Elite Dangerous plans for 2024

[Northpin]

SRVs in theory imply a minimum size for the class 2 internal which is a lot larger than the cargo can possibly need (and also minimum dimensions on each axis) ... so why are the cargo capacities so small?

# 1 vehicle Srv hangar / Cargo Rack
2E Cargo Rack - 4t
2G Srv Hangar - 6t
2H Srv Hangar - 12t

# 2 vehicle Srv hangar / Cargo Rack
4E Cargo rack - 16t
4G Srv Hangar - 10t
4H Srv Hangar - 20t

# 4 vehicle Srv hangar / Cargo Rack
6E Cargo rack - 64t
6G Srv Hangar - 17t
6H Srv Hangar - 34t

Wait! What?

 

[Fizzatron]

It's basically this. In essence I'm saying you dont turn a space arcade sim into a 1st person shooter.

But Frontier didn't turn Elite into an FPS. In Fallout 4 you walk around in first person perspective and you can shoot stuff, is that an FPS? At what point is there a realization that the 'hur dur Frontier turned Elite into an FPS' premise a strawman? And if Frontier did indeed take Elite and "turn it into an FPS", then surely it would also require Frontier to have removed the parts that don't feature in FPS games from Elite as well? Don't recall getting into a ship an flying to a new planet in Team Fortress 2, etc..

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

But Frontier didn't turn Elite into an FPS. In Fallout 4 you walk around in first person perspective and you can shoot stuff, is that an FPS? At what point is there a realization that the 'hur dur Frontier turned Elite into an FPS' premise a strawman? And if Frontier did indeed take Elite and "turn it into an FPS", then surely it would also require Frontier to have removed the parts that don't feature in FPS games from Elite as well? Don't recall getting into a ship an flying to a new planet in Team Fortress 2, etc..

No, but read the suggestion posts and people believe the game could be anything. That's the problem. That's why we get Star Citisn't and the like.

 

[Morbad]

In Fallout 4 you walk around in first person perspective and you can shoot stuff, is that an FPS?

Yes, but it's other things too.

No, but read the suggestion posts and people believe the game could be anything. That's the problem. That's why we get Star Citisn't and the like.

The ultimate ideal of the game was always a CMDR simulator. The game may have focused exclusively on the spacecraft perspective initially, but as far back as the kickstarter they were planning on more. I didn't consider this a problem, until it became apparent that they were pushing through half- expanded content while allowing old issues to snowball.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Yes, but it's other things too.



The ultimate ideal of the game was always a CMDR simulator. The game may have focused exclusively on the spacecraft perspective initially, but as far back as the kickstarter they were planning on more. I didn't consider this a problem, until it became apparent that they were pushing through half- expanded content while allowing old issues to snowball.

And with that what you've seen and witnessed - how likely would you rate such initially concepted additions. The CMDR simulator should have been there as the core. it's easier to insert the CMDR into different modules. Easier to have a unified interface where you have CMDR actions interact with different modules. Easier to create unified UI experience.
Would it be impossible? No, but it's a bit like reinventing the wheel and trying to make it work. It's stitching up Frankenstein's monster instead of having a baby.

 

[Morbad]

And with that what you've seen and witnessed - how likely would you rate such initially concepted additions. The CMDR simulator should have been there as the core. it's easier to insert the CMDR into different modules. Easier to have a unified interface where you have CMDR actions interact with different modules. Easier to create unified UI experience.
Would it be impossible? No, but it's a bit like reinventing the wheel and trying to make it work. It's stitching up Frankenstein's monster instead of having a baby.

I completely agree and I think they probably should have abandoned the roadmap when it became clear that the overarching vision was not going to happen in a way that could do it justice. I'd much rather have a fantasy spaceship simulator that works than fantasy spaceships simulator with bolt-on first person combat teats that doesn't.

But they evidently insisted on keeping up a list of new content. The game is like a television series that should have cleanly wrapped up in season four, but the ad revenue was good enough that they ordered seven more seasons and cut production values. It's not like there is anything else in the time slot.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

[SRV hangar specs]

Wait! What?

The hangar masses at least made some sense when the Scarab (4t) was the only option - the mass of the vehicles plus a bit of padding, and you can write off them not getting lighter when empty as a bug. The mass-performance curve is even reasonably sensible (though the volume-performance curve is as bad as most other internals still; maybe the size 6 hangar includes a carwash).

The Scorpion allegedly has a mass of 30t.

So a Sidewinder with two hangars aboard and D-rated internals has a mass of 44t plus 60t of Scorpions in hyperspatial storage. (Stick a 1A refinery on for another 4t, why not)

 

[Fizzatron]

Yes, but it's other things too.

I accept and agree with that expanded but nuanced definition. However, the point remains that that's not what people immediately think of when hearing the term 'FPS', and I highly doubt that Fallout 4 would be described as an FPS by itself first and foremost, validated by the tags for its store page:

To follow on.. if someone were to describe Fallout 4 as an FPS, I think it's fair to say it would be considered misleading. Yet apparantly Odyssey is an FPS expansion, end of story. How is that not misleading also? And to hold up Odyssey (or Elite in its current form) as an FPS would qualify as a strawman premise, would you not agree?

The ultimate ideal of the game was always a CMDR simulator. The game may have focused exclusively on the spacecraft perspective initially, but as far back as the kickstarter they were planning on more. I didn't consider this a problem, until it became apparent that they were pushing through half- expanded content while allowing old issues to snowball.

And this takes me back to my initial assertion that just because Frontier didn't get it perfect first time around it doesn't preclude it from being improved upon as time goes by, or justify calling it a failure that needs to be reverted.

 

[sidereal6]

It has no sense because of sizes. Where should I walk into "Imperial Courier" ?

Your rebuttal to my suggestion is, “because the Courier is small, that means we shouldn’t be able to walk on the bridge of the Cutter”

Sorry, but that’s nonsensical

I want to see them exact.

And here you’re saying, “I don’t want any ship interiors for anyone unless I get exactly what I want”

 

[Fizzatron]

And with that what you've seen and witnessed - how likely would you rate such initially concepted additions. The CMDR simulator should have been there as the core. it's easier to insert the CMDR into different modules. Easier to have a unified interface where you have CMDR actions interact with different modules. Easier to create unified UI experience.
Would it be impossible? No, but it's a bit like reinventing the wheel and trying to make it work. It's stitching up Frankenstein's monster instead of having a baby.

Aaand we're back to second guessing how it all should have been done. It's almost as if there's another product that took that suggested approach that we could compare Elite's progress to.. Speaking of:

I completely agree and I think they probably should have abandoned the roadmap when it became clear that the overarching vision was not going to happen in a way that could do it justice.

Or they could have fallen back on selling jpgs for ludicrous amounts instead after backing themselves into a corner with their paint the Mona Lisa in intricate detail starting at the bottom left corner of the canvas approach that has evidently served them so well thus far towards the goal of actually releasing what could be considered by any measure a complete game.

I'd much rather have a fantasy spaceship simulator that works than fantasy spaceships simulator with bolt-on first person combat teats that doesn't.

You have literally described Elite up till Odyssey, and I refer back to my last response to as how I see dealing with the aspects of Odyssey that aren't perfect.

But they evidently insisted on keeping up a list of new content. The game is like a television series that should have cleanly wrapped up in season four, but the ad revenue was good enough that they ordered seven more seasons and cut production values. It's not like there is anything else in the time slot.

Who are we talking about here? Frontier or CIG?? From a technical standpoint, Odyssey works 90+% seamlessly with the rest of the game. There are some gameplay mechanics that could be improved upon, of course, when aren't there? I question the underlying motive for anyone who suggests that Odyssey should be reverted or discarded, especially when they (not you) hilariously in the next sentence recommend playing Star Citizen because it seems to, at this point, follow a predictable pattern whether it is outwardly stated or not..

Speaking of which, to get back on topic; Morbad, what are your thoughts on Elite's development for 2024?

 

[Northpin]

The hangar masses at least made some sense when the Scarab (4t) was the only option - the mass of the vehicles plus a bit of padding, and you can write off them not getting lighter when empty as a bug. The mass-performance curve is even reasonably sensible (though the volume-performance curve is as bad as most other internals still; maybe the size 6 hangar includes a carwash).

The Scorpion allegedly has a mass of 30t.

So a Sidewinder with two hangars aboard and D-rated internals has a mass of 44t plus 60t of Scorpions in hyperspatial storage. (Stick a 1A refinery on for another 4t, why not)

Yea, i didnt even considered that, but a fully functional Sidewinder is under 50t and can theoretically (mass wise) fit in a size 6 optional internal that can accommodate a srv hangar holding 4 scarabs/scorpions or 64 tons of cargo (and the contraptions needed to manipulate and make accessible any individual 1t container at any given time)

Dimension wise, probably it would need a size 7 optional internal tho (reminiscent of the fact an Anaconda was supposed to be able to carry a Sidewinder)

 

[alexzk]

Your rebuttal to my suggestion is, “because the Courier is small, that means we shouldn’t be able to walk on the bridge of the Cutter”

Sorry, but that’s nonsensical


And here you’re saying, “I don’t want any ship interiors for anyone unless I get exactly what I want”

Well, even with accurate simulation it would be a waste of programmer's time. Without it - it is double waste.
For those who likes to decorate, they could add decorating on the carrier's bridge / personal cabin.

 

[Darkfyre99]

The problem I think is that the three reference points we have don't match up at all

Cargo is 2m^3 per tonne, 2^n progression by module size, plus however much padding you want to include. On that scale even a size 8 internal could probably be wedged inside a Sidewinder somewhere.

SRVs in theory imply a minimum size for the class 2 internal which is a lot larger than the cargo can possibly need (and also minimum dimensions on each axis) ... so why are the cargo capacities so small?

I did go into to that. There’s nearly eight times more volume than is strictly necessary if you can fit a folded SRV into a size two slot, and about 25 times more volume at size five and above, if a ship launched fighter can fit in a size five slot.

I’m fine with three explanations:

• Cargo, and cargo canisters, represent abstract in-game concepts, and isn’t reflective of the “reality” of the Elite universe.
• The ”wasted” space includes accessible spaces that allow the cargo manager to properly keep the center-of mass of the ship constant.
• The Mystery Science Theater 3000 mantra.

Personally, I’m inclined to go with a little from column B, and a lot from column A.

 

[Sysmon]

Don't recall getting into a ship an flying to a new planet in Team Fortress 2, etc..

Or even in Starfield!

S

 

[Morbad]

so why are the cargo capacities so small?

Probably because the developers either forgot the cube-square law, or willfully decided to ignore it so ships scaled in a more visually impressive manner without radically inflating their masses and cargo capacities (then having to balance thrusters and FSDs around 100kt ships). This is also probably why the smaller ships have reasonable densities on par with aircraft while the large ships resemble dirigibles, bounce castles, or aerogels.

A lot of people have big problems with the idea that something that's twice as long, but with the same proportions, is eight times the size. That third dimension breaks people's minds!

You have literally described Elite up till Odyssey, and I refer back to my last response to as how I see dealing with the aspects of Odyssey that aren't perfect.

By and large, I've felt that the decline of Elite started long before Odyssey, before release even. There have certainly been some improvements that I've enjoyed, but depreciation and bad kludges have always occurred and seem to come at an increasingly more rapid pace. Even if I limit myself to criticizing what was clearly unintentional, the state of the game immediately prior to Odyssey's release was not great and there was a lot I though should have been fixed before trying to integrate a major expansion.

Improvements aren't impossible, but they haven't been very forthcoming either. Odyssey is afflicted with a similar pattern to the base game, though less pronounced, because development has been slower. Again, there are definitely areas where it's improved, but there have been significant depreciation as well and the surface game still doesn't mesh well with the rest.

Speaking of which, to get back on topic; Morbad, what are your thoughts on Elite's development for 2024?

Beyond a trickle of basic maintenance, the only thing I expect to see is further development of the Thargoid war and galactic politics that I've either never been invested in or have been thoroughly turned off too. I'll be content to keep enjoying what I can where I can, if the game doesn't get much worse, but I don't expect it to get any better.

There is a ton of stuff that I'd like to see, some of which is even plausibly within FDev capabilities, but my expectation is stagnation.

 

[Red Anders]

The ultimate ideal of the game was always a CMDR simulator. The game may have focused exclusively on the spacecraft perspective initially, but as far back as the kickstarter they were planning on more. I didn't consider this a problem, until it became apparent that they were pushing through half- expanded content while allowing old issues to snowball.

This is the crux of it - I think they repeatedly either underestimated the amount of work required to deliver on their ideas, or overestimated the speed at which they could deliver it. So many things were left on the back burner half completed, or denied a successful troubleshooting pass, that today the back burner looks like this:

and now with the bursting of the covid bubble in gaming and the resulting dropoff in revenues industry-wide, it's going to stay like that. I made my peace with it a while ago - it is what it is and nothing is going to change the reality of the situation.

 

[Schmack]

This is the crux if it - I think they repeatedly either underestimated the amount of work required to deliver on their ideas, or overestimated the speed at which they could deliver it. So many things were left on the back burner half completed, or denied a successful troubleshooting pass, that today the back burner looks like this:

View attachment 380815

and now with the bursting of the covid bubble in gaming and the resulting dropoff in revenues industry-wide, it's going to stay like that. I made my peace with it a while ago - it is what it is and nothing is going to change the reality of the situation.

Some see a mess. I see a nice set of ovens and cooktop, maybe Viking or Wolf, and a nice set of cabinets and countertops, with a really high end ventilation system. The mess can be cleaned up. That's how ED is though, lots of really cool stuff but needs to be cleaned up. Heck, even all the pots have what appears to be still edible food. As a former chef I approve! Fire the DMO though.

 

[Planewalker]

The hangar masses at least made some sense when the Scarab (4t) was the only option - the mass of the vehicles plus a bit of padding, and you can write off them not getting lighter when empty as a bug. The mass-performance curve is even reasonably sensible (though the volume-performance curve is as bad as most other internals still; maybe the size 6 hangar includes a carwash).

The Scorpion allegedly has a mass of 30t.

So a Sidewinder with two hangars aboard and D-rated internals has a mass of 44t plus 60t of Scorpions in hyperspatial storage. (Stick a 1A refinery on for another 4t, why not)

While i do not know, i've always seen the SRV hangars as assemblies, like with the fighters. Just not capable of producing more.

 

[Darkfyre99]

The hangar masses at least made some sense when the Scarab (4t) was the only option - the mass of the vehicles plus a bit of padding, and you can write off them not getting lighter when empty as a bug. The mass-performance curve is even reasonably sensible (though the volume-performance curve is as bad as most other internals still; maybe the size 6 hangar includes a carwash).

The Scorpion allegedly has a mass of 30t.

So a Sidewinder with two hangars aboard and D-rated internals has a mass of 44t plus 60t of Scorpions in hyperspatial storage. (Stick a 1A refinery on for another 4t, why not)

One of my biggest regrets about this game is that I started playing it during Alpha 3, so I got to see how brilliant this game would've been if Frontier developments hadn't completely kicked verisimilitude out the building. Sadly, certain members of the dev team started trying to shove it towards the exit before the game even made it out of beta, but there was nearly two years where these kinds of inconsitencies could be easily missed, because they were minor and infrequent.

These days, I keep running into "You could by your own ship for that!" level of rewards every single time I visit the mission board, and I realize that the good old days are long gone.

 

[metatheurgist]

Hmm I dunno, I think the Ody stuff is waaay more entertaining than much of the stuff that came before it. So I don't see how they did it "wrong". Could it be better? Sure, but you can say that about all of the game. It's like it's all opinions.