No Single Player offline Mode then?

[fatal]

There was AMA interview with David Braben on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/15od2s/i_am_david_braben_cocreator_of_elite_creator_of/

Here are some quotes from there:

Q: After numerous mishaps and false starts, I have grown extremely averse to multiplayer as a whole, outside of a private LAN. In my current situation, such LAN parties are out of the question, unless it's Starcraft... which I detest. I realize that Multiplayer is a big financial incentive, but do you intend to apply the same amount of effort and energy into the Singleplayer experience?

A: (David Braben, Dec 31 2012) A hard one to answer. Almost all of the game world work applies to both single and multiplayer. Exploration is very nearly a single player experience, though much of the fun comes from the fact of the multiplayer world. We do not see these as separate experiences.

Q: Will the evolving universe that Elite: Dangerous is set in make it less enjoyable to play in say 20 years time? As minable resources become more scarce and inflation makes it harder for newcomers to the game. Or will there to be a static non-evolving universe for the single-player mode that will live on?

A: (Michael Brookes, Dec 30 2012) Space is big Most of the galaxy is unexplored when the game begins and there are plenty of resources to be discovered. There will also be an offline single player mode.

Q: I still play the original Elite on my laptop on the way to work. Will I be able to play 'Elite: Dangerous' in a single player mode without any connection to the net? Thanks.

A: (David Braben, Dec 30 2012) Yes, though you will lose the richness of multiplayer.

 

[Nicholas van Rijn]

Yes indeed, but please let those people the choice to say that they are angry if they are angry.

For me it looks like that you and some others who seem NOT being affected by the declined offine mode in any way seem to be angry, because others are angry.

This is something I do not understand...

Let THEM speak if they like but why are you trying to raise up a camp fire to a forest fire ?!?
Because you like to see the forest burning?

I'm tempted to Godwin this thread by citing a famous poem, but essentially, if we always took silently these kind of ill-concived moves, companies would feel even more entitled to ignore their customer base whenever they saw it fit.

By causing this kind of storm in front of a perceived abuse, we're trying to discourage this and other companies from doing it again in future.
Or at least, thinking very well about it.

You too will benefit from this when it will be the moment to decide the next bunch of features to drop or develop, revenue streams to pursue, and other kind of developing decision...

 

[-c-s-]

Had to share this here as it very much on topic:

Well, there you have if folks. Newsletter #50 makes it painfully clear: "This whole issue comes down to what the vision is of the game we are making..."

Like I said: we entered into this with mutually incompatible visions of the game, we just didn't know it.

And: "Is offline mode an impossible problem, or just unfeasible?
It is a creative decision, not wanting to produce an empty game."

This was a choice, not an unavoidable consequence of technical or even budgetary constraints. Braben/FD *CHOSE* not to develop a game that matched the things they originally said which convinced us to give them our money.

Sure, they can mince words about it if they want, to shirk the moral obligation to provide refunds or any kind of recompense to those of us that didn't read between the lines and understand that they were making an online-only, multiplayer-only, DRM-laden game.

Vision can be communicated clearly, early, and unambiguously, and they didn't do that. Many of us have said unequivocally that if this had all started with the tagline, "Elite: MMO", we would've run the other way.

How many of us would've opened our wallets if Braben had stated originally that "an offline game is an empty game" and "cloud processing and always-online entertainment benefits everyone"?

They never really committed to or believed in the value of an offline Elite, and it's clear now that at every step it was the runt of the litter for their efforts, if even that.

"Do you now consider Elite: Dangerous to be an MMO?
Technically, it has always been."

They were disingenuous about the project from the beginning, and gave lip service to several things in order to secure a higher level of backing than if they'd come clean on their real motives at the onset.

This is so much worse than if they'd really just had to scale the project or postpone some features until a later release. People understand that aspect of game development.

I'm a 15yr veteran software developer (native platform, web, and server) and you don't suddenly discover that you've got a product that can't manifest without significant centralized rack resources and a persistent network connection. They knew with each day they developed that they were entrenching that into the game, and they did so purposefully and without transparency to us regarding the sacrificial consequences it was creating for other promised features.

Source

 

[DaveS1]

well i had 25k gbp in 5 accounts pledged (after db, dw telling me no pledge upwards of 5k due to ks uk possible) until i learned of the ipo. spent a multiple of that since on shares, the game, all book projects, related charities, FDEV pizza, my new rigs and updates to alpha/ddf for various community members - and i have not asked a single question ever, except how can i help.

a friendly suggestion from me, if you value your money that much, take better care of it and talk less of it.

ps: hello trolls

That's absolutely right everyone. Stop what you are doing and listen to the wisdom of someone who is clearly considerable richer than you, especially the friendly suggestion where they talk about their money to give you sage advice about how you should not talk about your money.

 

[Deleted member 47764]

For gods sake they tried and it wasn't gonna work out without screwing the rest of the game...

They tried, right before the launch of the game.

The way any development work is that you lay a base plan based on what you're trying to accomplish.
So in that base plan they should have taken account for one of their promises, offline mode.

Instead they did not take account for offline mode play during the design of the game, and when they got to the end of the race they tried to squeeze it in but it didn't work, because they didn't account for it when designing the game.
So they might have tried, but it can't have been something they thought about at all during the development phase.

 

[deusx_ophc]

There was AMA interview with David Braben on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/15od2s/i_am_david_braben_cocreator_of_elite_creator_of/

Here are some quotes from there:

Q: After numerous mishaps and false starts, I have grown extremely averse to multiplayer as a whole, outside of a private LAN. In my current situation, such LAN parties are out of the question, unless it's Starcraft... which I detest. I realize that Multiplayer is a big financial incentive, but do you intend to apply the same amount of effort and energy into the Singleplayer experience?

A: (David Braben, Dec 31 2012) A hard one to answer. Almost all of the game world work applies to both single and multiplayer. Exploration is very nearly a single player experience, though much of the fun comes from the fact of the multiplayer world. We do not see these as separate experiences.

Q: Will the evolving universe that Elite: Dangerous is set in make it less enjoyable to play in say 20 years time? As minable resources become more scarce and inflation makes it harder for newcomers to the game. Or will there to be a static non-evolving universe for the single-player mode that will live on?

A: (Michael Brookes, Dec 30 2012) Space is big Most of the galaxy is unexplored when the game begins and there are plenty of resources to be discovered. There will also be an offline single player mode.

Q: I still play the original Elite on my laptop on the way to work. Will I be able to play 'Elite: Dangerous' in a single player mode without any connection to the net? Thanks.

A: (David Braben, Dec 30 2012) Yes, though you will lose the richness of multiplayer.

quotes dated when? ahh before they knew better (aka last week). great now you know better, too thanks to that #newsletter49

 

[Hermit]

But the game you wanted to get made is not the same as the game I wanted to get made - and at that point (KS stage) FD were promising to make both your game and my game. Now, though, FD have pulled my game and are making your game only. Well that's nice and I am happy for you, truly I am, but that doesn't help me, and I am only asking for what I was promised when I handed over my cash. Your attitude of "I'm all right Jack", or more importantly the fact that you like to parade it in public, makes you look like a really petty, selfish individual with social issues.

+1 from me too, and I'm reminded of Nomadski's previous post, earlier in the thread:
-

I never realised the "it doesn't affect me so its not a problem" argument could actually, ever, get so much acceptance until this thread happened.

I will remember this, and use it in any applicable argument going forward, when [Insert Issue Here] affects [User Here].

Unless it happens to me, it doesn't matter and people should stop moaning. Gotcha.

 

[Jonbe54]

For gods sake they tried and it wasn't gonna work out without screwing the rest of the game...

Well then simply refund the monies they acquired under false pretenses - simple.

Look it's not just the lack of a true offline mode, it's the lack of communication with the very people who got their game off the ground and the truly corporate doublespeak they are attempting to justify their skinflint decision with.

Frontier promised a certain percentage of KS's an offline game as a reward for their money . . they have NEVER retracted that promise UNTIL now. Now that the game is fully funded and secure they have announced that those people who got the game over the line can go and get <snip> for their refund.

<snip>

 

[fatal]

More from internet press:
http://www.dealspwn.com/elite-dangerous-offline-mode-uturn-frankly-shameful-185837

 

[Stavro Mueller]

My 2c:

I will still play and love this game. I'm not even angry about losing offline singleplayer, but I am a bit sad.

Part of the wonder of the original games was that they existed purely in a program inside one computer. One computer was doing everything, to create this unbelievably complex world. I still feel the same about the X games. And you could just fire up this program, whenever you wanted, even it had been years since the last time, and you were right back in that familiar place.

The evolution of the galaxy is a good thing for players who are always on and even for players who make it on maybe once a week or month, but it's not very good for people who only want to fire it up occasionally, say once every few years to play for a few months (which is the kind of thing I do). Actually, for probably most of them, it's still not that bad, but for some, who take comfort in the fact that this is their galaxy, where they are the most important person (which I do not mean in a pejorative way), where everything that happens is happening for the first time, and happening to them alone, are going to lose all of that extra comfort they get from that.

This extra comfort probably feels about the same as nostalgia - as in, a bit pathetic and embarrassing, but deeply satisfying nonetheless. So it's unsurprising that most of those who seem so irked about the loss of offline are those who wax lyrical about their thirty year wait for this game. I guess the newer players just cannot fathom how anyone can feel like that, but I can, because I feel the same.

But I'll still play it, because it's still a great game. In all fairness, I think it's a bit rich to focus all the nostalgia-fuelled ire at FD and DB, given what we _are_ getting. But it has to go somewhere, I guess. Also, FD's reputation in my eyes is a little bruised by the refusal to refund all of these people their money, even if some of them are a little, ah, indelicate in presenting their cases. I know there'd be abusers of that generosity, but an unbesmirched reputation is pretty valuable.

tl;dr I will still play. Upset people have a point, though some seem a bit OTT. FD should refund.

 

[Ventura]

For gods sake they tried and it wasn't gonna work out without screwing the rest of the game...

Only someone who knows nothing about software development would say that, because do you seriously believe that they couldn't have provided an offline mode without compromising their online one?

Of course they could, they just chose not to. And, even though this has clearly been their course of action for months, now, they also chose to not let us know until the last minute. Ergo, people unhappy. It's not rocket science.

 

[poet1960]

For gods sake they tried and it wasn't gonna work out without screwing the rest of the game...

That excuse might work for the kiddies, but I've been around the block a few times. THEY BUILT THE GAME. Get that? They made it. If they want to make an online only game that's fine, just be up front about it. Don't promise it will have offline and then at the last minute suddenly go, "golly gee, even though we have been building this game for approx 2 years, no where in that time did we ever consider that it might not be viable." Considering they built it EXACTLY how they wanted tells me they knew, but just waited because they knew they wouldn't get as much moolah.

They might and that's a pretty weak might, have actually toyed with the idea of offline play, but it's rather obvious that it has been playing second fiddle to online only all along. They just didn't tell the general public about it in plain english.

 

[Papa Smurf]

There was AMA interview with David Braben on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/15od2s/i_am_david_braben_cocreator_of_elite_creator_of/

Here are some quotes from there:

Q: After numerous mishaps and false starts, I have grown extremely averse to multiplayer as a whole, outside of a private LAN. In my current situation, such LAN parties are out of the question, unless it's Starcraft... which I detest. I realize that Multiplayer is a big financial incentive, but do you intend to apply the same amount of effort and energy into the Singleplayer experience?

A: (David Braben, Dec 31 2012) A hard one to answer. Almost all of the game world work applies to both single and multiplayer. Exploration is very nearly a single player experience, though much of the fun comes from the fact of the multiplayer world. We do not see these as separate experiences.

Q: Will the evolving universe that Elite: Dangerous is set in make it less enjoyable to play in say 20 years time? As minable resources become more scarce and inflation makes it harder for newcomers to the game. Or will there to be a static non-evolving universe for the single-player mode that will live on?

A: (Michael Brookes, Dec 30 2012) Space is big Most of the galaxy is unexplored when the game begins and there are plenty of resources to be discovered. There will also be an offline single player mode.

Q: I still play the original Elite on my laptop on the way to work. Will I be able to play 'Elite: Dangerous' in a single player mode without any connection to the net? Thanks.

A: (David Braben, Dec 30 2012) Yes , though you will lose the richness of multiplayer.

*Chuckles* Sorry I was not able to resist...

 

[Adept]

Do the right thing (irrespective of whether FD are legally liable) and refund him his money and he goes away.

Ignore him, and even if he doesn't carry out his threats, there will be a long line of people behind him.

That's just the net effect of what Frontier have done here.

A certain problem in giving in to terrorists and paying ransom demands does spring to mind. I do not think making exceptions for such behavior is a good idea. He wants to behave like that, the responsibility is on him.

 

[deusx_ophc]

That's absolutely right everyone. Stop what you are doing and listen to the wisdom of someone who is clearly considerable richer than you, especially the friendly suggestion where they talk about their money to give you sage advice about how you should not talk about your money.

if you value your money, take care of it. and don't start talk about how money matters. my point is, it doesn't. seems a difficult concept, i know

 

[chris5281]

This some of the ugliest facets of humanity on display.

Heh, hyperbole much?

I really wish I could live in your world where some dude having a tantrum on an internet forum represents 'some of the ugliest facets of humanity on display'. It sounds like a magical place!

Turns out there's lots of silly things being said by participants on both sides. Arguing on the internet, eh?

 

[DraigUK]

Rather callous attitude don't you think? Might not bode well for them in the long run. Oh well, time will tell.

Callous? You could interpret it that way, I suppose. Although I'm not.
I just see it as being realistic. I've been where you are now in previous games, and seriously it's not worth the bother.
At some point you really will need to face the reality of the situation, see that FD are not going to change their minds on this anytime soon.
So, get your refund if you can, sell your account and move on to something new or enjoy 3.9 tomorrow in solo mode and Gamma on Saturday.
Really, there isn't much else you can do.

 

[Nicholas van Rijn]

well i had 25k gbp in 5 accounts pledged (after db, dw telling me no pledge upwards of 5k due to ks uk possible) until i learned of the ipo. spent a multiple of that since on shares, the game, all book projects, related charities, FDEV pizza, my new rigs and updates to alpha/ddf for various community members - and i have not asked a single question ever, except how can i help.

a friendly suggestion from me, if you value your money that much, take better care of it and talk less of it.

ps: hello trolls

Nice for you. I said in fact "decent percentage", not "all". Anyway, for what I care they could refund all my quote to some charity. I've already written off this amount the moment I pledged.

Still, I believe that in this instance FD behaved badly. And if we keep silent when companies behaves in a way we believe is bad, it means that the next time those companies will feel entitled to do the same again.

 

[nexxo]

No....please reread their posts!

And: "Is offline mode an impossible problem, or just unfeasible?
It is a creative decision, not wanting to produce an empty game."

This was a choice, not an unavoidable consequence of technical or even budgetary constraints. Braben/FD *CHOSE* not to develop a game that matched the things they originally said which convinced us to give them our money.

Now you know that is not true. Two reasons were mentioned:
- An offline game would result in a relatively empty, static universe. Previous feedback on these forums about the Beta galaxy feeling empty, repetitive, boring and lifeless made the team believe that this would not be received as an acceptable solution.
- To still create an offline game would divert too many resources that they currently do not have to spare.

For what it's worth, I think Frontier should make a clean break and offer everybody who wants out a refund, including the Alphas and Betas.

 

[Hermit]

More from internet press:
http://www.dealspwn.com/elite-dangerous-offline-mode-uturn-frankly-shameful-185837

A good article. There is some suspicion that FD did announce the inclusion of offline in an effort to boost pledges towards the end of their kickstarter. Regardless of their reasons for doing it, the fact of the matter is that they did it and should fulfill the promise.