No Single Player offline Mode then?

[Namix]

Exactly this, However if you upgraded to the beta and played it, all bets are off I would assume.

not sure what you mean by upgrading, if you mean you had pre ordered then decided you wanted into the beta and payed xx more to get into it your still covered, whilst the beta is subject to change etc its not a full game, and therefore does not count as delivery and means your still entitled to a refund. (this would be my interpretation, a beta is not delivery of the full product, therefore the pre order has not be delivered upon)

 

[Deyn]

Exactly this, However if you upgraded to the beta and played it, all bets are off I would assume.

Absolutely not... if you buy a car and take the first ride only to find out you can't shift gear into any gear beyond second, you won't have a chance of a refund, right?
Standard purchases of physical goods can be reverted up to 6 month after purchase if they are damaged or miss an advertised feature. Usually you get a repair, a new one or if not possible a refund.

Face it, if hundreds or thousands of pre-purchasers will apply for a refund, it may have a considerable financial impact. And just because you deny it won't help...

 

[xxThe_Dice_manxx]

Yes, I don't really mind what decision FD make on this at this stage, as long as they make a decision one way or another.

If their decision is to refuse the refund, I will just tke it to the next step with my local authorites. I just can't do that until I have lodged and received a response from FD .. a response I am still waiting for.

Once a reasonable period has lapsed without response from FD, I will be able to move onto the next phase.

Don't take my word for it, I'm just making assumptions, I can't see what your local authorities can do for you either, you bought a beta game and got what you paid for., but best of luck.

 

[Juniper]

Pretty sure what we've all bought/pledged/backed/pre-ordered is a game.

What we have had so far is a beta framework.
What we learned at the weekend we will get in December is a "platform".
So nobody has played a game yet, nor will they for a while.

Nor will we ever, now. We're getting a game client, which is usable only as long as Frontier keep the servers open.

The game lives with Frontier now. We're getting a rental instead.

 

[-o-]

Don't take my word for it, I'm just making assumptions, I can't see what your local authorities can do for you either, you bought a beta game and got what you paid for., but best of luck.

I appreciate your concerns and support.

 

[Namix]

Right, so you're saying that it's morally ok for Frontier to sanction refunds of people's £40 store purchase, but not if they've pledged thousands through Kickstarter... even if it's for the exact same reasons?

im not saying nor ever have, that people cant have refunds. Im saying that arguing over the cut of offline mode and shouting at FD for lieing, mis representation and law breaking A)gets us no where B)gives the community a bad atmosphere and C)has no grounds in reality.

If you purchased the game cos you hoped/thought it would have an offline mode then im sorry for you but it won't, go to the site and request a refund. If you feel you were entitled to an offline mode because of kickstarter/ama whatever, your incorrect but still feel free to go get a refund.

 

[xxThe_Dice_manxx]

not sure what you mean by upgrading, if you mean you had pre ordered then decided you wanted into the beta and payed xx more to get into it your still covered, whilst the beta is subject to change etc its not a full game, and therefore does not count as delivery and means your still entitled to a refund. (this would be my interpretation, a beta is not delivery of the full product)

But you got what you paid for when you upgraded to the beta package, the beta was delivered and played so they received A product as advertised.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Nor will we ever, now. We're getting a game client, which is usable only as long as Frontier keep the servers open.

The game lives with Frontier now. We're getting a rental instead.

The games lives as long as people want to play it, when/if FD ever scrap the game the online community will get it working again, this has happened with too many games to mention.

 

[light487]

Absolutely not... if you buy a car and take the first ride only to find out you can't shift gear into any gear beyond second, you won't have a chance of a refund, right?
Standard purchases of physical goods can be reverted up to 6 month after purchase if they are damaged or miss an advertised feature. Usually you get a repair, a new one or if not possible a refund.

Face it, if hundreds or thousands of pre-purchasers will apply for a refund, it may have a considerable financial impact. And just because you deny it won't help...

This is also provided people go to FD for those refunds. If people start contacting their banks and declaring fraud (even though it clearly isn't), then we'll have a mass chargeback situation occurring. If suddenly hundreds (or thousands) start to do chargebacks for fraud or for goods not as described, not only will EurocardVisa/Mastercard (EMV) side with the card holders, as per normal practice, but the merchant services bank for FD will start to ask questions. On top of the merchant reputation and there'll be charges applied for every chargeback refunded on top of the refunded amounts. In addition to chargeback charges, there are chargeback thresholds that get triggered when too many come through in a short space of time... and there are consequences for that as well. It is certainly in FD's best interests to refund anyone that asks, regardless of "right to a refund" in the normal sense of things. Generally speaking, there isn't much the merchant can do to prove it's not fraud or it's not goods as described etc.. it's just a fact of life of being a merchant.

 

[Dave Leestir]

Nor will we ever, now. We're getting a game client, which is usable only as long as Frontier keep the servers open.

The game lives with Frontier now. We're getting a rental instead.

I predict that one day we will be able to purchase game time to play Elite via Amazon Prime.

At least FD will surely still send me a physical (though useless) Premium Boxed Edition of Elite: Dangerous (not mentioning DRM-free at all any more).

 

[paralipsis]

The games lives as long as people want to play it, when/if FD ever scrap the game the online community will get it working again, this has happened with too many games to mention.

It's also failed to happen with too many games to mention too.

 

[Deyn]

But you got what you paid for when you upgraded to the beta package, the beta was delivered and played so they received A product as advertised.

Seems you have problems differetiating between "playing" a game and "beta testing" a game, also.

Normally, testers get paid to test stability, give feedback, provoke crashes, provide their different hardware setups for compatibility checks, etc.

Nobody actually got a finished product, yet. We all were testing E: D features in a specific beta sandbox. Nobody "played" the real game, yet.

 

[Namix]

But you got what you paid for when you upgraded to the beta package, the beta was delivered and played so they received A product as advertised.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



The games lives as long as people want to play it, when/if FD ever scrap the game the online community will get it working again, this has happened with too many games to mention.

Not atall, paying that extra £XX's gets you into the beta, it does not change your entitlement to the full game upon its release (its included in the deal if you look at the offer), so your still entitled to a refund, now if someone was being really really akward they could deny the upgrade price as they did "deliver" on that part of the package, however thats is unlikely.

 

[-o-]

Good to see we have moved house again and are back in "Elite: Dangerous General"

Good decision (I hope I'm allowed to say that).

 

[synchromesh]

Originally Posted by synchromesh View Post

And there Lays the problem.....They issued the statement of no offline mode BEFORE the Official release......Which means its still in Development ........ After the official release on December 16th ( Delivery ) you may have had a chance.
Until then its still in development ..... and they have the right to change anything from the kickstarter that is impractical without any real legal obligation except a refund policy.

I think this is why its all happened now. they had to let you know before the official release ......or telling you after delivery could have caused legal issues.

So as of right now.....Delivery will be as described and promised.....Without offline mode

The devs, when asked if there would EVER be an offline mode said "probably not"

This could also explain why there hasn't been much response from FD at the moment....They cant change their mind until after official delivery at this point because then they would be legally obliged to make offline mode....But after official release they could say we will try without any legal obligation.....So for now its best they say nothing.

 

[xxThe_Dice_manxx]

Absolutely not... if you buy a car and take the first ride only to find out you can't shift gear into any gear beyond second, you won't have a chance of a refund, right?
Standard purchases of physical goods can be reverted up to 6 month after purchase if they are damaged or miss an advertised feature. Usually you get a repair, a new one or if not possible a refund.

Face it, if hundreds or thousands of pre-purchasers will apply for a refund, it may have a considerable financial impact. And just because you deny it won't help...

If people have pre-purchased the game(not the beta) then by all means they can get their money back, no question, I don't dispute it.

And what you say is true , a lot of refunds will hurt the game.

But if they bought the beta and played it for weeks/months and FD will be able to check, then it is unlikely in my opinion that they will get a refund.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

This is also provided people go to FD for those refunds. If people start contacting their banks and declaring fraud (even though it clearly isn't), then we'll have a mass chargeback situation occurring. If suddenly hundreds (or thousands) start to do chargebacks for fraud or for goods not as described, not only will EurocardVisa/Mastercard (EMV) side with the card holders, as per normal practice, but the merchant services bank for FD will start to ask questions. On top of the merchant reputation and there'll be charges applied for every chargeback refunded on top of the refunded amounts. In addition to chargeback charges, there are chargeback thresholds that get triggered when too many come through in a short space of time... and there are consequences for that as well. It is certainly in FD's best interests to refund anyone that asks, regardless of "right to a refund" in the normal sense of things. Generally speaking, there isn't much the merchant can do to prove it's not fraud or it's not goods as described etc.. it's just a fact of life of being a merchant.

The threshold for EMV "Suspect merchant" classification these days is low, lower than a lot of people would expect. You only get those limits lifted when you're a -large- scale retailer like say Tesco or Walmart and therefore the limit is based on a percentile of your sales as opposed to a hard cap per year. Otherwise you're going to have a fixed sum per year, and it's generally in the thousands, or low tens of thousands, if you overshoot that, you get whacked onto a list which means that all of your incoming transactions are then subjected to additional fraud checks and often the card processors will refuse transactions to that merchant without additional steps. It's not a fun position to be in.

 

[mattensky]

im not saying nor ever have, that people cant have refunds. Im saying that arguing over the cut of offline mode and shouting at FD for lieing, mis representation and law breaking A)gets us no where B)gives the community a bad atmosphere and C)has no grounds in reality.

If you purchased the game cos you hoped/thought it would have an offline mode then im sorry for you but it won't, go to the site and request a refund. If you feel you were entitled to an offline mode because of kickstarter/ama whatever, your incorrect but still feel free to go get a refund.

Bad atmosphere? I think people are entitled to vent their anger . . . what's it to you? No one is forcing you to read this thread? If people stopped spouting nonsense in defence of FD this would probably die down.

I have requested a refund and am following the thread with interest while I wait to hear from Customer Support - probably because a small part of me still hopes that Michael will come on and say that offline is back on the table. In the meantime, people unaffected by the decision are attacking those who are and in doing so are just perpetuating this whole drama by upsetting people further.

The more nonsense I read in support of this decision, - and there are a number of people on here who seem to delight in being patronizing, arrogant and dismissive towards those of us with a legitimate grievance, the angrier I become at the thought of the money I have spent on this (CH HOTAS, TrackIR, new GPU etc.) - and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

[xxThe_Dice_manxx]

Not atall, paying that extra £XX's gets you into the beta, it does not change your entitlement to the full game upon its release (its included in the deal if you look at the offer), so your still entitled to a refund, now if someone was being really really akward they could deny the upgrade price as they did "deliver" on that part of the package, however thats is unlikely.

I see your point, I am interested now to find out if betas can get their money back in full.

 

[-o-]

If people have pre-purchased the game(not the beta) they are by all means they can get their money back, no question, I don't dispute it.

And what you say is true , a lot of refunds will hurt the game.

But if they bought the beta and played it for weeks/months and FD will be able to check, then it is unlikely in my opinion that they will get a refund.

Can you actually buy the Alpha or Beta without buying the game?

There is no way to do this is there?

You use the term 'But if they bought the beta' ... but as far as I know, you cant actually exclusively buy the Beta.

 

[el_tel]

I haven't posted in this thread as yet (at least I don't think I have, and I'm not trawling through over 6800 posts to find out), but here's my take on the situation on people who pre-ordered Beta through the store (note - I have no legal knowledge whatsoever).

£35 to pre-order the game
£15 to upgrade to the Beta

As the game isn't what you were waiting for (offline) but have taken part in the Beta testing, I think it's fair that your refund should be for the £35 pre-order of the 'final' game, which isn't what you thought you were pre-ordering.

A similar situation for Premium Beta and Alpha testers would bough via the store (£35 to be refunded for the final game).

I don't have any idea what the situation is for those that pledged via the KS and the Backers' App, because that wasn't technically a purchase, but a donation (sorry Juniper).

FWIW - IMO The announcement was done in the worst possible way.