Powerplay 2.0 deep dive - Frontier Live 27th March

[Northpin]

This is such a huge opportunity for enhancing the game, I really hope you guys realize this

Only for open, well, or 100% for open, 50% for solo, exclude private

Excluding parts of the player base or penalizing them for playing in their preferred mode will be the huge opportunity to actually kill the game, not to enhance it.
ED needs to make sure that everyone can do their part, unhindered and without penalties, no matter the mode they play.

Do you believe otherwise? If so, google Dual Universe, which was supposed to be everything Elite is not - open only, player driven economy, player bases, client-server (so no clogging possible), any Bingo card imaginable that would make ED great again, Dual Universe did it - and they have like 20 players online in Steam Charts.
And guess what, they get the same comments like wasted opportunities and such

But anyway, let's keep open only discussions for the dedicated thread.

 

[IstvaanDCIV]

I must say that I really like the sound of the changes being made to PowerPlay, and they've certainly increased my interest in giving it a go once it comes out. Such a shame that this deeper look at PP2.0 has been somewhat overshadowed by other announcements.

 

[FlyingCrab]

Excluding parts of the player base or penalizing them for playing in their preferred mode will be the huge opportunity to actually kill the game, not to enhance it.
ED needs to make sure that everyone can do their part, unhindered and without penalties, no matter the mode they play.

Do you believe otherwise? If so, google Dual Universe, which was supposed to be everything Elite is not - open only, player driven economy, player bases, client-server (so no clogging possible), any Bingo card imaginable that would make ED great again, Dual Universe did it - and they have like 20 players online in Steam Charts.
And guess what, they get the same comments like wasted opportunities and such

But anyway, let's keep open only discussions for the dedicated thread.

my God, what are you talking about, the possibility of a full-fledged influence on the BGS without the possibility of direct antidepressants gives permissiveness, for example, 10 people and 10 opponents each sit in their private game, and all do the same actions in the system as a result, everything stands still and you can not interfere in any way to the opponent, if the game wants to be alive, it must be filled with life, who loves solo and private, then let it be, but pp and bgs for them should either be closed or reduced by 50%

 

[Rebel Yell]

From what I understand Powers can't die but can suffer catastrophic failures much more easily because turmoil (and turmoil order) is no longer a thing, and that systems are treated as individuals re targeting.

Yeah, that's my impression too... and that means that probably will be hard to "manage" a power via centralised leadership as it is right now.

 

[CMDR Daiyus]

I'm really liking what I'm seeing so far, and I can see myself and my group of friends getting more involved with PP2.0 than we ever did with PP1.0. The only outstanding question is what's happened to the PP1.0 modules? Care packages after reaching Tier 10 with a power sounds like they could be included there, but they seemed coy to define what's in them, so will the original PP modules now be more broadly available, i.e. through Tech Brokers?

 

[Rebel Yell]

Excluding parts of the player base or penalizing them for playing in their preferred mode will be the huge opportunity to actually kill the game, not to enhance it.
ED needs to make sure that everyone can do their part, unhindered and without penalties, no matter the mode they play.

Then give to me the unique CG modules I don't have... but that didn't stop me to play lol.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Now... i wonder if there will be anything about powers actually being able to fail and die...

One thing I heard in the stream confirmed an old belief of mine. The Powers were described as figureheads for a movement. You really can’t kill a movement… only suppress it for a while.

 

[Northpin]

my God, what are you talking about, the possibility of a full-fledged influence on the BGS without the possibility of direct antidepressants gives permissiveness, for example, 10 people and 10 opponents each sit in their private game, and all do the same actions in the system as a result, everything stands still and you can not interfere in any way to the opponent, if the game wants to be alive, it must be filled with life, who loves solo and private, then let it be, but pp and bgs for them should either be closed or reduced by 50%

BGS was designed as asynchronous indirect competitive play (PVE). Most often than not, direct PVP will have a detrimental effect on BGS
PP1.0 was also designed around fully fledged PVE activities and again around asynchronous indirect competitive play
Basically both activities relay on filling up PVE buckets and counting up who did what on a daily basis for BGS and on a weekly basis for PP

So, my God, what are YOU talking about? Dreams.txt?

It remains to be seen how PP2.0 will come out, but i wont really bet on anything open-only and not even so much on "more reasons for pvp" as it was advertised in previous streams (not like "more reasons for pvp" means anything at all).

Only 3-4 months if all goes well and we will find out.

 

[Northpin]

Then give to me the unique CG modules I don't have... but that didn't stop me to play lol.

You had the opportunity to do your part, but you didnt. That's a missed opportunity
Since i started at the end of November 2018, basically few weeks before 3.3, I also missed all the old and epic events, like Lugh wars, Building Colonia, PP10 startup, the player supported Power, the Salome story and many others

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yeah, that's my impression too... and that means that probably will be hard to "manage" a power via centralised leadership as it is right now.

The thing is (and we both know of the teeth grinding abyss of managing a power) that...maybe thats a good thing?

From whats been said, any expansion is valid-so that means they won't interfere with each other. Currently there are very few 'good' choices and most are really trying to eat CC from rivals while damaging your own CC. If a rival band disagree (or some new pledge tries to do something) often it ends in disaster.

In V2 managing will be identifying and exploiting weaknesses in other powers and telling people on Discords where they should work, and that randoms, 5C etc won't need to be countered. So there will always be organisation, just focused more on fun and less on trying to get people to vote for consolidation or scrap a 5C expansion.

 

[Rubbernuke]

BGS was designed as asynchronous indirect competitive play (PVE). Most often than not, direct PVP will have a detrimental effect on BGS
PP1.0 was also designed around fully fledged PVE activities and again around asynchronous indirect competitive play
Basically both activities relay on filling up PVE buckets and counting up who did what on a daily basis for BGS and on a weekly basis for PP

So, my God, what are YOU talking about? Dreams.txt?

It remains to be seen how PP2.0 will come out, but i wont really bet on anything open-only and not even so much on "more reasons for pvp" as it was advertised in previous streams (not like "more reasons for pvp" means anything at all).

Only 3-4 months if all goes well and we will find out.

Sort of.

The BGS is an abstracted aggregate system where buckets fill buckets and activity is pooled into an anonymized output via BGS states during a tick (about a day). Cause and effect are impossible to tell apart (or on the most general of terms).

Powerplay is virtually abstraction free. It runs in real time and allows for cause and effect to be seen in real time (and potentially prevented). You can generate merits, move them, drop them and see them appear on the UI to the minute- and that merits are 1:1 with no diminishing returns. The cycle is just a designated end, but the 'tick' is by the minute.

PvE in PP is also paper thin- mainly as it boils down to an open ended wing massacre or open ended wing cargo drop. Its failure point is that despite having a huge play area (essentially a CZ the size of the bubble) nothing happens in two modes outside of PvE generating areas (such as combat / hauling expansions) and that traversing this arena only holds danger in Open (due to incredibly feeble NPCs). So really players were supposed to fill in the gaps- so in any design either players become NPCs or NPCs become players because its this empty time that kills it.

 

[Darkfyre99]

BGS was designed as asynchronous indirect competitive play (PVE). Most often than not, direct PVP will have a detrimental effect on BGS

Technically, the BGS was designed to simulate an evolving background in the game, hence the name. The fact that some players use it as a proxy for territorial gameplay does not obviate this fact.

PP1.0 was also designed around fully fledged PVE activities and again around asynchronous indirect competitive play
Basically both activities relay on filling up PVE buckets and counting up who did what on a daily basis for BGS and on a weekly basis for PP

So, my God, what are YOU talking about? Dreams.txt?

It remains to be seen how PP2.0 will come out, but i wont really bet on anything open-only and not even so much on "more reasons for pvp" as it was advertised in previous streams (not like "more reasons for pvp" means anything at all).

Only 3-4 months if all goes well and we will find out.

Personally, I’d be gobsmacked and flabbergasted if PP 2.0 generates epic amounts of PvP. Not because most of the player activity takes place in Solo/PG. The significant majority of players play in Open, after all, and the PowerPlayerbase is a cohort naturally inclined to play in Open IMO.

This game simply has neither the networking architecture nor the instancing rules to generate epic amounts of spontaneous PvP. Personally, I’d rather have a larger overall PowerPlayerbase than smaller one. The feature is much more likely to receive updates, fixes, and balancing that way.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

One thing I heard in the stream confirmed an old belief of mine. The Powers were described as figureheads for a movement. You really can’t kill a movement… only suppress it for a while.

But figureheads can be replaced, and the powers are named after people, not movements. In that case, the powers should have organization names and their leaders be replaceable.

Also, movements can be killed. Many movements in history are long dead.

 

[Jmanis]

Excluding parts of the player base or penalizing them for playing in their preferred mode will be the huge opportunity to actually kill the game, not to enhance it.
ED needs to make sure that everyone can do their part, unhindered and without penalties, no matter the mode they play.

FD also stated they wanted to make PP more accessible. Restricting / reducing effect to particular modes goes directly against that.

All FD need to do is provide balanced incentive for all activities, regardless of mode. Easier said than done of course, but PP was never wholly and solely about PvP in the sense of pew pew blowing up ships.

 

[Northpin]

So really players were supposed to fill in the gaps- so in any design either players become NPCs or NPCs become players because its this empty time that kills it.

Well, "were supposed" but actually they didn't, because no matter the way we look at it and no matter how blunt it may sound, in any activity in ED - PP included - the interactions with other players are optional (that's a less blunt way of saying that other players are optional - by design).

 

[Rubbernuke]

FD also stated they wanted to make PP more accessible. Restricting / reducing effect to particular modes goes directly against that.

All FD need to do is provide balanced incentive for all activities, regardless of mode. Easier said than done of course, but PP was never wholly and solely about PvP in the sense of pew pew blowing up ships.

The issue will always be that you need something to counter a player- another pledge or NPC. If the lions share of PP V2 is in the BGS then there is ample scope for graded NPCs. FD also talked about organic PP conflict in valuable systems and around FCs which only other players can do- not unless you have substantial NPCs again. In the end it has to be one or the other as half way kills the concept. Ironically having rock hard NPCs might make Open and PG more a thing, and solo less efficient (a bit like Helldivers).

The other problem is ensuring activities do not overlap (like they do in V1) and that certain tasks are Open only, while others can be done in solo but not mix them in such a way solo provides an advantage.

 

[Brrokk]

BGS was designed as asynchronous indirect competitive play (PVE). Most often than not, direct PVP will have a detrimental effect on BGS
PP1.0 was also designed around fully fledged PVE activities and again around asynchronous indirect competitive play
Basically both activities relay on filling up PVE buckets and counting up who did what on a daily basis for BGS and on a weekly basis for PP

So, my God, what are YOU talking about? Dreams.txt?

It remains to be seen how PP2.0 will come out, but i wont really bet on anything open-only and not even so much on "more reasons for pvp" as it was advertised in previous streams (not like "more reasons for pvp" means anything at all).

Only 3-4 months if all goes well and we will find out.

I'm afraid I'm still predicting mountain ranges of salt. FD may well (from what they're saying) try to make some element of PP2 Open-only. But given their record on "expected gameplay" they'll probably overlook easy work-arounds such as flying and docking in Solo and relogging to Open to hand stuff in, or blocking everyone on the other "side", or fiddling router settings to disallow P2P connections. (That last sounds exotic, but there will be easy guides to doing it on Reddit about five seconds after an incentive to do it arises). The "it's not working like was promised" agony will be very loud.

Well, I've never tried PP. I might be tempted to give it a go if they make it look interesting. At any rate, I'd like to try out those fun Packhounds.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Well, "were supposed" but actually they didn't, because no matter the way we look at it and no matter how blunt it may sound, in any activity in ED - PP included - the interactions with other players are optional (that's a less blunt way of saying that other players are optional - by design).

Thats the point you miss- because NPCs are so weak it allows solo and PG to be the most efficient route to do anything.

I'd argue to that Powerplay was designed for PvP Open first, given that you have explicit pledges, defined territory, real time feedback, and 1:1 effort (in that, one player can make all the difference but also can lose the cycle, and be stopped directly if it all lines up). You can instantly know what someone is doing by seeing if they have a Power bounty (and check it against local station news), scan them for PP cargo (is it prep materials, fort cargo?). You also have defined areas such as expansions, capitals. It all adds up to a system that is Open friendly. Adding that together its easy to see intention and act accordingly.

You can contrast that with the BGS, which was designed to anonymize action, even in open. I can't scan for what missions you currently hold, where you drop scan data or who you support.

 

[BDelacroix]

Tinfoil - what are the chances there will be a Titan or two left by the end of the current war arc to play into things?

(Don't take me too seriously here. I can already see a few caveats from the rational side of me, like "Players need to be prevented from bypassing its existing defensive measures and blowing it up within a month". To name one.)

Given one of the ships for arx layouts has anti xeno weapons, it seems there is some intent for the aliens to be around at end of year at least.

 

[BDelacroix]

The open only thread is --> that way.