Seems Elite Dangerous will be continued!

[Factabulous]

Players will complain things are too hard, or too easy - there is no middle ground to be found, apparently...

Simplest action would be to remove all traces of the toothless "war" and let players complain about other player's actions, as normal.

Different people will have different reactions, which is just people

fdev decided this year to bring war to the bubble, but they kinda wussed out and made it optional - I think they should have had the courage of their conviction and followed through - whatever they do (or don't do) they will get some grief. It's their game, despite around here thinking they are in charge.

If they had burnt the bubble at least they wouldn't have OA saying 'ED is one of the best space games, but nothing happened this year'

 

[Agony_Aunt]

It's the usual "size of bubble" problem.

The effective "frontline" of the war is somewhere between 50 and 75 systems. Much bigger than that, and it becomes incomprehensible - sure, you can still shoot Thargoids for fun, but getting any sort of overview of why you're doing it becomes really difficult. It's rare for a BGS squadron to get that large because keeping track of that space becomes very tricky; most Powerplay groups are a similar size in terms of control spheres; etc.

Make the front line bigger to the point where the Thargoids are a reasonable medium-term threat but keep the overall difficulty the same, and the per-system difficulty has to drop so much that a single commander can save it in an hour or so.

With a bubble of ~1000 systems, the Thargoids at their furthest reach would have taken over almost a fifth of it, including threatening several critical systems (though unlikely to have actually captured any because they'd be the priority for defence, of course). They'd have been able to capture the entire thing given a year or two undisturbed.

The size of the bubble is pretty much what it has to be if your constraints are:
- realistic galaxy map using real-world observational data and distances
- Empire and Alliance capitals in the same systems they were in for FFE
and of course no-one had any idea in 2013 (or 1995!) that those decisions would be making it so difficult now.


One of the big things I liked about the 2020-2021 stories (NMLA and Azimuth being the biggest two), or the 2019 Interstellar Initiatives, is that because they were almost entirely using existing features and capabilities in creative ways, it did feel a lot more as if the pacing was being set by the writers instead of by the game, and they still had some genuinely new things showing up.

Of course now they have all these extra Thargoid-related capabilities, hopefully the next Thargoid-related story will go rather more smoothly in that respect.

The size issue could be overcome. Each power grouping in the game has a capital or core systems. Taking those down would destroy humanity's cohesion.

Of course, we don't know if the Thargoids could understand that or know it, but hey, FD control the lore, so they could have the Thargoids do that.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

fdev decided this year to bring war to the bubble, but they kinda wussed out and made it optional - I think they should have had the courage of their conviction and followed through - whatever they do (or don't do) they will get some grief. It's their game, despite around here thinking they are in charge.

That is a big part of what brought them to where they are now in the first place. They've sometimes absurdly caved to loud minorities in select cases (shield booster nerf beta anyone), while at the same time largely ignoring more levelheaded and broad criticism/suggestions.

Ultimately it's the players who pay the bills. You might easily make the perfect game as you see and envision it, but if no one wants to play this perfection, then you go out of business, easy enough.

One developer who has a pretty fine instinct in that regard are Pearl Abyss with Black Desert Online. They are clever enough to ignore the loud minorities and humble enough to roll back or change features that really don't sit well with the larger playerbase. Comes with being Asian I guess. Arrogance seems to be an exclusive trait of western developers. Currently Bethesda are showing a lot of arrogance in their review comments on Steam, and FDEV have been very arrogant time and time again.

 

[Fnord Velkor]

Me too.
Actually things are so bad at Frontier, even IGN posted a shocking news article about it:

Warhammer Age of Sigmar: Realms of Ruin Flops, Frontier Shares Tank Nearly 20%

Chaos.

nordic.ign.com

I highlight few things that shocked me:

Then, in June, Frontier announced the closure of its Frontier Foundry subsidiary and a plan to concentrate on its own universe of curated games, admitting to "disappointing" financial performance across its third-party portfolio ...

...a 20% operating cost reduction from layoffs...

And finally, Chairman David Wilton is out,... Frontier boss David Braben admitted it had been a “turbulent and difficult year” for Frontier...

Realms of Ruin’s poor performance, saying its ... it expects to bring in £80-95 million .... What? How?

As mentioned already, that £80-95M figure was for overall company revenue.

What has passed under the radar a bit is perhaps the fallout from almost exactly a year ago:

Acquisition of Complex Games Inc

Lots of money splurges in recent years coming back to bite perhaps?

Investment chat still not fooled by the Chair change, one example of an analyst's musings: "we see the company's value now supported more by the potential value of it assets than its medium-term outlook". That must be galling to the boardroom as must the cut in Barenberg's target price for FDEV:

Berenberg cuts target price on Frontier Developments

Analysts at Berenberg lowered their target price on video games developer Frontier Developments from 210.0p to 170.0p on Tuesday on the back of news that sales of its Realms of Ruin title had been "underwhelming and materially lower" than many of its other franchises.

www.sharecast.com

So, in advance of more "what a dork, talking about shares on a game forum" remarks - just pointing out that the general consensus from the "money men" is that the next FYs are going to be harsh for FDEV so taking three words in a business update as being good news for Elite dangerous is very much wishful thinking.

 

[Rainbro]

It feels weird that there's this much discussion over a single line saying "yes, we are going to keep supporting the game". It's objectively good news, but in what world were Frontier going to do anything that couldn't be written that way?

I dunno. I just feel like this really shouldn't be news. Are we due another commitment from Frontier to better focus on communication, if people are so unsure of their long-term plans that "we're still going to keep selling the game, duh" is noteworthy? We're closing on a major update...probably? We don't know. Is it even the update or the announcement of the outcome of the investigation into the decision of what to update?

On the other hand, maybe discourse on this topic is just irreparably screwed by the idea that all negative feedback is ultimately predicting that Frontier are going to switch off the servers - because they don't like money, I guess. If so, yeah, congratulations. This says they aren't going to do that. Maybe there could be a bit more nuance on what they are going to do, though?

 

[Jokerman]

The press release is forward looking ,,, existing games will continue to be develop ought be read with a drop of care not to get overly excited.
Yes, the OP header holds true, ED is continuing and at the very least, that means the servers will stay up and the current plans (whatever the are) remain on the action plan. Beyond that, it is with hope that we'll see F.Dev decide to double down on ED because this title has potential to run the race on a par with it's current competition (actual and perceived) for years to come but that reality will not get born without a decided effort on behalf of F.Dev management to invest and not be distracted by shiny ideas from a power point! Ever hopeful and ever skeptical .... I remain ....S!

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

The press release is forward looking ,,, existing games will continue to be develop ought be read with a drop of care not to get overly excited.
Yes, the OP header hold, ED is continuing and at the very least, that means the servers will stay up and the current plans (whatever the are) remain on the action plan. Beyond that, it is will hope that we'll head F.Dev decide to double down on ED because this title has potential to run the race on a par with it's current competition (actual and perceived) for years to come but that reality will not get borne without a decided effort on behalf of F.Dev management to invest and not be distracted by shiny ideas from a power point! Ever hopeful and ever skeptical .... I remain ....S!

They would have to double down real hard, and it'll be more difficult year by year to make people come back/new people to sign on. Odyssey release was premature, and while most of it's problems have been fixed over the following year, there have been almost no feature updates for it except a few more mission types. And all other new content except the Thargoid war already stopped 2018 with the release of the Mamba. We are now at the end of 2023 and almost in 2024.

 

[Fizzatron]

For me, its the pacing. Many years ago i said FD either needed to pee or get off the pot when it came to the story. Even long before the Thargoid stuff, storyline stuff progressed at an abysmal rate, with months or years between story elements. Basically FD either needed to forget about story and focus on features that add more to the game, but no story behind it or go all in and keep it progressing and engaging, so each element doesn't take months or years (taken to extreme, the hypothetical "what if players did nothing to stop the thargoids" potentially taking 80 years) to resolve.

To give an example, let's take Thargoids.

Without story, they are just another activity, like in the original Elite. A place or places where you can go to kill Thargoids or places to avoid.

With story, then FD need to be on the ball, every month, moving things along, developing the story, bringing in new things, etc.

The latter requires a lot more commitment and engagement from the devs, and therefore more expensive, but it can also be a lot more fun and engaging for players.

What FD opted for was something that was story based, but with a pacing that is so slow it might as well be static, without story.

You could have someone who played ED 2 years ago and seeing the thargoids are invading the bubble. 2 years later, the story hasn't really changed. The thargoids are still invading the bubble.

Ok, that's fair enough, so where should the Thargoid war be at this point in your opinion?

 

[Fizzatron]

With better BSG and war mechanics, the story would mostly write itself. They'd just need to put their hand on the tiller every once in a while. They wouldn't need to devote whole updates to making each chapter. It's funny, DB once said Winter is Coming. At this rate, GRR Martin might finish Fire and Ice before the Thargoids figure out what they're doing here.

Also funny, system wars finish in 4 days. 4 days! Not a fan of that bull dung; wars are serious business that have lasting consequences (just read the news sometime) but hey, at least some PMF is playing Risk right? One extreme to the other.

I think those are good points. It's difficult to estimate how the process works behind the scenes, to know how things could be accelerated or tweaked when considering the scale Frontier are dealing with. Complexity can increase exponentially in relation to server load when balancing against everything else. I think it would be good, if the feature overhaul was the BGS, to see system wars be a see-saw that could in theory become perpetual, or reach a state of truce/armistice given a certain amount of time. Frontier's statement in regards to giving people a greater role in the shaping of the bubble/galaxy might hint towards that? I wonder if the tech employed to create/run the Thargoid War isn't like a BGS V2.0 and Frontier are thinking to apply the same aspects to the greater BGS...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Ok, that's fair enough, so where should the Thargoid war be at this point in your opinion?

The invasion itself should already have been fended off (assuming players put the effort in, which they most certainly did by now) and now players should be invading Thargoid territory to end the Thargoid menace for once and for all, although i could see a case for saying that phase should already be done with by now as well. It has been years already. But that would require FD to actually make Thargoid homeworlds...

 

[Fizzatron]

The invasion itself should already have been fended off (assuming players put the effort in, which they most certainly did by now) and now players should be invading Thargoid territory to end the Thargoid menace for once and for all, although i could see a case for saying that phase should already be done with by now as well. It has been years already. But that would require FD to actually make Thargoid homeworlds...

I can see that working if Frontier were making Fortnite amounts of money from the game. That being said, I like what you're suggesting, though I'd also suggest that Thargoid home worlds would be best represented by full atmospheric ammonia worlds, which we don't have in the game at this point. Putting that aside though, the Titans and the Spire sites suffice at this point in representing a Thargoid presence in the current iteration of the game, the pacing is subjective but I think it's fair to say it's correlated to development resources. Which leads to what I perceive about the discussion about this and other aspects of the game that makes a lot of this moot. It's that it is based on this alternate time-line where Frontier didn't decide to bolster their company position by releasing other games, which is up in the air at the moment due to the latest batch of games not performing as they should, but historically has been a good thing when thinking about Planet Coast, Planet Zoo & JWE. When 'if only Frontier did this or that' is the foundation for the discussion moving forward it isn't based in the current reality, which, generally speaking, serves little constructive purpose if we're talking about where the game needs to move forward. Any discussion has to start from where we are at presently. Based on that criteria, what do you think Frontier could do to improve the Thargoid War in your mind, or do you feel that it's a wash at this point?

 

[Fizzatron]

So, in advance of more "what a dork, talking about shares on a game forum" remarks - just pointing out that the general consensus from the "money men" is that the next FYs are going to be harsh for FDEV so taking three words in a business update as being good news for Elite dangerous is very much wishful thinking.

In the context of seeing Frontier in cutting costs mode, the fact they mention that support for Elite is continuing is factually not bad news. To think that the only good news would be something like "Frontier commits $50m to two new major expansions for Elite Dangerous" is a bit disingenuous IMHO. I think most are seeing it for what it is; it's not great news like the aforementioned statement would be but Frontier are still committed to Elite Dangerous. Which, despite the repetitive mantra of those who are only down about the game keep saying to the contrary, is also in fact no change from every other instance of Frontier's previously stated position about Elite Dangerous, when it is brought up.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I can see that working if Frontier were making Fortnite amounts of money from the game. That being said, I like what you're suggesting, though I'd also suggest that Thargoid home worlds would be best represented by full atmospheric ammonia worlds, which we don't have in the game at this point. Putting that aside though, the Titans and the Spire sites suffice at this point in representing a Thargoid presence in the current iteration of the game, the pacing is subjective but I think it's fair to say it's correlated to development resources. Which leads to what I perceive about the discussion about this and other aspects of the game that makes a lot of this moot. It's that it is based on this alternate time-line where Frontier didn't decide to bolster their company position by releasing other games, which is up in the air at the moment due to the latest batch of games not performing as they should, but historically has been a good thing when thinking about Planet Coast, Planet Zoo & JWE. When 'if only Frontier did this or that' is the foundation for the discussion moving forward it isn't based in the current reality, which, generally speaking, serves little constructive purpose if we're talking about where the game needs to move forward. Any discussion has to start from where we are at presently. Based on that criteria, what do you think Frontier could do to improve the Thargoid War in your mind, or do you feel that it's a wash at this point?

Well, there is a reason i wished FD would put their attention on making all worlds landable (and gas giants enterable) to actually finish off the bazillion worlds we have.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

With a bubble of ~1000 systems, the Thargoids at their furthest reach would have taken over almost a fifth of it, including threatening several critical systems (though unlikely to have actually captured any because they'd be the priority for defence, of course). They'd have been able to capture the entire thing given a year or two undisturbed.

The war needed attacks on critical systems to build a better story - even if those systems were critical for entirely new and purely story reasons.

Ok, that's fair enough, so where should the Thargoid war be at this point in your opinion?

It could be in the exact same place it is now or even further from a conclusion as long as there's an engaging back and forth happening with interesting plans and actions from both sides where the balance of the war shifts temporarily because of the narrative. Stuff like Aegis gathering reserves for a concentrated attack on a single maelstrom or having to withdraw counter-attacks from somewhere temporarily etc.

Pacing isn't just about how fast you get to the end, but how you fill that time it takes you to get there by building and releasing tension - the longer a story goes the harder it is to keep that going which is what often leads to bad slow pacing. Elite certainly has slow pacing but also failed to fill in the gaps really with decent enough narrative stakes for the war, but was able to coast on there being new good gameplay to go along with it.

 

[Fizzatron]

The war needed attacks on critical systems to build a better story - even if those systems were critical for entirely new and purely story reasons.


It could be in the exact same place it is now or even further from a conclusion as long as there's an engaging back and forth happening with interesting plans and actions from both sides where the balance of the war shifts temporarily because of the narrative. Stuff like Aegis gathering reserves for a concentrated attack on a single maelstrom or having to withdraw counter-attacks from somewhere temporarily etc.

Pacing isn't just about how fast you get to the end, but how you fill that time it takes you to get there by building and releasing tension - the longer a story goes the harder it is to keep that going which is what often leads to bad slow pacing.

Again, I'm not saying that the pacing isn't open to different opinions but the narrative does seem to be shifting towards onfoot engagement, whether it be actual Thargoids as an already existing species or, what looks more likely to be, Thargoid/Humanoid metastasized hybrids. Then I could well see what you are referring to in relation to frontal attack planned on a Titan by someone like Aegis. Though I would expect that the onfoot phase when it arrives will not be a small chapter.

Elite certainly has slow pacing but also failed to fill in the gaps really with decent enough narrative stakes for the war, but was able to coast on there being new good gameplay to go along with it.

Or put another way the new gameplay dictated the pace of the story. The real time nature of the game can play a part in this too, I think the narrative of the war is intended to be epic on scale - and it objectively is given the scale of what Frontier are doing with it. I'm not saying that everything has been perfect but maybe that's a conscious decision to let phases of the war play out as people wish to play them? The other point is missing out on phases, which I'm sure a few did when it came to the precursors to the Spire sites.

Is the narrative meant to be viewed as a short term comic book plot or something more like Lord of the Rings? There's a lot in between them and both ends of that spectrum will find fans and detractors alike. Frontier can't be all things to all people, though it may be suggested that station defence battles can be looked at specifically like bite-size episodes whereas the overarching war narrative may suit those who are more looking for the two chapters of wandering through the vales that just set the scene. Either way, there's a lot of room for criticism if someone is looking for that.

 

[Stoo]

I expect it means the servers will be kept up more than new and awesome features.

Call me jaded.

 

[Schattenmacher]

FDev could just let the Thargoids win.
Then the story is over and the server costs could be saved.
But there seem to be good reasons not to do this

 

[Stoo]

FDev could just let the Thargoids win.
Then the story is over and the server costs could be saved.
But there seem to be good reasons not to do this

Not sure there will be an "end to the story", more likely a "oh I can't login" situation

 

[MUTILADOR]

It's so very very good and close to absolute greatness.. it just seems they are determined to hamstring it either through lack of attention or lack of development. If only they knew that a better game makes happier and more numerous players which in turn makes more arx sales. i wish there was some way for them to understand this. Surely... surely they must see now that making a game that is rubbish is not a good return on investment so concentrate on the one that is 95% epic and sooooo close to a never ending cash cow. Puhleeeese frontier!

I completely agree, I came to the world of Elite because at that time it had very good references more than anything because of the great potential it showed for the future, I gave it a chance and fell in love with this type of games. Great news that they continue to strengthen it, I hope they realize once and for all that taking risks in other types of games that do not generate any impact as Elite did at the time, is reason enough to continue developing it. Elite has years of advantage over other space life simulation games, and the arrival of these other space games shows that it is an excellent niche to exploit right now.

 

[OutofSpace]

I am very happy to read they will continue to support Elite (the GOAT, imo) I think the recent success of Starfield (I don't own the game) has shown that the market for an open space game is still strong and as such, I believe it would be a mistake to discontinue development of Elite, imo.
As an Elite customer, Frontier has me hook, line and sinker. How they draw in the masses for this game, I don't know. Maybe if they made Elite appealing to the masses it would render the game unappealing for me. E.g. Arcade and cartoony.
Throughout my life, I have found anything that appeals to the masses doesn't appeal to me, whether that be film, books, music or indeed games, etc.

This is my opinion only and of course could be completely wrong.