Pay2Win made it to Elite

[VR] DDM_Reaper20

[VR] DDM_Reaper20
TiberiusDuval said:
Paying for ships or modules with real money, thats nasty poison. I'll block every pre-August Python2 I see.
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Your choice. ;) Mine is to pay for that ship. a) because I can, b) because the same ship will be available for all other comers, three months later, for credits.
I used to play World of Tanks. I still flinch when I remember how much money I sank into THAT game... and I SUCKED at it, so I did NOT "pay to win." "Pay to lose," would be a far more accurate statement.
Same with ED. I like to play solo. PvP? Not a chance. I'm terrible at PvP, and I sincerely doubt a Python 2 would confer any kind of advantage over a PvP murderboat (even IF it did, a great pilot in a bad ship trounces a terrible pilot in a good ship, any day).

HOWEVER, if at all possible, I will choose a bare-bones Python 2. I don't want a pre-built ship. I want to outfit this new ship according to MY taste, and I recently spent some time filling up my raw material bucket... so, I'm ready. :D
 

Einar Donarsson

Einar Donarsson
rootsrat said:
I will give it a break when I will be 100% sure what they meant.

Until then it's all assumptions, one way or another.
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"Pre-built Ships. Pre-Built Ship packages will offer Commanders the opportunity to purchase ships that have been given a significant upgrade from their base models."

There you got it more specific. Happy now?
 

CMDRdabbler4

CMDRdabbler4
Einar Donarsson said:
They come pre fitted and engineered. You can skip playing the Game.
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Thank you, so to clarify it's not pay to win, but 'pay-to-avoid-poor-game-loops-we-will-not-fix'.
It's interesting that fdev over-value their developers time too much to re-invest into ED, while under-valuing the communities time that pays that developer wage.

As i've seen on other posts about this; It's quite simple how to go about this ethically. Force a subscription service on the base game, and promise to invest a majority of all the sub profits back into improving the current game features first (i.e. features wanted by those paying customers), and deprioritize all the other crap as either nice to have DLC or microtransactions. Simple.

Until then, they will slowly kill off whatever little support they have from your veteran players.
 

Weps

Weps
graflex22 said:
i can already hear the cries and moans when the noob with no cash has their newly purchased Python MKII explode and they don't have the credits for the rebuy.
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You mean the cries and moans of the support team, because everyone in that situation will make a ticket threatening a refund, the small claims court, "exposing on YouTube", their "very good lawyer" or their good friend King Charles himself.

And they will get it, probably at some point no questions asked.
 

FixMeNow

FixMeNow
[VR] DDM_Reaper20 said:
Your choice. ;) Mine is to pay for that ship. a) because I can, b) because the same ship will be available for all other comers, three months later, for credits.
I used to play World of Tanks. I still flinch when I remember how much money I sank into THAT game... and I SUCKED at it, so I did NOT "pay to win." "Pay to lose," would be a far more accurate statement.
Same with ED. I like to play solo. PvP? Not a chance. I'm terrible at PvP, and I sincerely doubt a Python 2 would confer any kind of advantage over a PvP murderboat (even IF it did, a great pilot in a bad ship trounces a terrible pilot in a good ship, any day).

HOWEVER, if at all possible, I will choose a bare-bones Python 2. I don't want a pre-built ship. I want to outfit this new ship according to MY taste, and I recently spent some time filling up my raw material bucket... so, I'm ready. :D
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Your Choice, but if you start paying for something like early access ships, then it will be exclusive ships only on the store, then PVP modules.

I am all for paying for good cosmetics but ED could turn out true P2W
 

Morbad

Morbad
Ozric said:
What do you win exactly?
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Being able to shortcut ship acquisition gives quite a distinct advantage to any tasks in which it would be advantageous to have access to those ships. When that shortcut can be had by spending out-of-game money, that's pay-to-win.

The game has always been pay-to-win, to some extent. For example, I have beta backer insurance, which has never done me much good--due to my choice to play a character that doesn't treat his ejections frivolously--but would still be massively beneficial to any combat oriented player who isn't so adverse to those insurance claims. Another example would be cosmetics before the introduction of night vision, especially back when protracted stealth was practical; I've been in more than a few battles where dark colored ships, combined with the inability to target vessel, made wing engagements a kind of cup game, dramatically reducing the ability to focus on specific targets.

This ships for ARX thing blows all that out of the water. It's about as blatant pay-to-win as something can get without descending into hairsplitting pedantry.

robbyp said:
Its not play to win, there is no winning in this game, no end point. No way to force your play style on other people. No method to force people to play in hard mode.
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The game doesn't need an end condition to have numerous win conditions, many of which are inherently competitive. It's also a persistent, shared world, across any and all modes. What other people have has always mattered, unless one goes out of their way to ignore large swaths of what the game is intended to be.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Ozric
Einar Donarsson said:
"Pre-built Ships. Pre-Built Ship packages will offer Commanders the opportunity to purchase ships that have been given a significant upgrade from their base models."

There you got it more specific. Happy now?
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Ships have all E rated Core modules when you buy them and only a Shield Generator. An A rated ship is a significant upgrade from the base model, even if it's just the core modules.

Stating things you don't know for certain as fact, and spreading that around is dangerous.
 

Rainbro

Rainbro
rootsrat said:
Oh so you just assume then.

That's what I thought :)
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I mean, I'd assume so as well. Maybe Frontier do think that selling A-rated ships for IRL money would be appealing, but that would require them to get confused about what takes the bulk of time in a "ship build" in the exact same post they talk about Engineering changes. Not out of the question either way though.
 

Mrc_NorthEast

Mrc_NorthEast
Oh and Fdev please fix the USD prices for Arx vs the rest of the world. That has never made sense to me and since I am in the US I have never bought Arx due to it being more expensive here for some unknown reason. Are you mad at the Us for some reason???
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Ozric
Morbad said:
Being able to shortcut ship acquisition gives quite a distinct advantage to any tasks in which it would be advantageous to have access to those ships. When that shortcut can be had by spending out-of-game money, that's pay-to-win.

The game has always been pay-to-win, to some extent. For example, I have beta backer insurance, which has never done me much good--due to my choice to play a character that doesn't treat his ejections frivolously--but would still be massively beneficial to any combat oriented player who isn't so adverse to those insurance claims. Another example would be cosmetics before the introduction of night vision, especially back when protracted stealth was practical; I've been in more than a few battles where dark colored ships, combined with the inability to target vessel, made wing engagements a kind of cup game, dramatically reducing the ability to focus on specific targets.

This ships for ARX thing blows all that out of the water. It's about as blatant pay-to-win as something can get without descending into hairsplitting pedantry.
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Well indeed. I already paid out of game money to have access to the game early, and to start the game with an advantage.

I guess maybe if Frontier had done the Python early access as a DLC people might think of it differently. Although it is somewhat ironic that LEP owners don't get the early access.
 

Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
amigacooke {macOS} said:
Yes, on the 7 August.
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1713891902124.png
 

[VR] DDM_Reaper20

[VR] DDM_Reaper20
rootsrat said:
It depends how it's going to work.

Take this scenario: you buy a new account, and then buy A-rated Python Mk1 in store. If you start the new game with this ship, you now win the right to seal club all the E-rated Sidewinders the new players fly around the starting systems :D
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FixMeNow said:
Your Choice, but if you start paying for something like early access ships, then it will be exclusive ships only on the store, then PVP modules.

I am all for paying for good cosmetics but ED could turn out true P2W
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Well, I have all the ships I want right now, and I am old enough to know what I want, and since I fork the quids over, and work for them, too, I get to decide. :) I do not do PVP, so that is all the same to me. Exclusive ships on the store? Hard pass. The Python 2 WILL be sold for credits, three months later, however, I do not feel guilt over buying one. I hardly think that my choice will tip FDEV over the edge into demanding money for "PVP modules"...even IF that happened, I would not be buying them (I don't do PVP, after all).

P2W... yeah, for the seller. Take WoT. I had more than one premium tank in my garage, some of them quite powerful. Guess what: I regurarly got my backside handed to me by players in much inferior tanks... because those players were much, much better than I was. Same with ED. If there was a ship that, on paper, could trounce a plasma FDL murderboat, I STILL would get walked all over by an accomplished PVP player. NO CONTEST. NONE. Anybody believing differently is only kidding themselves. (Between players of very similar skill, that would be a different matter, obviously, but even then -- evading other players is rather easy, forcing somebody to stand and fight rather hard, so...)

FDEV want to make money. Nothing wrong with that. You don't want to pay for that? Perfectly understandable. Vote with your wallet, same as I do.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Viajero
Ozric said:
What do you win exactly?
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Win is everywhere in Elite. Quick example: say a player starts playing Elite in a Sidewinder, and another starts in an Arx paid pre-build ship. Those two players happen to meet at a CZ in opposite sides, or at a RES fighting for some loot or cargo. Who do you think will win?

Or imagine those 2 players play in opposite sides of a BGS confrontation.

Etc etc etc.

Tons of other scenarios that you can have in Elite, win is everywhere where player interests meet, be it in open or solo.
 
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