DLC18 discussion and predictions

[NZFanatic]

Your average person won't gain any specific benefit from that knowledge (at least when framing it in the way you're suggesting). Societally, people know exactly what you mean when you say "bird" and they know exactly what you mean when you say "dinosaur." There's a distinction between the two in every day discussions, pop-culture, in the modern dictionary, etc. And to claim otherwise is really pedantic. If Planet Zoo were to get a "dinosaur" DLC it wouldn't be a bunch of modern day birds because that would confuse people.

That said, most people at this point know that birds are descended from dinosaurs so that's something that I do raise pretty frequently (and I raise in fascination every time i see certain movements in birds).

Culturally, the term "Dinosaur" has filled the catch all for almost everything Extinct, with a focus on big, scaled beasts. Prehistoric and Megafauna have been pushed occasionally, though each has their own boundaries of course. Dinosaur is the easier term for a child to say, so it's an uphill battle.

Saying "Birds are Dinosaurs" is always going to be seen as a contradiction to the majority of people (at least for a few more decades I think), in many minds being pretty close to "Birds are Dragons".

We should be encouraging a change in thinking. Knowledge evolves.

To me it's no different than discouraging differentiation between humans and animals. There is no difference, we are animals. Drawing that hard line between them is literally what has led to our modern society behaving so callously towards nature (you can actually blame the church for that, but anyway). That is why I think it's important that society as a whole adapts to new understanding of things. Likewise, who better to pick up on the new knowledge quickly than children, who don't yet have a biased frame of reference?

Insisting on there being a tangible difference between dinosaurs and birds is as ludicrous as insisting that scientists have "ruined dinosaurs" by revealing a lot of them probably had feathers. We know better now.

 

[Villanelle]

We should be encouraging a change in thinking. Knowledge evolves.

To me it's no different than discouraging differentiation between humans and animals. There is no difference, we are animals. Drawing that hard line between them is literally what has led to our modern society behaving so callously towards nature (you can actually blame the church for that, but anyway). That is why I think it's important that society as a whole adapts to new understanding of things. Likewise, who better to pick up on the new knowledge quickly than children, who don't yet have a biased frame of reference?

Insisting on there being a tangible difference between dinosaurs and birds is as ludicrous as insisting that scientists have "ruined dinosaurs" by revealing a lot of them probably had feathers. We know better now.

Love this, wholeheartedly agree. The word "anthropomorphism" comes from the Bible and, not wanting to start any kind of spiritual debate, the concept has been a force of supression in the scientific community for centuries. Until recently it was very hard for animal behaviourists and scientists in similar fields to acquire funding for studies, as they would face ridicule and even risk their careers if they were accused of anthropomorphising their subjects. (Source: The Soul of an Octopus by Sy Montgomery, excellent book). The internet is largely to thank for a huge shift in academia, as society's interest in, and shared knowledge of animal behaviour has expanded massively from youtube videos and the like. You can't watch two crows playing in the snow, sliding down cars etc just for the fun of it, without recognising something of ourselves in them. The ceiling has finally been shattered and we are only just now beginning to explore animal sentience in all its depth and glory.

 

[Marvinb]

We should be encouraging a change in thinking. Knowledge evolves.

To me it's no different than discouraging differentiation between humans and animals. There is no difference, we are animals. Drawing that hard line between them is literally what has led to our modern society behaving so callously towards nature (you can actually blame the church for that, but anyway). That is why I think it's important that society as a whole adapts to new understanding of things. Likewise, who better to pick up on the new knowledge quickly than children, who don't yet have a biased frame of reference?

Insisting on there being a tangible difference between dinosaurs and birds is as ludicrous as insisting that scientists have "ruined dinosaurs" by revealing a lot of them probably had feathers. We know better now.

99,9% of people couldnt even say what the defining feature of birds is

 

[jcp011c]

99,9% of people couldnt even say what the defining feature of birds is

in Planet Zoo it is an animal that has a beak, feathers, wings and is incapable of flight (either true to life or just true to game).

 

[Doran]

in Planet Zoo it is an animal that has a beak, feathers, wings and is incapable of flight (either true to life or just true to game).

Oviraptor?

 

[NZFanatic]

99,9% of people couldnt even say what the defining feature of birds is

So we should just let people be ignorant and relish in stupidity?

 

[Milurian]

We should be encouraging a change in thinking. Knowledge evolves.

To me it's no different than discouraging differentiation between humans and animals. There is no difference, we are animals. Drawing that hard line between them is literally what has led to our modern society behaving so callously towards nature (you can actually blame the church for that, but anyway). That is why I think it's important that society as a whole adapts to new understanding of things. Likewise, who better to pick up on the new knowledge quickly than children, who don't yet have a biased frame of reference?

Insisting on there being a tangible difference between dinosaurs and birds is as ludicrous as insisting that scientists have "ruined dinosaurs" by revealing a lot of them probably had feathers. We know better now.

The use of paraphyletic groups such as birds always has and always will be important to society. Im going to compare this idea to another common argument that might help explain why have the distinction between birds and dinosaurs is important. A tomato is considered a fruit by science based on its function within the plant this is important when discussing the care for and function of a tomato plant. However the culinary world and most of society does not immediately consider a tomato a fruit they consider it a vegetable but to them it serves a different purpose when cooking both are correct given the context.

Apply this to birds and you get a scenario that scientifically birds are yes a branch of dinosaurs they do not contain all dinosaurs but they are dinosaurs. however it is still culturally important to make the distinction same as how we even have the word dinosaur in the first place to sperate them culturally from reptiles they serve a different purpose in society so should have a different name.

It is also important to also consider which name has a stronger and lengthier cultural connection birds have had a much longer and complicated history than dinosaurs which are a relatively recent discovery saying we should rename a group of animals that have been imbedded in almost all human cultures to that of their ancestors completely ignores the meaning behind what a bird culturally is.

I agree to the education of people on what dinosaurs actually looked liked how they functioned and their relationship to modern birds is important but if anything dinosaurs should be renamed to birds not the other way round. Not every distinction has to be tangible and concrete some are cultural and serve a purpose within society.

I also fully agree on the distinction of animals and humans being problematic and harmful and it needing to change but the complete removeable of a concept so engrained into society wont happen but im hopeful the connotations will.

Love this, wholeheartedly agree. The word "anthropomorphism" comes from the Bible and, not wanting to start any kind of spiritual debate, the concept has been a force of supression in the scientific community for centuries. Until recently it was very hard for animal behaviourists and scientists in similar fields to acquire funding for studies, as they would face ridicule and even risk their careers if they were accused of anthropomorphising their subjects. (Source: The Soul of an Octopus by Sy Montgomery, excellent book). The internet is largely to thank for a huge shift in academia, as society's interest in, and shared knowledge of animal behaviour has expanded massively from youtube videos and the like. You can't watch two crows playing in the snow, sliding down cars etc just for the fun of it, without recognising something of ourselves in them. The ceiling has finally been shattered and we are only just now beginning to explore animal sentience in all its depth and glory.

I recently watched a speculative evolution video that was covering the concept of sapience and yeah this human centric view point has destroyed our understanding of what it even means to be sapient every definition has multiple animals that support it from actively changing the environment, agriculture, ability to make use and store tools, some animals are even better at typically human tasks such as chimps having a better working memory than us. The conclusion of that video was that plenty of animals are capable of sapience and human like behaviour but only one has evolved to depend exclusively on it that being us and that it isnt necessarily a good thing.

 

[Orkan]

How did a DLC speculation thread turn into a sentience debate?

 

[synthetase]

How did a DLC speculation thread turn into a sentience debate?

Without reading the debate I am going to add my $0.02.
Animals feel love, joy etc... They are sentient in that way. A good country/civilization treats their animals (from beloved dogs to livestock to even rodent pests) with respect. I would say societies need to be nicer to all animals overall. For livestock and rodents they need to be more humane in how they kill them. For pets they could try to be more compassionate. I am against dogs being locked in crates personally. I am also against breeding mutts as "designer dogs" UNLESS its for a specific purpose such as service dogs, hunting dogs, police dogs etc... IF people want a mix they should adopt an unwanted one at the shelter. There are even pups available!
All that said there IS a bit of difference between humans and animals. I don't know exactly, but I would say humans experience beauty which I don't see in animals. Another is rationality and decision making in advance. The differences are what the Bible describes as Made in the Image of God.
This is mostly just my opinion so if you disagree I understand and you could even reply. Just be nice. Haha.

 

[RightWhale]

I am against dogs being locked in crates personally. I am also against breeding mutts as "designer dogs" UNLESS its for a specific purpose such as service dogs, hunting dogs, police dogs etc... IF people want a mix they should adopt an unwanted one at the shelter. There are even pups available!

Getting into the Vet industry has completey put me off of dog breeds, every single one I can’t help but see as a future walking medical bill. Especially these designer breeds, you should see some 9f the new “bullies” they look like in inbred toads. Every breed has bottlenecked genetics, so due to that you will get breed standard health issues. The issue is some breeders will also have health issues to a specific genetic line.

Generally speaking I don’t think dog breeds will get healthier, and I really think it’s possible the brachycephalic breeds may not last even a next couple decades.

 

[synthetase]

Getting into the Vet industry has completey put me off of dog breeds, every single one I can’t help but see as a future walking medical bill. Especially these designer breeds, you should see some 9f the new “bullies” they look like in inbred toads. Every breed has bottlenecked genetics, so due to that you will get breed standard health issues. The issue is some breeders will also have health issues to a specific genetic line.

Generally speaking I don’t think dog breeds will get healthier, and I really think it’s possible the brachycephalic breeds may not last even a next couple decades.

I have heard of genetic problems in designer breeds! Which is crazy because one of the only reasons I could think in favor of designer breeds is supposedly more genetic health/diversity. But they are not healthier. Brachycephalic if its extreme enough makes me depressed. Pugs deserve a loving home too, but I agree with the idea that they should try to breed them with a bit longer snouts in the future... German shepherds look like they have hip problems... One of my Nonnie's most beloved dogs was named Z. Nonnie and Z are both in Heaven now I hope. But Z was a beautiful purebred Doberman. The problem with being purebred Doberman was she had a genetic problem that caused her to suffer at the end of her life... So, I agree there are some problems with purebred dogs too. I wish people would be more mindful of how they breed dogs. Try to genetic test for example. Maybe rewrite the more extreme standards for breeds such as Pugs to be less extreme.

 

[Villanelle]

I recently watched a speculative evolution video that was covering the concept of sapience and yeah this human centric view point has destroyed our understanding of what it even means to be sapient every definition has multiple animals that support it from actively changing the environment, agriculture, ability to make use and store tools, some animals are even better at typically human tasks such as chimps having a better working memory than us. The conclusion of that video was that plenty of animals are capable of sapience and human like behaviour but only one has evolved to depend exclusively on it that being us and that it isnt necessarily a good thing.

There are two words here I think you might be conflating. 'Sentience' (cognition) and 'sapiens' (as in homo sapiens). Have you read the book Sapiens? The distinction the author makes between humans and other animals is that if you put 10 humans on a tiny tropical island, eventually they would probably run out of resources and die off. If you put 10 chimps there, they would probably be able to form a sustainable colony and survive. But put 400 chimps there and they would kill each other, fighting for territory and resources. Put 400 humans there and they could form a society, build a civilisation and figure out a way off the island. However what the author is describing is eusocialism, and this can be found in colony insects such as ants and bees, in some crustaceans and mammals and even in some plants!

All that said there IS a bit of difference between humans and animals. I don't know exactly, but I would say humans experience beauty which I don't see in animals.

There are examples of animals showing an appreciation for aesthetics. Bower birds, pufferfish that make beautiful patterns in the sand to attract a mate are the most famous. Here's a very neutral, cautiously-written article on the subject: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220527-the-animals-with-an-artistic-eye

Another is rationality and decision making in advance.

This has been shown to exist in most higher-intelligence species such as crows, octopus, dolphins, elephants, apes etc. Plans and rationality are needed to figure out how to approach a new puzzle, maze, or real-world challenge to navigate terrain, overcome obstacles and acquire food and resources. Dolphins have been found to communicate their plans to each other: https://www.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/nvsn5.sci.bio.dolphin/dolphins-plan-ahead/

Edit to add: the orca pods that are targeting the rudders of ships because they have suffered injuries and losses in their colony from shipping injuries is another prime example. Strategic planning, orchestrated action, supervision and leadership are all noted in the way they carry out these non-violent attacks.

Any distinction made between humans and other animals has been found to fall down at numerous examples.

What's very exciting to me at the moment is what we might learn from decoding sperm whale language. Sperm whales' brains are six times larger than ours, but more importantly, their pre-frontal cortex is much bigger. This is the part of the brain that governs emotional intelligence, rationality and language. Sperm whale society is huge and complex, and they may have a language that is even more highly developed than our own. Project CETI's mission is to learn what sperm whales are saying. Just recently there has been a breakthrough, discovering the phonetic building blocks of their language. It's such an exciting area of science, AI is being used to decode it and it is possible that in our lifetimes we might actually be able to understand at least a rudimentary amount of another animal's language. Here are some links:
The project
Smithsonian magazine May 8 2024
Ted Talk

 

[RightWhale]

I have heard of genetic problems in designer breeds! Which is crazy because one of the only reasons I could think in favor of designer breeds is supposedly more genetic health/diversity. But they are not healthier. Brachycephalic if it’s extreme enough makes me depressed. Pugs deserve a loving home too, but I agree with the idea that they should try to breed them with a bit longer snouts in the future... German shepherds look like they have hip problems... One of my Nonnie's most beloved dogs was named Z. Nonnie and Z are both in Heaven now I hope. But Z was a beautiful purebred Doberman. The problem with being purebred Doberman was she had a genetic problem that caused her to suffer at the end of her life... So, I agree there are some problems with purebred dogs too. I wish people would be more mindful of how they breed dogs. Try to genetic test for example. Maybe rewrite the more extreme standards for breeds such as Pugs to be less extreme.

Here without looking at my notes here is some of the stuff I remember from the dogs you mentioned:

1. German shepherds: hip issues as you mentioned, can also get something called Juvenile Pancreatic Acinar Atrophy. Which means you can have a shepherd under a year old and already it’s pancreas is dying from an immune mediated attack.
2. Brachycephalic: where to even start. Predisposition to certain tumors, brain tumors off the top of my head. Often times they require surgery on both their nares and their soft palates to breath better. Not to mention many have hips so short they require c-sections to have puppies.
3. Dobermans: I believe it’s called Von Willibrands disease. Basically Dobermans can be predisposed to not having certain clotting factors, so it’s easier for them to bleed out.

Fun stuff. I think I’m just gonna adopt mutts when I’m ready for a dog.

 

[Villanelle]

Here without looking at my notes here is some of the stuff I remember from the dogs you mentioned:

1. German shepherds: hip issues as you mentioned, can also get something called Juvenile Pancreatic Acinar Atrophy. Which means you can have a shepherd under a year old and already it’s pancreas is dying from an immune mediated attack.
2. Brachycephalic: where to even start. Predisposition to certain tumors, brain tumors off the top of my head. Often times they require surgery on both their nares and their soft palates to breath better. Not to mention many have hips so short they require c-sections to have puppies.
3. Dobermans: I believe it’s called Von Willibrands disease. Basically Dobermans can be predisposed to not having certain clotting factors, so it’s easier for them to bleed out.

Fun stuff. I think I’m just gonna adopt mutts when I’m ready for a dog.

My friends who have had dachshunds have had such terrible experiences with their backs. Their spines sag way before they are old and even after lots of expensive surgery, they have had to be put out of their misery. This breed is beautiful but should be stopped, they're not meant to exist. Same with all the breeds with short snouts and respiratory illnesses. We are so cruel to create these unnatural breeds for our own delight that have short, painful lives.

 

[jcp011c]

Thinking about the Frontier verbiage that we're going to be really happy with whatever is coming...that could very well just be hype since hype sells. But it also could have been referring to the next DLC rather than the Barnyard one. Granted, a lot of people wanted domestic/petting zoo type animals, but at the same time given how strongly the community has reacted to having so many ungulates in 2023 and balancing that against 6/7 ungulates in Barnyard, I'd think that would not lead to being excited about it.

I'm not saying that's it's going to be anything like flying birds of marine animals - those are not happening at this point, I'm 99.999% sure (though Frontier is more than welcome to prove me wrong!), I'm just saying it feels like the next pack is really going to have a "wow" factor, regardless of it's the final pack or not.

 

[RightWhale]

Thinking about the Frontier verbiage that we're going to be really happy with whatever is coming...that could very well just be hype since hype sells. But it also could have been referring to the next DLC rather than the Barnyard one. Granted, a lot of people wanted domestic/petting zoo type animals, but at the same time given how strongly the community has reacted to having so many ungulates in 2023 and balancing that against 6/7 ungulates in Barnyard, I'd think that would not lead to being excited about it.

I'm not saying that's it's going to be anything like flying birds of marine animals - those are not happening at this point, I'm 99.999% sure (though Frontier is more than welcome to prove me wrong!), I'm just saying it feels like the next pack is really going to have a "wow" factor, regardless of it's the final pack or not.

I think what makes me lean to the next pack being exciting is the fact they don’t even have a specific time referred to the next pack. They just said sometime this year. To be honest even with the weird breed choices I’m enjoying the barnyard pack, so it makes me kind of excited to see what the next pack will be.

 

[Marvinb]

Idk the fact that the next ones is an animal pack once again really has me worried, since the last 3 really has made me loose faith in frontiers ability to do good animal packs.
Plus i just generally prefer scenery packs, so having to go like a full year without one, and very well never get one again REALLY stinks for me.

 

[synthetase]

Idk the fact that the next ones is an animal pack once again really has me worried, since the last 3 really has made me loose faith in frontiers ability to do good animal packs.
Plus i just generally prefer scenery packs, so having to go like a full year without one, and very well never get one again REALLY stinks for me.

Even I feel bad for the builders... I'm hoping this next pack and/or the last one could have a full scenery set somehow... Which themes do you want?
I'd like a generic/modern theme because it seems like no matter what you build they all seem heavily stylized. The only sort of neutral theme to me is Classic actually, with the brick.
I'd also like, flexicolor reward statues. Please? More flexicolor in general... Maybe much smaller generic shape pieces too?

 

[RightWhale]

Idk the fact that the next ones is an animal pack once again really has me worried, since the last 3 really has made me loose faith in frontiers ability to do good animal packs.
Plus i just generally prefer scenery packs, so having to go like a full year without one, and very well never get one again REALLY stinks for me.

I mean the last 3 animal packs weren’t so bad! They were:

1. 1 bird, and 6 ungulates
2. 1 bird, 1 tortoise, 1 mustelid, 1 bear, and 4 ungulates
3. 1 rodent, 1 cat, 1 snake, and 5 ungulates

It’s not like we haven’t got a monkey in over 1,000 days, and got more ungulates in one year than the entire clade of aves represented in the game!

I’ll agree, I think this next pack could fix a lot, but I understand the hesitation. It’s something like we could finally get a duck and a monkey, then the rest of the pack is cat, dog, and even more ungulates.

It makes me feel bad. Ungulates are such a beautiful group of mammals, I do feel bad they seem to get a bad rap on this forum. I’ll also say though, they have had plenty of time to build a roster up and I hope frontier actually uses the next pack to diversify the other areas of the roster. The barnyard pack is a bit unfair to use in the “frontier loves ungulates too much argument” but at the same time we could have got a rabbit and/or another bird.

I’ll be hopeful, but I totally get why you and others are still very hesitant.

 

[Marvinb]

Even I feel bad for the builders... I'm hoping this next pack and/or the last one could have a full scenery set somehow... Which themes do you want?
I'd like a generic/modern theme because it seems like no matter what you build they all seem heavily stylized. The only sort of neutral theme to me is Classic actually, with the brick.
I'd also like, flexicolor reward statues. Please? More flexicolor in general... Maybe much smaller generic shape pieces too?

Idk no specific wishes for any themes really, i just want new stuff to build with lol .
Generic modern stuff would be cool, but id be cool with everything. Even for the very theme packs like twilight and oceania you always have alot of generally usefull and versatile pieces.