You're making the assumption that the people who want guilds are in any way a majority.
DEVS: Why no social features like chat channels, guilds / corps and parties?
- Thread starter Dejay
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You're making the assumption that the people who want guilds are in any way a majority.
I love Elite, but I have been saying this since Alpha 3. Docking (with the small slot and no traffic priority) is clearly aimed at the single player experience. There's gonna be a lot of griefing and aggro around those docking hatches come release...
This was something I was really realizing last night. There seems to be a huge disconnect between what the Elite veterans want - Lone trader, single player focus, very limited interaction only in local space...versus what Frontier are actually marketing, namely an "Epic Multiplayer Experience".
At some point they have to pick a message and stick with it.
If this is an Epic Multiplayer Experience then it needs epic multiplayer communication and organization tools.
If this is a more intimate, single player focused game with multiplayer elements, then they need to look at how multiplayer in Dark Souls was marketed because this is essentially the same idea except with spaceships.
I think in regards to fighting it is already very very good. Just not in playing cooperative.
So it is basically pirate multiplayer. But not trader/explorer/bounty hunter/miner multiplayer.
Not sure what's wrong with that assumption. Or is it that it goes against the assumption others are making that "no one wants guilds"?
Oh I didn't see it, sorry. Then I think there is yet another thread: Ten Ton Hammer- ED needs social tools and yours: The Need for Social Tools - TenTonHammer article
It's possible the mods will merge any threads mentioning magazine articles into the "Elite in the media" thread and that will basically mute the issues raised.
Online games NEED global chats.
Indeed, they're filled with garbage most of the time, but that's not the reason they're needed. That garbage breathes life into the game, by making you aware that people are there, and contrary to what people think, they aren't ENTIRELY useless. There are still meaningful interactions there, people are exchanging information, asking questions, asking for help, making arrangements, deciding to meet each other, and they at the very least pop in to say "hi!". It's a key element to the creation of a cohesive community, and actually a prime aspect of fighting against griefing: if people care for each other, they won't be so tempted to annoy each other, but they will be more temped to help others.
Because online games NEED global chats, if there isn't one, players will create one. I'm myself already seeing how well I can integrate a variety of chat overlays to the game, and if the game doesn't have one, then I'll pick a nice IRC channel, spread it among the community, and we'll make it our home.
What's the difference? Well, if the global chat is a third party alternative, it splits the community in two: those that are on the global chat, and those that aren't; worse, there could be several alternatives. So the game better have one, and those that don't like it will just hide it.
The biggest problem I see with this is that we're talking about a space sim. There's hardly any place that's safe, where you can just sit back and relax, and leave your stick to grab your keyboard. That's a problem we could be working on. I'm considering text-to-speech software for that, but I'm not sure it'll be good enough.
Indeed, they're filled with garbage most of the time, but that's not the reason they're needed. That garbage breathes life into the game, by making you aware that people are there, and contrary to what people think, they aren't ENTIRELY useless. There are still meaningful interactions there, people are exchanging information, asking questions, asking for help, making arrangements, deciding to meet each other, and they at the very least pop in to say "hi!". It's a key element to the creation of a cohesive community, and actually a prime aspect of fighting against griefing: if people care for each other, they won't be so tempted to annoy each other, but they will be more temped to help others.
Because online games NEED global chats, if there isn't one, players will create one. I'm myself already seeing how well I can integrate a variety of chat overlays to the game, and if the game doesn't have one, then I'll pick a nice IRC channel, spread it among the community, and we'll make it our home.
What's the difference? Well, if the global chat is a third party alternative, it splits the community in two: those that are on the global chat, and those that aren't; worse, there could be several alternatives. So the game better have one, and those that don't like it will just hide it.
The biggest problem I see with this is that we're talking about a space sim. There's hardly any place that's safe, where you can just sit back and relax, and leave your stick to grab your keyboard. That's a problem we could be working on. I'm considering text-to-speech software for that, but I'm not sure it'll be good enough.
@ Dejay
Look, we are not going to agree, we can agree to disagree but don't call me a troll - end of - I am discussing this with you in a civil manner - a differing opinion doe snot make me a troll. My point was neither rude nor offensive, if you read it that way I apologise but frankly I'm struggling to see how you could read some ones simple opinion that way.
I am unwilling to continue this if your reply to everything is 'fallacy' and 'no merit' - why is it that I can say this is my point of view and I see how yours differers and in reply I get 'troll' 'fallacy' and 'no merit' comments? Your view differs to mine but it has merit, your view differs to mine but is not a fallacy, your view differs to mine yet I do not consider you a troll.
As for the why this feature is good/bad - I have laid out my position as to why I think certain social aspects are bad in THIS game but some may work/be acceptable, (to me). I implied but did not mean x, y or z feature is bad because WoW has it, I stated that it does not fit or feel right here, again, subjective and my opinion.
How could it impede the ability?, example, you are on a station, station chat, (probably in a hub of sorts, Sol system for example), is rolling by, player LFG for this, that and the other, 'yous are a nub' comments - the whole cahoona, are you really implying that pm'ing commanders 1 by 1 is not a) more time consuming and b) more cumbersome than using said station chat? - I hope not, because if you accept those points then it becomes the go to feature for these things and you need it on to get said things done, thus, want it or not you must use it. (and why is it I have to explain and guarantee things yet you are exempt?)
'David Braben disagrees with you' - absolute tripe, David wants limited social interaction and social features in this game, I am comfortable with what has been spoken of in the DDF/A, the newsletters and the dev diaries, if he disagrees with me and not you then why does this thread exist and why do you want more?
Look, we are not going to agree, we can agree to disagree but don't call me a troll - end of - I am discussing this with you in a civil manner - a differing opinion doe snot make me a troll. My point was neither rude nor offensive, if you read it that way I apologise but frankly I'm struggling to see how you could read some ones simple opinion that way.
I am unwilling to continue this if your reply to everything is 'fallacy' and 'no merit' - why is it that I can say this is my point of view and I see how yours differers and in reply I get 'troll' 'fallacy' and 'no merit' comments? Your view differs to mine but it has merit, your view differs to mine but is not a fallacy, your view differs to mine yet I do not consider you a troll.
As for the why this feature is good/bad - I have laid out my position as to why I think certain social aspects are bad in THIS game but some may work/be acceptable, (to me). I implied but did not mean x, y or z feature is bad because WoW has it, I stated that it does not fit or feel right here, again, subjective and my opinion.
How could it impede the ability?, example, you are on a station, station chat, (probably in a hub of sorts, Sol system for example), is rolling by, player LFG for this, that and the other, 'yous are a nub' comments - the whole cahoona, are you really implying that pm'ing commanders 1 by 1 is not a) more time consuming and b) more cumbersome than using said station chat? - I hope not, because if you accept those points then it becomes the go to feature for these things and you need it on to get said things done, thus, want it or not you must use it. (and why is it I have to explain and guarantee things yet you are exempt?)
'David Braben disagrees with you' - absolute tripe, David wants limited social interaction and social features in this game, I am comfortable with what has been spoken of in the DDF/A, the newsletters and the dev diaries, if he disagrees with me and not you then why does this thread exist and why do you want more?
No I just contradicted his statement "Guilds are not wanted" which is factually wrong because I want guilds. Even if he had written "the majority doesn't want guilds" would be a logical fallacy because that is an appeal to authority. Just because X says so doesn't make it automatically correct. You have to argue why guilds are not wanted / should not be included.
SO MUCH THIS.
The signal to noise ratio in many online games is indeed terrible, but it lets players know that other people are there and without it, where do they turn for help or to meet new people? Telling folks to go outside the game is not tackling the problem - if suddenly everyone goes outside the game to organize and communicate, then there is something wrong with the game as it is not meeting the needs of the playerbase.
One thing I don't agree with in your post is a lack of safe places. Dropping out of supercruise in deep space is relatively safe, as is sitting docked up in a Coriolis station. Plus, if you really wanted to just hang out in space and chat there is no reason you can't shut off your modules and basically sit their until you've cooled down and become basically invisible.
Robert Maynard
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.... with an equally inaccurate statement. Not all players [want / do not want] guilds.
You seem to have missed my question regarding your dislike of "group / shard" game feature - are you referring to private groups?
I always said that the lack of FTL-Communication will really hurt Elite, especially now it has become a full MMO.
Lack of easy-to-use Comms and other social features will not be taken lightly by reviewers as well as future customers. This is a death trap.
( and just to be honest, I nearly never use those social features. I am just aware a game like Elite will simply need them anyway)
Lack of easy-to-use Comms and other social features will not be taken lightly by reviewers as well as future customers. This is a death trap.
( and just to be honest, I nearly never use those social features. I am just aware a game like Elite will simply need them anyway)
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Traditional guilds override the importance of the background simulation, by their static nature. Need to be part of the fabric of the universe, need to conform to the existing political makeup. So a formal group should be linked to an existing faction. And you might want a major one, unless you don't want to be taken out some day. This is a simulation, not a dollhouse, dangit.
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I would like some sort of System Wide chat... maybe not a live chat of sorts, but perhaps some sort of player bulletin system?
Although it is science fiction, I would like to have some sort of realistic approach to certain things.
A global chat, I do not like at all. As mentioned Science Fiction can have some sudo-mechanics involved, but they can be explained... I can't think of any way to have a global chat involved that can be scientifically explained.
As for guilds/clans - DB has already made his stance on this, and said he doesn't like the idea, and I have to agree. You can make a party of people and I think that's all that is required for this game.
Remember the term 'MMO' is used loosely these days. Even games such as League of Legends call themselves an MMO, same with a number of FPS games. They don't have a global chat... just private chat channels
Although it is science fiction, I would like to have some sort of realistic approach to certain things.
A global chat, I do not like at all. As mentioned Science Fiction can have some sudo-mechanics involved, but they can be explained... I can't think of any way to have a global chat involved that can be scientifically explained.
As for guilds/clans - DB has already made his stance on this, and said he doesn't like the idea, and I have to agree. You can make a party of people and I think that's all that is required for this game.
Remember the term 'MMO' is used loosely these days. Even games such as League of Legends call themselves an MMO, same with a number of FPS games. They don't have a global chat... just private chat channels
Will see how group goes with the six comms chat.
See the appeal of station chat and certainly Bulletin board but personal not a system or global chat as this come to mind
With regards to Guilds, why not focus on getting a group (not the game group actual people group) and worth together supporting a faction.
There are more than three factions after all, all the little minor ones in systems.
I wonder if it will be possible to pick faction in an independent system and strengthen it to a point it expands.
If the game eventually provides the tools to group and trade and communicate in a group for a common goal, what is the need for "Guild specific functions"
See the appeal of station chat and certainly Bulletin board but personal not a system or global chat as this come to mind
With regards to Guilds, why not focus on getting a group (not the game group actual people group) and worth together supporting a faction.
There are more than three factions after all, all the little minor ones in systems.
I wonder if it will be possible to pick faction in an independent system and strengthen it to a point it expands.
If the game eventually provides the tools to group and trade and communicate in a group for a common goal, what is the need for "Guild specific functions"
I didn't call you a troll and did not mean to imply that sorry.
But no we can't agree to disagree. I think your arguments are fallacious and I wrote why. Google the names of the fallacies to find explanations and see why I think you made a logical mistake in your argument. I might well be wrong! I'm not saying your point of view or opinion is wrong, just that the argument you provided themselves hold no merit. So prove me wrong
Where I used the word troll is in "that's a troll's argument". Again I attacked how you argue and your arguments not you personally or your opinion. It was in reference to "I want to find players in game because..." and the argument was "You can find players outside of game". It's basically saying "your opinion is invalid". You might consider that "civil" I consider it offensive and rude.
TLDR: I have nothing against you personally or against your opinion, but I do have something again repeating fallacious statements ad nausea that demonstratively make no sense.
You say "it becomes the go to way to do things so you can't avoid it" but I don't see the reason. How are you doing it now and why couldn't you do it the same way in the future? I agree that it changes the nature of the game (to more a social and community type) for those who use the features but what is stopping you in simply disabling all station chat channel and do it the way you want to do it? E.g. whisper to certain players or post in the forum.
I have suggested a feature and I see no reason how it could affect you, so you have to argue why it would affect you negatively. Else you are just shaking your fist at me for no reason.
Again I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, these things can have an influence on the personal gameplay experience. For example when the group finder was introduced in WoW this lead to a loss of community. The game didn't feel the same after it. Group gameplay became mechanical without the chat. So chat does have an influence but I think it's a positive one not a negative one.
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Yes.
But I have to revise that, the group / shard feature is not bad but the name way it seems to be intended to use is bad. It should be described as a "server" that you choose. To use it as a literal grouping feature makes ED worse because you segregate players too much. I might want to play on a PVE group, but if there are 1000 PVE groups out there then I'll never meet new players. That is what I think it's bad about it. People should be joining guilds / fleets in the all group, not separate shards to find their community.
Personally I would like to have some better communications options in-game as a few buddies of mine would like to fly together. I do not want to have big huge guilds/corporations as in other games but I would think there is certainly an option for small groups of players to band together for mutual enjoyment of this game.
If people don't want to interact in-game I am sure there can easily be an option to turn features of via settings.
If people don't want to interact in-game I am sure there can easily be an option to turn features of via settings.
I'd love that it's a cool idea, but that doesn't really contradict the desire for better ingame community and social function in support of that. Whether you have a guild or a faction, you'd need some kind of chat, forum or communication channel. The better these things are implemented, the better the quality of the game. Not implementing them will make for a bad implementation.
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You make a very good point here. If you don't feel as part of the community ("Elite Federation of Pilots") why care about them?
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first: sorry for my bad level of english
Let me say something, for exemple: i m in a station, looking for a job, find a trade job that i can take, but the way to deliver the package is way to dangerous for me alone, or risky at least, and then i want to hire some wingmens.
Actually, how to do that? i need ton find someone, could be difficult in this enormous galaxy, but if im lucky or where there is a lots a players i find somone, target him/her, and send a message, or try by voice...personaly here i will first send a text message, im too shy to speak on the first contact.
if im lucky twice, then he/she give me a go and come to me...wouhou...probably i send 5 or 6 messages before someone answear to it...so it could be slow to find wingmens.
and after that i find the first one, i need to find a second one etc...
It will take a lot of time and it s not so funny.
So, for this type of reasons, i think, yes, ED need something to allow players to chat in the game, not with external site, forum etc...
But like a lot, i dont want a global chat, maybe a buletin board where we can place some text to hire pple etc...and the ability to do a party of more than 6 pple in the same company.
thx point is: we need something to have a first contact with a player or maybe a guilde, without needed to do it extrenaly or by target him etc...
In an other hands, i like how the voice communications work, it feel "real".
Let me say something, for exemple: i m in a station, looking for a job, find a trade job that i can take, but the way to deliver the package is way to dangerous for me alone, or risky at least, and then i want to hire some wingmens.
Actually, how to do that? i need ton find someone, could be difficult in this enormous galaxy, but if im lucky or where there is a lots a players i find somone, target him/her, and send a message, or try by voice...personaly here i will first send a text message, im too shy to speak on the first contact.
if im lucky twice, then he/she give me a go and come to me...wouhou...probably i send 5 or 6 messages before someone answear to it...so it could be slow to find wingmens.
and after that i find the first one, i need to find a second one etc...
It will take a lot of time and it s not so funny.
So, for this type of reasons, i think, yes, ED need something to allow players to chat in the game, not with external site, forum etc...
But like a lot, i dont want a global chat, maybe a buletin board where we can place some text to hire pple etc...and the ability to do a party of more than 6 pple in the same company.
thx point is: we need something to have a first contact with a player or maybe a guilde, without needed to do it extrenaly or by target him etc...
In an other hands, i like how the voice communications work, it feel "real".
I want to meet other players, not live inside such a small isolated group and virtually unpopulated universe. The galaxy would be totally boring - an "empty game" as DB puts it - if you can't meet anybody randomly.
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