Crime and Punishment not fit for purpose - needs overhauling

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
For me it's not exactly a C&P failure here, but a game design failure for mixing PVP and PVE while having outfitting that favors the ganker / pvp-er over the pve builds.

IF all ship (traders, explorers, miners, whatever you name it) would be as strong* as the pvp/ganking ships then it would be much easier to have a working C&P without frustrating a part of your community and without driving parts of the community in pg/solo.

*this would imply a vast change in outfitting, removing a good deal of customizations


Edit: i do agree completely with the opening statement regarding the current state of the C&P, but i'm not sure if the proposed changes will make things better.
Basically, to be efficient, C&P will frustrate gankers, if not it will frustrate the rest of the players that wish a less than moderate pvp interference in their endeavors.
 
Last edited:
And this I think goes over to the PvE design; PvP is a problem in this respect because it breaks all the assumptions of the PvE design, so of course it doesn't "work".

In FE2, for example:
- pretty much every system has (NPC) pirates
- they're pretty rubbish in terms of AI but four of them at once can still give an underdefended ship a bad day and even a single light fighter can eventually kill an unshielded unarmed freighter.
- you can't really avoid "interdiction" from them - if they're in the system, they're almost certainly going to intercept you, and your usable choices when that happens are kill them, be killed, or hyperspace out
- but in FE2 you don't enter a new system conveniently close to the star, and the new system also has pirates, so if you keep hyperspacing out you'll run out of fuel eventually
- you get at best a token bounty for killing them that will barely pay for repairs and ammunition; the "reward" for doing so is that you survive to sell your goods.

So by ED standards, every pirate encounter in FE2 is a "lose-lose" - you'll probably kill your aggressors easily once you've got even a semi-decent ship (and FE2 doesn't have the same "target-class" ships as the Lakon freighters, for example), but if they weren't there, the time saved on trade runs (and extra capacity for cargo over defences and weapons) would massively boost your profit per hour. But in FE2 terms that's the wrong way to think of it: your trade profit is your reward for getting the cargo past the pirates, which is why that game doesn't need separate Trade and Combat ranks: an Elite Combat pilot is an Elite Trader if they want to be.

ED having completely separated "trade" and "combat" as activities ... well, of course a PvPer combining them again doesn't work. PvP attacks still wouldn't be popular if cargo ships were expected to routinely fight back - it's still potentially a much tougher opponent than NPCs and therefore a much greater chance of losing - but at least they wouldn't break the assumptions the rest of the game was built around.
You could have replicated that in ED by making crime pay but it came at a higher cost in credits, time (as in finding places to reside, places to get repairs / items) which would filter down into ship choice (as in, pirates would generally use cheaper ships). So in reality all of this is a BGS + C+P issue- they both feed into each other.

Engineering and credit inflation has destroyed any chance of regular sec forces being anything other than a nuisance- crime is a hobby, its motivation is amusement rather than economic need. If criminals were completely shut off from legit lawful missions (as in, anything above a set notoriety) and were dependent on piracy the easy paths to high end ships would be gone and begin to level things out for NPC sec as well as transports.
 
Ganking would not be a problem (and its really not now, honestly when you care to learn a few tricks) if the game as a whole made more of an effort to push unlawfuls away using other things like the BGS.
The Risk vs Reward of playing in Open is so heavily weighted towards Risk that very many players choose to play in Private or Solo instead for that reason alone, rather than because they want to avoid interacting with 'normal' players. If you consider that having more players in Open is a good thing for the game as a whole, then ganking really is a big problem for the game right now.
And where did they go to sell it? This illustrates the mindset of 'anywhere at any time in anything' and it causing problems. When I was doing granular C+P testing I scouted for systems that had never seen players (at least, not for weeks on end) so I could get firm results. They exist in plentiful numbers on the fringes and with planning decrease the chances of attack. If you want to be in open with such high stakes you can't be causal about it.
Why shouldn't the balance be that gankers are the ones who have to avoid busy systems, rather than the peaceful players. Logically busy systems in the core of the bubble should be the best places in the game for traders, not the worst.
If players are unwilling to take steps to even be able to escape, or weigh up the risk of a particular system no C+P on earth will help them.
Every player will relatively early on start taking steps to be able to escape, or face down, NPC pirates. This will not prepare them for chain interdiction by players in fully-engineered ships that just wants to 'dunk on noobs' and see them go boom. In many cases where they have to go to that particular system, community goal, powerplay or whatever, the correct 'steps' are to high-wake out and then switch to Solo before coming back, then to never use Open again because what's the point.
 
Love this. Cops should do more than spawn in quickly though. They should instantly disable the attacker's FSD and cook them alive with overheat. 🔥🔥🔥

If high-sec cops existed like that they'd need to reduce profitability in high-sec systems as well though. That way if you want maximum profits you'll have to deal with some serious bad guys in Anarchy systems.
Exactly. Basic risk vs reward. Especially since with EDO you can truck within systems. So trading within Sol should be very low risk with low profits, and trading in the fringe worlds of the bubble should be risky but very much worth it...
 
Basically, to be efficient, C&P will frustrate gankers, if not it will frustrate the rest of the players that wish a less than moderate pvp interference in their endeavors.
Without being too obvious...

C&P isn't ever going to 'work' as intended, regardless of how many changes are made to make life harder for player killers, because the 'fun' will always outweigh the risk. Credits are almost meaningless for an established player (apart from me, and anyone else who rarely does missions etc. to raise billions), engineering has been made much more accessible with recent changes, so even the loss of a fully engineered ship isn't going to hurt too much if the "Ship go BOOM!" desire is briefly sated...

FD are not likely to introduce a PvE mode, more likely to remind us that Mobius exists, as does other PG / Solo options.
If a player doesn't want to play with the 'risk' of unwanted 'organic interaction', they are in complete control of the situation, it is blatantly staring them in the face each time they log in to play.

"But I wanna meet other players!" is fine, but only 1 choice makes it so that you don't meet those players, why are players so stubborn? (then complain about their choice?)
 
The Risk vs Reward of playing in Open is so heavily weighted towards Risk that very many players choose to play in Private or Solo instead for that reason alone, rather than because they want to avoid interacting with 'normal' players. If you consider that having more players in Open is a good thing for the game as a whole, then ganking really is a big problem for the game right now.
If you know the basics of escape then most attacks are escapable. The problem is people have unrealistic expectations of shared spaces- you do have top end killers but also explorers who seem to lack common sense and an unwillingness to do the basics to mitigate things.

Why shouldn't the balance be that gankers are the ones who have to avoid busy systems, rather than the peaceful players. Logically busy systems in the core of the bubble should be the best places in the game for traders, not the worst.
They indeed should, but again unless your ship can withstand thirty seconds of attack nothing short of Brabus halting the servers will help. NPCs still have to interdict you (and somehow force you out of SC), they then have to neuter you (only really possible by ATR via reverb lasers) and all of this to a seasoned player is easily escapable and avoidable. Hence why you'll never have a 100% safe area (open especially). The only 'real' way would be to block access to systems via permits, but that leads to a rabbit hole I don't want to go down.

At the same time, these safe places should also make medium amounts of money with the real hazard pay being low sec or anarchy.

Every player will relatively early on start taking steps to be able to escape, or face down, NPC pirates. This will not prepare them for chain interdiction by players in fully-engineered ships that just wants to 'dunk on noobs' and see them go boom. In many cases where they have to go to that particular system, community goal, powerplay or whatever, the correct 'steps' are to high-wake out and then switch to Solo before coming back, then to never use Open again because what's the point.
Rinzler and years of people hauling in open in Powerplay disagree with you. Its a matter of learning rather than simply giving up because they encountered an obstacle. Its literally setting an emergency destination, having a minimal amount of shields and not panicking- that is, keep moving, not flee in a straight line.
 
Let's have a look at a typical trading Community Goal scenario. Considering I am a trader that wants to compete in a community goal to get the prizes for top tier of players I am on a lost position from the get-go.

I have a choice - sacrifice some of my cargo space to get more armour and bigger shields to increase my survivability. This means that competing in the CG immediately becomes a lost cause, as the people who fly in Solo can easily go for min-maxed shieldless, defenceless all-cargo-rack builds, which means they will be able to haul A LOT more and win the CG.
Open only cmdrs can get into top 10%, but they cannot hope or neither have means to be "competetive" due of that they need optimize thier bulids specifically for open, wich is nothing else than sacrifice thier cargo capacity for some defences, and thats since ever CG was added into game.

Still, I would say, if really want win hauling CG, do it at solo like others who are in top of that game, rather than complain how open is unfair in that regard. Of course open is unfair becasue of risk being ganked. Charms of open, and it wont be away, becasue open is also PVP mode, like it or not.


What could be done to make it a bit better? Below are some of the proposals we came up together (remember I said it's been discussed with a lot of people, some of which were also gankers!)
  • Remove the 2 million bounty cap for player bounty hunting. If a player has 100 million bounty - that's how much the bounty hunter should get!
Im all in for removing bounty caps. Its relic, and if removed, it still would not be anymore diffrent than "donating" as if say, wanted cmdr with 1b gives away it for thier friend, they still would need pay it upon rebui. Doing it by FC trade "donating", its way more simplier, easier and faster, than killing countless cmdrs or npcs to gather high bounty in to just give it away to a friend, who might be needed in credit boost. I cant image anyone doing it for that given FC are here now.

And its removal of cap would boost PVP bounty hunting by a lot, and actually properly reward those who would score kill like that.
  • Increase player bounties greatly. With the cap removed, make it actually worthwhile for the player bounty hunters to engage with Wanted players.
Its actually not needed, with notoriety 10 and high-value ship, an ganker can still get millions of bounty added per single kill.
  • Make escaping player interdictions easier.
Intediction game suffers mostly from lag and off-sync issues, but there is skill and knack for it required as well to be "good" at it.
  • Make the aggressor being pulled to the victim after the successful and/or submitted interdiction, rather than the other way around. This will mean that the reward for my better piloting skills is the better chance to get to my destination if I manage to escape back into Super Cruise.
It would not make sense from very definiton how interdiction works, both as mechanic and by "lore" how it works.
  • Multiply the victims' rebuy cost being added to the criminal's rebuy after they destroy a ship. Make it scalable with the current Credits value in the economy.
I would love to see that, currently gaining high bounty is hassle, even with high-value ships, of course by going only after cmdrs. But thats only my opinion, as someone with nearly 2b on myself, and besides, it would punish too much in PVE again, than it already does.
  • From certain level of Notoriety (5 and above?) make the criminal get only the stock ship back, losing their engineered modules. Alternatively make them retrieveable after specific amount of time only (24/48 hours?)
Hell nope. As already pointed out by some others, this would make PVE too much punishing if someone decide doing illegal missions or make mistake, and then lose it all. Increase costs in credits, yes... but not take away engineered modules. Also, what if someone have double-engineered modules or really good legacy ones? You cant have them anymore if lost like that. You got carried bit too much here, pal.
  • Increase the police response in High and Medium Security systems. Low Sec and Anarchy should be fairly safe for criminals, but Med and High should really make them think twice before they decide to destroy another player's ship.
Current problem is how ATR works. And there is no good balance, becasue if that would be too harsh, it would punish again, too much in PVE and those who cant deal with it. ATR can be evaded, but if they appear, they are already more than adequate to deal with thier target, mainly becasue of thier cheated weapons.

  • Introduce more reasons to be a criminal that don't involve mindless ganking.
In space, ships go boom. That reason its enough, might as well be countless others. If attacked in open, do not try reason with it, but either fight back or evade it. It is that much simple. Open can be risky, and anyone should be aware of that, its not kind of rainbow unicorn paradise where every other player is kind and friendly, as many thinks it should.

I found it funny that no one complains if they get attacked by npcs, who just sayin: "I am pirate lord, and I kill you" (do not mistake it with pirate npcs who might want just cargo - there are npcs who going for the kill right of bat) but if other cmdr doing it, suddenly sea of salt appears and pointless disscusions, about "but I dont have cargo or weapons but other player killed me, WHY" or something along these lines... In elite dangerous, within its lore, cmdrs can get blasted out by loitering landing pad among many other reasons, and overall its very harsh environment for single human/cmdr in terms how easly they can die (way worse than in medieval period for example), since there is hundreds of billions of them. Loss of life/assets its been consider by very diffrently in 3300, by lore, than our "modern" standarts.

Of course main diffrence is when attacked by npc vs other player, is that npcs can be avoided with relative ease, while cmdrs who knows what they are doing, they do get thier kills by most of time, and evading those is also skill required to survive in open.
 
Last edited:
So - what do you guys think? I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Okay! warms up virtual keyboard

This thread is about the current Crime and Punishment system in Elite Dangerous - mainly in the context of PVP - so if we could stick to that topic and context it would be good. With that short intro out of the way - let's have a look at it.

CRIME AND PUNIHSMENT

Currently the main drivers behind the Crime and Punishment systems are: Fines, Bounties and Notoriety. I won't be talking about fines, they are more or less meaningless.

The players that choose the more serious criminal path get assigned bounties and notoriety. As an effect, the two main "punishments" for crimes seems to be effectively:
  • Financial implications - the criminals that destroy other players' ships have to pay a percentage of their victims' rebuy costs.
  • Gameplay implications - the inability to use station systems like refuel, rearm and repair until you pay off the bounties (which is not possible unless your Notoriety is 0)
None of these 2 things are fit for purpose in the current game reality.
  • Credits are ridiculously easy to get, so the victims' rebuy cost addition is 100% non-punishment, as you can get that money back in a couple of hours tops.
  • With the addition of Fleet Carriers and also a gazillion of Odyssey settlements that offer the services - the inability to use the services on the main station(s) is also not a problem at all.
This is why I am of an opinion that the whole system needs revisiting and restructuring to fit the current game reality better. Another reason is that while some players enjoy the thrill of piracy and combat, the balance currently swings too far in favour of gankers/criminals at the expense of traders, explorers and other "victims".

No argument here... but the point of a Crime and Punishment system is to make crime against NPCs fun, challenging, and rewarding, not to punish PvP actions. Using one system for both is doomed to fail. 2013 Frontier seemed to understand this fact, but failed to follow up on this.

Let's have a look at a typical trading Community Goal scenario. Considering I am a trader that wants to compete in a community goal to get the prizes for top tier of players I am on a lost position from the get-go.

I have a choice - sacrifice some of my cargo space to get more armour and bigger shields to increase my survivability. This means that competing in the CG immediately becomes a lost cause, as the people who fly in Solo can easily go for min-maxed shieldless, defenceless all-cargo-rack builds, which means they will be able to haul A LOT more and win the CG.

From my point of view, people who are flying the builds you describe are actually at a disadvantage to players who are willing to take risks to make their runs a lot quicker, and can greatly reduce those risks by sacrificing a bit of cargo capacity. Sacrificing 8% of my total cargo capacity so I can safely make twice as many runs as someone who has to fly safely due to a cardboard buiold is well worth it. The ability to tank an alpha strike from a station campers, and still safely land, is just a welcome bonus.

And even if I somehow manage to be able to compete with them, the chain-interdictions from people that want to prevent me from delivering that cargo mean that I have literally no chance. It is almost impossible to escape an interdiction from a maxxed out PVP gank-boat in my heavy trader loaded up with armour and cargo. The only viable option is to submit. But when I do that - I'm getting pulled back to the attacker's position. Meaning that if I manage to outmanoeuvre them and get back into Super Cruise, now I have to cover the distance to the station again. This makes it extremely easy for another interdiction, and even if I mange to submit and get back into SC a few times in a row, I keep getting chain-interdicted and after 5th - 6th time it becomes just an annoyance.

In my experience, if it's reached the point where they can actually attempt to interdict me, I've already failed on what matters most: failed in navigation to reduce my window of vulnerability, failed in my situational awareness, and failed in taking appropriate action to what should be an obvious threat.

PROPOSED CHANGES

What could be done to make it a bit better? Below are some of the proposals we came up together (remember I said it's been discussed with a lot of people, some of which were also gankers!)
  • Remove the 2 million bounty cap for player bounty hunting. If a player has 100 million bounty - that's how much the bounty hunter should get!
  • Increase player bounties greatly. With the cap removed, make it actually worthwhile for the player bounty hunters to engage with Wanted players.

If a player isn't interested in PvP bounty hunting already, it doesn't really matter what the reward is, especially given how easy credits are to come by these days.

  • Make escaping player interdictions easier.

Frontier really dropped the ball in allowing players to engineer their interdiction modules, and any changes to the mechanics that doesn't remove that engineering will simply make escaping from NPCs even easier than it is already.

  • Make the aggressor being pulled to the victim after the successful and/or submitted interdiction, rather than the other way around. This will mean that the reward for my better piloting skills is the better chance to get to my destination if I manage to escape back into Super Cruise.

My first thought was about how this could be used as a way to speed up my travel, at the expense of the person I would never even consider interdicting in the first place. Long range interdiction modification + "common forum advice" = long distance teleportation! ;)

  • Multiply the victims' rebuy cost being added to the criminal's rebuy after they destroy a ship. Make it scalable with the current Credits value in the economy.
  • From certain level of Notoriety (5 and above?) make the criminal get only the stock ship back, losing their engineered modules. Alternatively make them retrieveable after specific amount of time only (24/48 hours?)

You do realize that notoriety is mostly gained by murdering NPCs right?

RIGHT???

  • Increase the police response in High and Medium Security systems. Low Sec and Anarchy should be fairly safe for criminals, but Med and High should really make them think twice before they decide to destroy another player's ship.
  • Introduce more reasons to be a criminal that don't involve mindless ganking.

Introduce more reasons to be a criminal, period.

All in all, I think it is fair to say the C&P is no longer fit for purpose and even if you disagree with some of the proposals above, it definitely requires another look and changes to fit the current game reality better.

C&P isn't even fit for purpose from a PvE point of view, because there's little risk in criminal activity, and even less reward.
 
Rinzler and years of people hauling in open in Powerplay disagree with you. Its a matter of learning rather than simply giving up because they encountered an obstacle. Its literally setting an emergency destination, having a minimal amount of shields and not panicking- that is, keep moving, not flee in a straight line.
My sheldless but heavily armored T9 has yet to be destroyed and has been interdicted a fair few times. Some people just like to be blown up I guess.

I do still believe that fdev could effectively lock notoroius players out of high sec systems, but as long as a single player gets their ship destroyed we’ll be here talking on the forums about the morals of it.
 
Rinzler and years of people hauling in open in Powerplay disagree with you. Its a matter of learning rather than simply giving up because they encountered an obstacle. Its literally setting an emergency destination, having a minimal amount of shields and not panicking- that is, keep moving, not flee in a straight line.
But again why should we have to bother? why should we be someone else's entertainment just because they can? Again the attacker looses naff all, a trader is never going to kill them, sure its pretty easy to submit and escape but then what's the point? Its just wasting my time.
No thanks i will stay in PVE mode.

O7
 
That’s fine, enjoy yourself.

But surely the point of this conversation is to try to find a balance. As I said before there’s always people who don’t want to play in Open, and all power to you. But lots of people are turned off Open because there’s basically no risk to the attacker, only risk to the attacked.

I’m a PvE player, but I mostly play in Open. I don’t when doing AX combat because there’s always someone wanting to annoy us knowing that we can’t fight back, and during CGs - as has already been said, even the gankers don’t run CGs in open! Which kinda says it all really…

Unless I’m doing fleet carrier operations my mining/trade cutter is fully shielded and has enough weapons to take out any NPCs, but will never be a match for a dedicated fighter, so I have to just run. Which is kinda boring 🤷
I assume FDev's philosophy, especially for trade CGs, is that you need to wing up with a fighter escort, who uses a dedicated combat ship.
 
Behaviourally people are going to continue to combat log regardless of perceived etiquette or TOS. To encourage legitimate piracy, in the event of a log, perhaps:

  • the ship could stay in instance, perhaps invunerably, giving the pirate the chance to hatch break. When the CMDR logs on again that cargo is lost to them.
  • some cargo is automatically disgorged on a log. CMDR loses this when they log on again and the pirate is free to collect from free space.
Since Elite Dangerous uses Peer to Peer, the authority about what happens in the instance is goverened by the players. These options give cheaters avenues for abuse (by either forcing a disconnect through DDOS, crashing or through other means such as confusing the server/adjudicator).
 
"But I wanna meet other players!" is fine, but only 1 choice makes it so that you don't meet those players, why are players so stubborn? (then complain about their choice?)

It's not quite like that - the PVE private groups contain only a small part of the population (which is further fragmented by the fact that there is way more than one PVE PG), simply because not everyone is aware of their existence and not at last because joining a pve pg is not easy

So a PVE private group will never be a match for a generic PVE mode, nor for open, when it comes to meeting random strangers


IMO, FDev should enforce strong and meaningful C&P to deter mindless ganking, but without interfering much with organic and organized pvp
Which imo is rather hard to achieve unless they introduce a pvp enable toggle or they give a new meaning and power to "report crimes against me" - without making it easy for gankers to abuse from such mechanics (like the ganker's abuse of blocking versus the ones hunting gankers)
 
Probably why they used to incorporate two CGs every time, one for combat, one for trade, in the same system.

No idea what they do these days.
Its a nice idea, but usually the highest earners in bounty hunting CGs would be the ones who camped out in a suitable Haz RES (or used some method of AFKing in a turreted T-10, or similar).

The amount of bouties you're going to pick up on a trade run is going to be fairly minimal anyway, especially if it's against another player where you're looking at a 20 minute battle if you're both in dedicated PvP builds.
 
IMO, FDev should enforce strong and meaningful C&P to deter mindless ganking, but without interfering much with organic and organized pvp
Which is extremely difficult at times given the amount of anger I've seen directed at people over powerplay kills and bounty hunts. Hell, not long ago the reddit had a big thread naming and shaming people as gankers for killing them in a conflict zone. The kind of stuff that attracts the "ganking" label is incredibly broad and in many cases applied to 100% intended activities.

The other thing is the extremely broad range of reactions to things like, say, pvp piracy. Some people treat an interdiction at all as being some gross violation of the sanctity of their game, other people are amazed and delighted to encounter an actual real pirate, other people get incensed at the notion of the pirate actually shooting if the quarry ignores their demands and tries to wake out. It's literally impossible to please everyone because what one person calls "organic pvp" another will call "mindless ganking".
 
It brings it back to the point about player bounties being too low in the current economy.

The payout is too low when considering Cr/h; if you want to make the server a better place, you’re not really taking them out of the equation for long; and there’s the risk they’re just going to block you anyway so they can carry on with impunity.
Well, even with the 3000 mj shields gone and at 50% hull in one of my FdLs, I'd still expect to wake out with little issue. Credit rewards are too low for player bounties, but arguably that's secondary to it being extremely difficult to blow up a player in a decent build combat ship in the first place.

In a bounty hunting CG, I can't think of any scenario that allows bounty hunting of players reliably earning more than hunting NPCs without some form of cheesing the system.
 
It's not quite like that - the PVE private groups contain only a small part of the population (which is further fragmented by the fact that there is way more than one PVE PG), simply because not everyone is aware of their existence and not at last because joining a pve pg is not easy
Mobias was simple to join a few years ago, I have no idea if it has changed now.
Maybe it is just me, but meeting randoms in a fleeting "o7" (maybe) as you wander your way, is hardly exciting. I'd rather be spending time playing with folk I want to play with, although that pool is miniscule.
So a PVE private group will never be a match for a generic PVE mode, nor for open, when it comes to meeting random strangers
FD do not have the corporate courage to offer a PvE 'open' mode, and likely not the technology to enforce it. The outrage from a minority of players would be fun though if they did!
 
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom