Pay2Win made it to Elite

[Helmut Grokenberger]

What gets on my goat, is the fact that like SC, elite isn't polished. I'd even argue its not finished. That the oddity rollout was half cooked unfinished. And we paid for it! Just like that other game. And now we're about to embark upon paying for ships, again just like that other game.
It's a pattern all too familiar.

You're not paying for ships. You're paying for early access (Python) or progress (prebuilts); but everything Frontier plans to sell for ARX can be gained in-game, and in a reasonable time frame. And in contrast to that other game, there are no wipes in Elite, so you actually get to keep what you earn in-game, and the prebuilts you can buy actually exist and aren't just pictures. Part of the incentive to buy ships in SC is certainly the fear of losing your stuff on the next wipe. And don't believe for a second there will be "no next wipe".

Unlike the other game, Odyssey made tangible progress in a time frame that's not measured in decades. Elite, along with Odyssey, is actually a complete playable game with a huge scope. Are there bugs? Sure. But I don't think its neither fair no appropriate to throw it in with that other hot mess. You should stop fearmongering.

 

[Rat Catcher]

There will come a time where that investment to perceived value ratio starts to tip unfavourably, and that's when I'll stop buying.

That is very mature behaviour - and works on the same principal as my own. I will not part with money if I consider I don't get value from that spend, no ifs, buts or maybes... If I perceive value, for me, in spending a tenner for something I am very likely to enjoy, I skip my next Happy Meal... (Something I have never had, incidentally, but it is about the same...)

For many, we're already at that point, and they're free to do what they feel they must to make themselves heard.

Yes, saying no, as an individual, is sensible, saying no to another individual exercising the same freedom is not.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

Somehow, the cynic in me believes it is going to be very successful, but I won't be too upset if it falls flat, as long as it waits until after 7th May to fail

Most likely scenario I see is a lot of people read something like "Elite dangerous adds first new ship in years" somewhere, come back to the game, see that it's a timed unlock, see what whatever pet peeve they have isn't fixed and quit again without even reinstalling if they're efficient.

Isn't that the same with all games that introduces add-on product? Those with disposable income may elect to purchase, those without have no choice - until the product is given for free (Remember every player who had not purchased Horizons was given it around the launch of the Odyssey expansion).

That's a transaction not a vote. With most games the monetization is laid clear from the start though which is catching people off-guard here thinking they have a say in this.

 

[CMDR Daiyus]

That is very mature behaviour - and works on the same principal as my own. I will not part with money if I consider I don't get value from that spend, no ifs, buts or maybes... If I perceive value, for me, in spending a tenner for something I am very likely to enjoy, I skip my next Happy Meal... (Something I have never had, incidentally, but it is about the same...)

Yes, saying no, as an individual, is sensible, saying no to another individual exercising the same freedom is not.

Indeed. Others expressing an opinion, even if opposed to my own, is to be expected. Anyone is free to disagree with me, and to try to make their point understood, this is the basis of healthy debate. Anyone "telling" me I'm wrong and doing the wrong thing will be met with resistance.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Most likely scenario I see is a lot of people read something like "Elite dangerous adds first new ship in years" somewhere, come back to the game, see that it's a timed unlock, see what whatever pet peeve they have isn't fixed and quit again without even reinstalling if they're efficient.

Sounds reasonable.
Equally likely that a number will think "It is only a tenner" and bite...

Time will certainly tell.

 

[Rat Catcher]

which is catching people off-guard here thinking they have a say in this.

Absolutely!

There are 2 options, the individual may exercise one of them. A business isn't a democracy, no matter how important they tell their customers they are, the only important customers are those who continue to open their wallets, after all, without revenue from any legal source, there will not be a business, very undemocratic, but true.

FD are in a bit of a financial corner (but only a bit) if they believe the current scheme will raise reasonable revenue they will try, if it doesn't, perhaps they will approach things a little differently next time?

I know my laid-back approach to this new scheme won't make me any new lifetime friends, but I admit to being old enough that even a 3 month wait for a new toy may be too long... I have a small amount of disposable income, I will spend it...

 

[[VR] DDM_Reaper20]

Only people with enough disposable income can vote, the rest default to no, the vote can pass even if the majority votes no (making it an abstain vote that doesn't matter).


There's diminishing returns.


It's not the ideology, it's the lack of corruption and authoritarian regimes that make most of the difference.


But it's a "vote" and if enough people vote yes it will have ramifications for others (in both this Elite related scenario and other more real life things).

That's democracy for you in a nutshell. The alternative is infinitely worse. I prefer to have a choice (even if the outcome might not be entirely to my liking) over having no choice at all -- although in case of games, I ALWAYS have the choice of moving on if the direction the game is going in does not suit me.

 

[Jinx Chrome]

I hope that those people who are so vocal about this "injustice" are equally invested in things like saving our democracies, taking care of nature and environment protection and being good people overall.

 

[Untilting]

I admit to being old enough that even a 3 month wait for a new toy may be too long...

Hang in there, Cmdr, hang in there. Although you do highlight that given the age profile of the player base, Frontier's best option commercially may be to set up a funeral plan subdivision. Buy 1000000 ARX and get a free coffin!

 

[Rat Catcher]

Buy 1000000 ARX and get a free coffin!

Thank you, I now have Pepsi Max making its way into the mechanical switches of my keyboard...

 

[Untilting]

Thank you, I now have Pepsi Max making its way into the mechanical switches of my keyboard...

Sorry about that. I'm withdrawing my suggestion anyway, it could be viewed as Pay2Win.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I hope that those people who are so vocal about this "injustice" are equally invested in things like saving our democracies, taking care of nature and environment protection and being good people overall.

That's one of the reasons I don't have copious amounts of spare time to spend playing games. It's also one of the reasons why I find all the various types of of Pay-to-Win so troublesome. There are a lot of predatory business practices done in the name of profit out there, and I have to deal with that kind of crap every day. Gaming used to be an escape from that kind environment, unless I'm playing a dystopian future game where it's part of the setting. Now, it's becoming more and more normalized.

 

[Spaceman-FXL5]

BTW @Rat Catcher and @Untilting, I took the plunge and bought Ody on Sunday, as I understand I can get the P2 with CR in Ody but will be16,000 Arx in Horizons only. Seeing as this is about the same price as Ody on Epic I got for £9.99, I thought I would do that in stead of spending my Arx on something which may turn out great or may be absolutely useless.

The only gripe I have is the EDO tutorial which I have a few weeks to manage and set up all my on foot DS4 controls, as there is none set up at the moment, even though all my DS4 controls for ship and SRV came across from EDH fine.
I assume I have a few weeks as Hadad looks very strong at the moment (assuming no nerf on Thursday tick haha)

 

[aRJay]

Hang in there, Cmdr, hang in there. Although you do highlight that given the age profile of the player base, Frontier's best option commercially may be to set up a funeral plan subdivision. Buy 1000000 ARX and get a free coffin!

By the time I need a coffin I won’t be bothered about it, they would be better setting up a health care plan to keep the customer base active in the game and store.

Sorry about that. I'm withdrawing my suggestion anyway, it could be viewed as Pay2Win.

It just needs a few tweaks.

 

[Rat Catcher]

BTW @Rat Catcher and @Untilting, I took the plunge and bought Ody on Sunday, as I understand I can get the P2 with CR in Ody but will be16,000 Arx in Horizons only. Seeing as this is about the same price as Ody on Epic I got for £9.99, I thought I would do that in stead of spending my Arx on something which may turn out great or may be absolutely useless.

Sensible enough move, and you get to cuss over foot bindings too...

I assume I have a few weeks as Hadad looks very strong at the moment (assuming no nerf on Thursday tick haha)

AXI infor reckons around 5 weeks before Hadad is ripe, gives you some time to get everything sorted - now keep an eye open for G3 suits & guns at Pioneer Supplies!

 

[Krash]

Just watched Yamik's take on this. Personally, I really don't care about Pay2Win. But a good point about that is when its successful from the company's standpoint, it will naturally encourage them to add more grind. And then add the Pay2win option to skip that grind. Its a revenue driven cycle that doesn't add creativity or innovation into the game. Gamers lose out in the long run.

 

[Spaceman-FXL5]

Gaming used to be an escape from that kind environment, unless I'm playing a dystopian future game where it's part of the setting.

That's why I'm building up on my Single player, offline games that I haven't played yet (Bloodborne and Fallout 4 amongst others) (that don't need t'Internet and also getting solar panels to play these on TV and console in case of the 'escalation' and t'Internet is not available). Sorry to sound a bit pessimistic and I doubt it will happen, but it is a possibility it MAY happen.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Just watched Yamik's take on this. Personally, I really don't care about Pay2Win. But a good point about that is when its successful from the company's standpoint, it will naturally encourage them to add more grind. And then add the Pay2win option to skip that grind. Its a revenue driven cycle that doesn't add creativity or innovation into the game. Gamers lose out in the long run.

Did he casually mention that FD are also looking to make engineering easier, or did it slip his mind...
Naturally, his is one of the "never show me" youtube channels for me.

 

[Morbad]

Taking Elite in its current form there's an argument that those with Odyssey being able to walk around on planets and do on-foot content is unfair on those that haven't bought the DLC. My view is that if you want access to that mechanic that had to be paid for to make, then you have to buy it.

My argument is that the dichotomy is harming my experience, even if I am the one who has the DLC. Opting out of using what I've already paid for does not give me the balanced game I want, nor is there any way for me to get that game by paying more, because the partial segregation is itself the source of the issue. As long as there are multiple tiers of players interacting within the same persistent setting, the system is unfair to everyone.

As it stands, Frontier is making it clear that the introduction of any future paid content is going harm my perception of the game's value, irrespective of whether my LEP covers it or not. They've gone from actively trying to minimize the balance issues involved, to neglecting them, to embracing them.

A business isn't a democracy, no matter how important they tell their customers they are, the only important customers are those who continue to open their wallets, after all, without revenue from any legal source, there will not be a business, very undemocratic, but true.

Business is at least as much a barrier as a facilitator and the fact that this game is a product is an unfortunate reality, not something to embrace. Well, at least from a player perspective. FDEV stakeholders will have different priorities.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Business is at least as much a barrier as a facilitator and the fact that this game is a product is an unfortunate reality,

Business is business, it either makes money, or ceases to exist. This game is a product of a business, isn't it?

I doubt too much time has to pass before FD decides if this business venture can be classed as successful. Until then, their actions will be disected at many levels by the few forum members so inclined, and nothing is likely to change because of it. Although it will make interesting reading.