up several instances. That's the point of instances. If one gets too full and overloaded there opens another one. Going back to "seeing all the players" is basically the fundamental opposite to how ED works.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Take this for example, all the way through it, from still being in QT, right down to landing on the surface, is one uninterrupted motion of moving through real 3D space.
On going from orbit to surface there is no fancy entrance sequence that is a loadscreen, its just free flying, i could stop the ship, or even not stop the ship, get out of the chair, open the door and skydive to my death, because there is no instance loading anywhere at any point.
With that a crew mate can be doing whatever he wants in the ship at any and all points, he can open the door, at any point and jump out, even during QT, i would have to stop and fly back to the location he jumped out to get him, its real distance and space.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkhoYqs9imw

Yes, that part is quite a nice feature.

I wonder if they will be able to maintain this with server meshing if/when it arrives, especially when it comes to jumping between systems. But there again, it can be done with a Mass Effect style elevator screen, just with more going on.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Per the original Star Citizen proposition.

Which was pitched as being the BDSSE.

I wonder how many more years it will be before CIG deliver something on a par with the original pitch?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Per the original Star Citizen proposition. That's not multiplayer and its certainly not an open world game. it is something that is simpler than Elite Dangerous Horizons, tho not the 2014 ED.

My point is simply that Star Citizen as it is today it needs to be a single instance game, no loadscreens.
It might be possible to do that when moving between systems, tho each player would have to be in a seat before going through the jumpgate.
they could make each seat and bed an instance log node and lock people in place going through the jumpgate, you wouldn't be able to have anyone out of a designated seat and no one would be able to get out of the seat while jumping.
And to me that's fine, i'm good with that.

Needs to be? Why? I get it with Foxhole: Every crater, shellhole, foxhole matters. Can't have different "maps" and states of it around when the win condition is capping the townhall. I guess it would be possible, if the maps were somewhat similar but one could go south - the other north, just depending into which the tank battallion of the day spawned.
In Foxhole persistentcy matters. Does it in SC?

 

[Viajero]

I'll explain it another way, you're in super cruse, you appear to be covering distance, planets and stars are moving past you, you can turn the ship and fly to where you want.
You are covering real distance, the stars and planets are real in the 3D sense, but they are in an instance that is separate to yours, you are in a super cruse instance.
You want to go to this space station over there.... its in a different instance, you approach it and watch your distance graph, you wait for it to enter the blue zone and you hold down J, there is a short delay and a fancy visual sequence, that is you loading from the super cruse instance to the space station instance, there is a noise and some theater and suddenly you pop in a set distance from the station, doesn't matter at what point you pressed J you always pop in to the same sort of place by the space station, because its taken you from one instance, and placed you in to another.

Jesus. I thought we were already past this. We have already posted in this same thread many Elite videos showing proof of seamless map transitions (I.e no change of instance) between planets or from planet to orbital stations etc all at normal speeds (taking for ages but gets the point proved). Stars and planets are not in a different instance to yours.

What you may be rather referring to, the super cruise or orbital cruise transition to normal speeds (or viceversa) micro pause that we often see, is a network related one (not a map loading one, maps in Elite are procedurally streamed) to despawn and spawn players and AI and as such supercruise and normal speed are indeed separate instances as ships in one would never be able to sensibly interact with ships in the other anyways.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Jesus. I thought we were already past this. We have already posted in this same thread many Elite videos showing proof of seamless map transitions (I.e no change of instance) between planets or from planet to orbital stations etc all at normal speeds (taking for ages but gets the point proved). Stars and planets are not in a different instance to yours.

What you may be rather referring to, the super cruise or orbital cruise transition to normal speeds (or viceversa) micro pause that we often see, is a network related one (not a map loading one, maps in Elite are procedurally streamed) to despawn and spawn players and AI and as such supercruise and normal speed are indeed separate instances as ships in one would never be able to sensibly interact with ships in the other anyways.

In a star system. In order to jump between systems you need to load the new instance.

 

[Viajero]

You can go to the same location in ED and still not see the player because of server, instance, whatever just as well. There is no total server that brings all players connected in ED, beyond the point the matchmakers spin up several instances. That's the point of instances. If one gets too full and overloaded there opens another one. Going back to "seeing all the players" is basically the fundamental opposite to how ED works.

It is exactly the same in SC though. Every server in SC is a separate instance of the same space.

 

[Viajero]

In a star system. In order to jump between systems you need to load the new instance.

Indeed, Separate star systems are completely different entities as the procedural seed is also completely different. I was referring to a given system.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It is exactly the same in SC though. Every server in SC is a separate instance of the same space.

How many do they have? Or did they try to set up a dynamic system like ED? I heard they use AWS.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

And there is the crux - there is many servers and thus many realities on these servers. You make them pershmistent and you get many conflicting realities.

 

[Viajero]

How many do they have?

 

[Ed02349]

Which was pitched as being the BDSSE.

I wonder how many more years it will be before CIG deliver something on a par with the original pitch?

If BDSSE is already 'best', does that mean the current SC plan is not the best?
Still people are having more fun in it than any other games out there.

Needs to be? Why? I get it with Foxhole: Every crater, shellhole, foxhole matters. Can't have different "maps" and states of it around when the win condition is capping the townhall. I guess it would be possible, if the maps were somewhat similar but one could go south - the other north, just depending into which the tank battallion of the day spawned.
In Foxhole persistentcy matters. Does it in SC?

I guess it would be nice if every ship every player owns in presented in the station's hangar, but then again, does it matter for SC?
If they implemented persistent ships everywhere, it might actually be counter productive because noone can guard all their ships at the same time. Someone might clip through the walls and destroy other people's ships that remain persistently destroyed. Eventually as CIG's philosophy, players will learn to avoid buying multiple ships, and it'll bite into their funding.

 

[Intrepid3D]

It is exactly the same in SC though. Every server in SC is a separate instance of the same space.

No, its not exactly the same, the Stanton System is a single instance, its one game map, one level. There is no instancing, at all...