No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

As mentioned before we believed that would be possible at the time. The game has changed considerably in scope since the kickstarter, the game we are making is much bigger and better than what we pitched back then. Most of the changes stemming from the excellent feedback we received. Many of features require an online component and that's what has ultimately prompted the decision. Repeating myself again -) ) but the decision had to be made and we made it.

Michael

So far so good, fine, I'll repeat the big bolded question for you, and this time, in a font you can't miss, comic sans... yes, I went there.

Why then, when you remove this feature which is such an emotive matter and indeed one that's a matter of principle and in some cases practicality, do you hide behind legal loopholes to blanket deny refunds to all but the most narrow of cases?

This is the big one, an answer if you please?

 

[mbpoblet]

Well I spent a bit of time this morning looking through some packet sniffing data on ED and reflected of ways to perhaps help Frontier Developments solve their problems or is necessary produce a 3rd party community developed offline server. I was hoping to discuss just that in a constructive and positive manner with the community here so i created a thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=61064 which was promptly closed by a mod. I've requested that he reopen the thread but having not heard anything yet and having spend quite a bit of time on this today I thought I would "try" and bring the discussion here. Thoughts?

Thanks for doing the good work.

Shame they closed your thread.

Sadly, I think it's pretty clear that Frontier won't collaborate in any way in the development of third party servers.

The only way forward is probably through reverse engineering.

 

[Adept]

Oh yes, don't get me wrong as I understand that. The trouble I'm having is that it all seems so......temporary? The pure love of the original Elite games is the only thing keeping me going at this point, but at least I can play them still...This is my ONLY concern now....and sorry if this has already been mentioned a Zillion times already! I fully understand most of the reasons regarding the 'dynamic' galaxy aspect...I really do.
If ANYONE has group full of friendly online players, please invite me. I'm a 40 something die-hard Elite fan, who is a little upset by recent events, but willing to move with the times if needs must?

I recommend the PvE group of Mobius myself.

 

[ThatFuzzyTiger]

And that is being looked into - however we have to be careful that our refunds policy is consistent.

Michael

In my case you've around 10 days. Then I have no option but to initiate chargeback proceedures and to raise disputes with paypal for the ship skins once my card processor confirms that the chargeback has been authorised (they've already agreed it in principle, so it's on FDEV right now to make a goodwill gesture). I can wait

 

[Michael Brookes]

So far so good, fine, I'll repeat the big bolded question for you, and this time, in a font you can't miss, comic sans... yes, I went there.

Why then, when you remove this feature which is such an emotive matter and indeed one that's a matter of principle and in some cases practicality, do you hide behind legal loopholes to blanket deny refunds to all but the most narrow of cases?

This is the big one, an answer if you please?

Those that are eligable under our current rules have been processed and we're looking into other cases.

Michael

 

[Greyshadow]

Sad to see players leave this game, because of internet problems. I've been gaming for 30+ years, seen much advancement in quality. the last series of space sims i've played is the X series from egosoft, i moved to ED because of the quality and focus of the game and feel that games like Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen are the future. the X games are great single player games but they are missing what elite and star citizen can offer. Sadly though, i think they both will only have that edge with internet based server connection, mostly due to the market system and the fact you can switch to multplayer at anytime.

I wish all well who are unable to stay due to this issue. hopefully things change and you come back at a later time cheers fen

Its not internet Problems for everyone look here is an example. I log into Final Fantasy 14 a real MMO. Play for 5 hours. not one disconnect, one hiccup or anything. Any other MMO same issue no issues. I log into Elite. Play solo for 30 minutes. Get disconnected randomly for no issue. Try to grab a mission. Failed to acknowledge mission from server. Buy a fitting an transaction fails. Sure its Beta but there has been no reassurance anywhere to indicate this will be fixed. I mean there have even been any patches for awhile and I am still having these issues. And when 3.9 comes out how many more issues will be introduced.

Log into Open Play and have a even wider range of problems after 1 hour or so. They are marketing Elite as an online Game when online is so broken it makes my head hurt. And you know what I do not want to spend several hours earning money just to lose it all from fines because i got disconnected from the server in the middle of a mission that failed as a result.

You cannot market a game as online if close to half you player base is having various issues with the online aspect and lets be honest there are a lot of people having issues. There are still enough issues with solo mode to make the game not enjoyable mainly losing out on mission because of disconnects.

 

[Seonid]

The only way forward is probably through reverse engineering.

The back-end environment? Good luck with that.

 

[Shoklar]

Its not internet Problems for everyone look here is an example. I log into Final Fantasy 14 a real MMO. Play for 5 hours. not one disconnect, one hiccup or anything. Any other MMO same issue no issues. I log into Elite. Play solo for 30 minutes. Get disconnected randomly for no issue. Try to grab a mission. Failed to acknowledge mission from server. Buy a fitting an transaction fails. Sure its Beta but there has been no reassurance anywhere to indicate this will be fixed. I mean there have even been any patches for awhile and I am still having these issues. And when 3.9 comes out how many more issues will be introduced.

Log into Open Play and have a even wider range of problems after 1 hour or so. They are marketing Elite as an online Game when online is so broken it makes my head hurt. And you know what I do not want to spend several hours earning money just to lose it all from fines because i got disconnected from the server in the middle of a mission that failed as a result.

You cannot market a game as online if close to half you player base is having various issues with the online aspect and lets be honest there are a lot of people having issues. There are still enough issues with solo mode to make the game not enjoyable mainly losing out on mission because of disconnects.

Was that Final Fantasy beta? This is still officially beta, even though today will be the last one. There is something very wrong with you all comparing a beta to a finished polished game...

Shok.

 

[trusteft]

I wonder what the real reason is behind the kick in the nuts to the offline gamers. I definitely don't buy that you gave the good fight, you really really really tried to have an offline mode, but the evil gods of programming took the possibility away.
Perhaps something close to the DLC situation. Perhaps an offline version is perceived as an obstacle to that, especially for ships camo/looks and even ships in general. If people can download free mods, why pay for DLC. (in some minds at least)
Or does it have to do with complex mathematical formulas which a mare quad core cpu can't do so you have to rely on the 150000 machines/supercomputer "cloud"/server which will do them instead? You know, for the sake of game experience...

No no, I get it, it's the complex economic system and missions which obviously couldn't be done in a modern PC. After all, what does a modern PC is compared to an 80's 16bit computer or a 90's 486i ! I mean, what's next, landing on planets? That's impossible!

If only there was any game in history which was complicated yet didn't require servers to run a single player game!
I can think of a couple which start with an E, there are a couple that start with an X, and of course a couple more recent games E.M etc.

For shame.

 

[Warbler]

As mentioned before we believed that would be possible at the time. The game has changed considerably in scope since the kickstarter, the game we are making is much bigger and better than what we pitched back then. Most of the changes stemming from the excellent feedback we received. Many of features require an online component and that's what has ultimately prompted the decision. Repeating myself again -) ) but the decision had to be made and we made it.

Michael

I think the writing is on the wall now. It seems to me that offline has been dropped because it doesn't suit FD's revised vision of the game.

 

[Wolframium]

Dear Mr. Brookes,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. There is one thing many of us have been wondering: why was the bad news divulged like that, with nonchalance, at the end of a newsletter entry without even being dignified with its own title or paragraph, as if it were a minor change of little importance? Some of the people who have been complaining have suggested that either you had vastly underestimated the importance this change would have for many people, or that you were deliberately trying to draw as little attention to it as possible, hoping that few people would notice. I have no reason to doubt your honest intentions, so right now I am going with the first option: did you really not see this coming? Had you really no idea how much offline mode meant to a lot of us? Or is there another reason that I have not considered?

I hope you're still online and answering questions.

Thanks.


edit: I apologize in case this question has already been answered. I've been reading so much about the subject in the past few days, it's hard to keep track.

 

[Saetan]

Meanwhile I guess, Frontier is to afraid of having an odd and empty non-economic online-universe without enough player influences, so they are afraid of any non online player so they felt they need to quit offline mode and force anybody to play online. Just because they sucked in creating an simulated economy for their universe.

Of course they can't refund the games, because they need to pay their own bills and maybe even they hope to get some more players into online then, because if they have already paid for, why they shouldn't play at least online then?

 

[Michael Brookes]

I wonder what the real reason is behind the kick in the nuts to the offline gamers. I definitely don't buy that you gave the good fight, you really really really tried to have an offline mode, but the evil gods of programming took the possibility away.
Perhaps something close to the DLC situation. Perhaps an offline version is perceived as an obstacle to that, especially for ships camo/looks and even ships in general. If people can download free mods, why pay for DLC. (in some minds at least)
Or does it have to do with complex mathematical formulas which a mare quad core cpu can't do so you have to rely on the 150000 machines/supercomputer "cloud"/server which will do them instead? You know, for the sake of game experience...

No no, I get it, it's the complex economic system and missions which obviously couldn't be done in a modern PC. After all, what does a modern PC is compared to an 80's 16bit computer or a 90's 486i ! I mean, what's next, landing on planets? That's impossible!

If only there was any game in history which was complicated yet didn't require servers to run a single player game!
I can think of a couple which start with an E, there are a couple that start with an X, and of course a couple more recent games E.M etc.

For shame.

There is no sinister conspiracy theory in operation.

Michael

 

[KillTaker]

That's nice Michael.

Where was this screen shot taken from? Is there a link?

 

[CmdrPSB]

There is no sinister conspiracy theory in operation.

Michael

That's what you'd say if there WAS one! Aha! Caught you!

 

[foxpur]

, but is instead looked at from the perspective of the "average consumer", who would most definitely not know the difference, and would see it as a pre-order with beta access tossed in.

*I* would see it that way myself actually. But I have seen small claims say you bought into a changed contract (this was in relation to the Optimus Keyboard)

 

[phlOgistOn]

Where was this screen shot taken from? Is there a link?

I'd hazard a guess at the dutch version of reddit

edit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/15od2s/i_am_david_braben_cocreator_of_elite_creator_of/

 

[SalsaDMA]

We've always been clear that the game is first and foremost a multiplayer game. Multiplayer and the evolving galaxy were the two core pillars that set this as something new and special for the Elite series. Without those there wouldn't have been a new game at all. Back in the kickstarter we believed that we could support offline play as well, but as development progressed the scope expanded considerably and more of the game had to held online for it to work as intended. We've constantly examined how we could hive off some of that work in a separate offline mode but that has proven not be the case.

Michael

Obviously you haven't been "clear" since you guys specifically stated that offline would be part of the product.

It doesn't matter what you think is the primary or secondary. Bottomline is that you stated it would be part of the product, and as thus you SHOULD HAVE DESIGNED THE PRODUCT to encompass this.

Instead the vibe you are giving us is that you totally ignored offline during the prelimanary and latter design, with some weak notion that you couold probably hack out something afterwards, and then when you started actually looking at the code just diecided to ditch it because you realized the corner you had designed yourself into would cost money to get out of.

YOUR choice and incompetence in design shouldn't leave you free of responsibilities towards the promises you made about what the product would be.

By your claims, you could just as easily have made a platformer instead ala mario bros, and claimed that "stuff change, live with it" like you are trying to do now.

It's unethical at best and cause for no amount of love from the people you wrong by this.

 

[mbpoblet]

There is no sinister conspiracy theory in operation.

Michael

Well, of course you'd say that...

Dammit, ninja'd:

That's what you'd say if there WAS one! Aha! Caught you!

 

[Ecks Theory]

Actuallly you keep saying how the off-line crowd has been treated shockingly poorly by those who do not share their outrage.

I don't think it's possible for me to make you see how the behavior of some of the off-line crowd is far beyond acceptable behavior to many of us, and how we can't condone the overblown accusations and actions designed to hurt the game and the company behind it.

You feel like myself and others are behaving poorly. I can assure you that many of us find your conduct absolutely shocking and entirely disproportional. If you feel like you are the white-hat in the scenario, at best that white is very, very dirty and tarnished.

IMnot a white hat by any stretch of the imagination, and be rest assured I am in fact holding back quite a far bit. What youll find with me if you knew me is that I react to how Im treated. So if you find me offensive, you may consider it a falut of the community here.

I want my money back as I paid for something im not getting. IS there something wrong with that? I dont want and did not pay for what the game is now. IS that hard to understand? Should I be punished because I dont want to support something I have no interest in? If the shoe was on the other foot and its was on line mode tht had been striped out would you be happy to pay for an offline game that you didnt want? More importantly would you expect to be abused simply because you didnt want to pay for something that was advertised to you as something different?

Im a reasonable person, and I think its perfectly reasonable to ask for a refund on a product that doesnt meet the description of what I purchased. Ive played around maybe an hour of the beta. I didnt care for the online nature of the game, so I havent touched it since. Should I be punished for that? If I get my refund, what difference does it make to you? YOu got the game you wanted. I didnt. Cant we just agree that I was sold something that for whatever reason has changed, and that because of that I am no longer interested? Should I be forced to pay for something I was informed was not going to include something that it very clearly stated was going to be included when I bought it? Does this make me a thief? A spoiled brat? or any of the other name bounding about that I wont mention.

Im disappointment that offline has been removed, but I accept the reason for it. However I am furious that they then think they can keep my money after changing what the game was to include. Can you understand that I dont want to pay for something Ill never use? Cant you empathise that I shouldnt be forced to simply because I played an hour of a beta that was included in a preorder?