Open-Only in PP2.0?

[Jockey79]

So let's see, today alone (the past 4 hours) I've been accused of;

Being scared
Hiding,
Causing problems,
Cheating.

All because I play the game the way it was designed, advertised and sold to me. The Devs themselves have constantly reinforced the design, yet I have to sit here and face a barrage of insults over and over because I don't want to be someone else's content.

I remember why I walked away from these forums, because if I respond back in the same manner, I get into trouble. Yet the posts with those direct insults are just sitting there.

 

[Mr Jack Burton]

So let's see, today alone (the past 4 hours) I've been accused of;

Being scared
Hiding,
Causing problems,
Cheating.

All because I play the game the way it was designed, advertised and sold to me. The Devs themselves have constantly reinforced the design, yet I have to sit here and face a barrage of insults over and over because I don't want to be someone else's content.

I remember why I walked away from these forums, because if I respond back in the same manner, I get into trouble. Yet the posts with those direct insults are just sitting there.

No one should be made to feel attacked for their choices. However, it’s important to remember that everyone has their own way of engaging with ED, and different perspectives are part of what makes the game and its community so diverse.

While you have every right to enjoy the game as it was sold to you, others are equally entitled to want changes that make their experience more rewarding, especially in open play. We all want the best for the game, and respecting each other’s preferences is key to keeping the conversation productive. Let’s focus on constructive dialogue and avoid getting bogged down in personal conflicts <3

 

[Rubbernuke]

Ah, i see, so no PvP specific stuff.



They can do something. They can also do PP activities to promote their power. I mean, you could use the same argument for any activity where players could be sat ready to defend against an attack. Just because it happens to be a FC doesn't mean anything as long as someone's FC can't be really hurt. Its just another mission.

Well you are asked to and rewarded for PvP kills. And as I said, the balance will be if the FC support ship and surrounding NPCs approximate other players- if they don't then its easier in modes without players.

 

[Mrc_NorthEast]

I am curious just how aggressive and fully engineered up the NPC Power Police will be to pledges of hostile powers. I was a module shopper only in pp1.0 for the longest time. However once the Tharg war kicked in and I started killing goids, the pp1.0 powers who gave % increases to combat bonds tempted me. So I ended up staying pledged to Mommy Duval for the % to combat bonds only. So I think that makes me a pp1.0 casual. I got alot of extra credits that way, not sure what I am going to do with all of those credits but fun anyway. But in pp1.0 I could stay pledged to Mommy Duval and participate in CG's, run hauling or trading missions, massacre missions, cross the bubble to rescue megaships and ignore the Hostile powers in whatever ship and loadout I felt like flying.

With pp2.0 I am not sure how well that will work, no matter the mode (open, solo, pg). It certainly sounds like if pledged to any PP2.0 power, and that Cmdr needs to cross the bubble for missions, trade, unlocks, engineering, etc. that they run the risk of constant harassment by Players and Npc's in Open, and then the Power Police npc's for the other modes. I am not sure how well most players of Elite will respond to that. PP 2.0 could force alot of players out of power play unless the perks are really good and worth the time. I hope Fdev is up to the task and has thought through all the game modes, game loops, etc. And remember just how long it took Fdev to get the Tharg war mechanics working for Titan runs, or for control systems

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Well you are asked to and rewarded for PvP kills. And as I said, the balance will be if the FC support ship and surrounding NPCs approximate other players- if they don't then its easier in modes without players.

No difference to it being in open if there are no players around the FC either. Unless people are on 24/7 waiting on the off chance that the FC is attacked, but then that might be pretty boring waiting for someone to turn up to attack it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

No difference to it being in open if there are no players around the FC either. Unless people are on 24/7 waiting on the off chance that the FC is attacked, but then that might be pretty boring waiting for someone to turn up to attack it.

Thats where the NPC response comes in- if its a popular stronghold target the NPCs need to be good. Its also about having the chance of seeing who is attacking you opportunistically if people are there.

If you watch FU-4 the devs talk about fights, dodging them and going for it- if NPCs are weak all that kind of fails.

 

[Mr Jack Burton]

No difference to it being in open if there are no players around the FC either. Unless people are on 24/7 waiting on the off chance that the FC is attacked, but then that might be pretty boring waiting for someone to turn up to attack it.

Patience is one of our finest qualities in the Kumo Crew We might not be around 24/7, but when we are, let's just say… surprises are our specialty.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Since it looks like there's a lot of beating around the bush, here it's my proposal... when PP 2.0 drops, start on this sub a diary-thread for players posting in this and other threads who didn't enjoy open so far, to switch in open only with empty blocklists for a period, like at least three months, but may be better six, (of course not looking to depart for some remote exploration journeys or self-isulating somewhere) doing what they used to do like AX combat, CGs, powerplay etc and reporting any meaningful anectode for the audience.

I'm curious about the outcome...

I’m more than willing to help with that.

If it’s anything like my previous experiences, the rough proportion of entries will be:

• 90% Didn’t see anyone in Supercruise
• 9% Saw someone in Supercruise, but there’s no way they can be a threat to me
• 0.9% Potential threat to me, but currently it’s unlikely they are one. I’ll monitor them just in case.
• 0.1% Probable threat to me. How do I want to handle this? The fun way, the friendly way, or the wild goose chase way?

 

[Viajero]

When people choose the mode they want to play in, they accept everything that goes with it as part of the game.
But none of that has been part of this discussion has it, so I'm not sure why you're trying to move the goalposts.
The entire theme behind Open bonuses / Solo and PG nerfs is to force people (specifically haulers, not combat ships) out of their current mode into Open mode.
So those people are facing added risk to themselves, while those demanding the change have no added risk to their game. Just more targets.

You had noticed the people demanding bonuses to Open Mode (or nerfing Solo/PG) are the ones with the guns, right?

Unless someone who has been demanding the changes has 1,000 hours worth of Open Mode hauling videos they'd like to share? (to prove me wrong)

Fully agree that people are accepting everything that goes with the game, in all modes, not just Open. But that should not prevent the game scaling rewards correspondingly to the accepted risk and danger. Risks and danger in a low res are much lower than trying killing a hydra, and rewards scale accordingly. Same logic should apply to Open when it comes to accepting the additional risk and danger of facing players that want to engage in combat with you, and which may usually be much more dangerous than your average NPC and can be literally anywhere.

Now, with regards to the OP discussion I do not think there is any need whatsoever to make PP 2.0 (or any other part of the game for that matter) exclusive to Open. I am fully with you when you say you do not want to become "someone else´s content". I think there is no conflict in having all modes in all kinds of gameplay and all of them strictly optional.

But, as mentioned, playing in Open carries an additional risk compared to Solo or Groups (much like engaging a Hydra carries more risk than going to a low res in Solo) that indeed should be somehow rewarded appropriately and which currently isn´t, particularly in PowerPlay.

And I am not one of those you described as "with the guns" .

 

[Darrack]

It remains to be seen how much guidance, if any, those engaged in Powerplay 2.0 need from any of the existing groups of players involved in the old version.

From what im seeing it looks like players will be able to make their own discissions on what to do and how to influence their powers with the new mission system.
Yes you can coordinate things but my guess is that player groups guiding the strategy will be a thing of the past.

O7

 

[Darrack]

Why are we even continuing to argue?
The thread is about Open only PP2.

It wont be

O7

 

[Mrc_NorthEast]

...one mode stands out as the one where you'll face more danger.....

Potential extra risk is possible, unless Fdev keep track of did someone get involved in Pvp while in Open, otherwise there was no threat, just like solo or pg

Part of the thrill of open play in ED is the unpredictability of encounters.

So again only a potential extra risk of engaging Pvp while in Open, otherwise there was no threat, just like solo or pg

 

[Jockey79]

Fully agree that people are accepting everything that goes with the game, in all modes, not just Open. But that should not prevent the game scaling rewards correspondingly to the accepted risk and danger. Risks and danger in a low res are much lower than trying killing a hydra, and rewards scale accordingly. Same logic should apply to Open when it comes to accepting the additional risk and danger of facing players that want to engage in combat with you, and which may usually be much more dangerous than your average NPC and can be literally anywhere.

Now, with regards to the OP discussion I do not think there is any need whatsoever to make PP 2.0 (or any other part of the game for that matter) exclusive to Open. I am fully with you when you say you do not want to become "someone else´s content". I think there is no conflict in having all modes in all kinds of gameplay and all of them strictly optional.

But, as mentioned, playing in Open carries an additional risk compared to Solo or Groups (much like engaging a Hydra carries more risk than going to a low res in Solo) that indeed should be somehow rewarded appropriately and which currently isn´t, particularly in PowerPlay.

And I am not one of those you described as "with the guns" .

I still say the risk for a combat pilot in Open is no where near comparable to the risk a hauler has in Open.

Do this experiment in a PG with a trusted friend who will take it seriously;

Get a friend in a G5 murder boat and you fly another fitted combat ship and have them interdict you 5 times.
Get the same friend in the same ship and you fly a 500T loaded T9 and have them interdict you 5 times.

At no point do you submit.
Then tell me how many times you escaped interdiction as a combat ship and how many in a hauler.

As an extra bonus, find a decent system (something like Shinrata) where the target station isn't way out, but also not on top of the star. And see how many times in both ships they can interdict you between the star and docking. You can submit in this test for the faster FSD cooldown, they also have to return to SC as fast as possible and keep going until you dock.

My guess at the results would be;

Interdiction wins; combat ship 3 / hauler 0 (out of 5)
Chase scores; combat ship 1 / hauler once per 2,000ls away the station is from the star (times pulled out of SC)

There is no way a genuine person could do this and still sit there claiming those poor G5 murder boats have equal or more risk than the haulers in Open.
When they not only stand a better chance of evading another combat ship should one try, but even if they don't evade one they have insta kill guns on them - you only need the first shot and you're back out cruising for targets. The haulers have no such luck, once they are pulled out of SC, unless the combat pilot/ship is a complete moron the hauler has zero chance of survival.

 

[Doctor Dread]

. There should be a tangible incentive to choose open play, where the risks are inherently higher.

Why?!!

The only risk is for a trader. Gankers in G5 murderboats have literally zero risk, only hawhaw in slaughtering left and right.

And gankers are shouting here "come to Open Play, Open Play"!

What risks are you talking about? For whom?

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Potential extra risk is possible, unless Fdev keep track of did someone get involved in Pvp while in Open, otherwise there was no threat, just like solo or pg


So again only a potential extra risk of engaging Pvp while in Open, otherwise there was no threat, just like solo or pg

And the point is, a player in open hauling for a powerplay power or acting in an opposing CG (where there is a competitive element), that due to that potential extra risk (which is significant should you encounter it compared with what you definitely will face running the same scenario in other modes, (which as a sidebar is more likely to due to the compressing nature of such events (i.e. you are operating in one or two known systems)), needs to make provision in their build for it that renders them uncompetitive versus a player who is operating in similar circumstances in either Solo or a Private Group.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

There is no way a genuine person could do this and still sit there claiming those poor G5 murder boats have equal or more risk than the haulers in Open.
When they not only stand a better chance of evading another combat ship should one try, but even if they don't evade one they have insta kill guns on them - you only need the first shot and you're back out cruising for targets. The haulers have no such luck, once they are pulled out of SC, unless the combat pilot/ship is a complete moron the hauler has zero chance of survival.

I don't think anybody is making that equivocation. What they are saying (generally) is someone carrying out an activity in open has a greater risk attached to it than you would carrying that exact same activity in either Solo or a Private Group, due to potentially meeting a player who opposes you.

In powerplay, this risk increases significantly due to (i) the system encourages Player vs. Player interactions when rival pledged players meet, and (ii) much like with CGs and whichever exploit grind (e.g. Slaves at Sophis) is being used at the moment (which is why most of the 'salt' posts in the old days would focus on those locations), compresses players who partake in it into a much smaller number of known systems.

Sidebar, if I (who isn't exactly the most skilled player) can survive in open, in an Adder, Cobra or a uparmoured bulker like a type 7, I'd strongly suggest that your 'zero chance of surival' statement is wrong.

 

[Jockey79]

I don't think anybody is making that equivocation. What they are saying (generally) is someone carrying out an activity in open has a greater risk attached to it than you would carrying that exact same activity in either Solo or a Private Group, due to potentially meeting a player who opposes you.

In powerplay, this risk increases significantly due to (i) the system encourages Player vs. Player interactions when rival pledged players meet, and (ii) much like with CGs and whichever exploit grind (e.g. Slaves at Sophis) is being used at the moment (which is why most of the 'salt' posts in the old days would focus on those locations), compresses players who partake in it into a much smaller number of known systems.

Sidebar, if I (who isn't exactly the most skilled player) can survive in open, in an Adder, Cobra or a uparmoured bulker like a type 7, I'd strongly suggest that your 'zero chance of surival' statement is wrong.

Well as Frontier have always been known for taking the easiest, cheapest and quickest solution (hence P2P networking - the worst choice for an "MMO").
If the problem is as bad as folks around here keep saying - then just disable Open Mode. Problem solved.
If everyone is in Solo or a community group, then everyone is on equal footing.

I mean this solution completely ignores the fact Frontier said the majority of people play in Open Mode anyway and ignores Frontier saying (in direct response to PP) that the modes balance each other out already. (enough people on all sides are split between the groups so Solo balances Solo, PG balances PG). So those who are willfully ignoring the fact Frontier responded to this topic already wish to continue saying there is an issue, Frontier should just solve the issue and shut off Open Mode. It's the cheapest option, it's quick, they could do it today.

I prefer the option of turning Power Play into its own mode like CQC/ Arena is its own mode. Disconnect it from the main galaxy, so it can have its own galaxy that is only affected by those in the PP Mode and shove it to one side. So the main game can return to what was advertised and sold for the past 12 years. This would be my preferred outcome. As PP actions wouldn't impact my gameplay, and PP folks can finally get what they want, unrestricted access to each other (I do not believe this is what those complaining want, as this mode argument existed before Power Play was dreamt up - PP is just the current excuse to try and break the mode system and force people into Open Mode)

 

[Rebel Yell]

I’m more than willing to help with that.

If it’s anything like my previous experiences, the rough proportion of entries will be:

• 90% Didn’t see anyone in Supercruise
• 9% Saw someone in Supercruise, but there’s no way they can be a threat to me
• 0.9% Potential threat to me, but currently it’s unlikely they are one. I’ll monitor them just in case.
• 0.1% Probable threat to me. How do I want to handle this? The fun way, the friendly way, or the wild goose chase way?

May be the new PP 2.0 will change those numbers... 0.1% of potential threat would mean there's a lot of beating around the bush for litterally nothing!

I mean, one needs to play like 1000 safe minutes at least to face 1 risky minute.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Well as Frontier have always been known for taking the easiest, cheapest and quickest solution (hence P2P networking - the worst choice for an "MMO").
If the problem is as bad as folks around here keep saying - then just disable Open Mode. Problem solved.
If everyone is in Solo or a community group, then everyone is on equal footing.

I mean this solution completely ignores the fact Frontier said the majority of people play in Open Mode anyway and ignores Frontier saying (in direct response to PP) that the modes balance each other out already. (enough people on all sides are split between the groups so Solo balances Solo, PG balances PG). So those who are willfully ignoring the fact Frontier responded to this topic already wish to continue saying there is an issue, Frontier should just solve the issue and shut off Open Mode. It's the cheapest option, it's quick, they could do it today.

I prefer the option of turning Power Play into its own mode like CQC/ Arena is its own mode. Disconnect it from the main galaxy, so it can have its own galaxy that is only affected by those in the PP Mode and shove it to one side. So the main game can return to what was advertised and sold for the past 12 years. This would be my preferred outcome. As PP actions wouldn't impact my gameplay, and PP folks can finally get what they want, unrestricted access to each other (I do not believe this is what those complaining want, as this mode argument existed before Power Play was dreamt up - PP is just the current excuse to try and break the mode system and force people into Open Mode)

I don't think its a case of them going for 'the easiest/cheapest/quickest solution', more a case of their naivety as a design team when it came to multiplayer gaming and the communities that get built around them, leading to them believing everyone would be all 'jumpers for goalposts' when it comes to sportsmanship, rather than picking the meta-path of least resistance.

I'd be careful using the 'Majority play in Open' quotation (its why I shy away from it in these discussions), as it was suitably vague and off-hand to be open to a lot of interpretation regarding the playerbase, their regularity of play and their activities when playing. There clearly must have been an issue with it regarding powerplay, that you and I don't know about though, otherwise Sandro wouldn't have been discussing with the community about either Open Only PP or Modal Weighted rewards.

The problem with disconnecting Powerplay from the main galaxy is, from what I understand, that its designed to be another mechanic overlayed (like Thargoids incursions, the BGS and CGs) to try to breathe some life into the 'mile wide, inches deep' complaints folk make regarding Elite Dangerous. Players being able to opt-in/out of the impacts of such systems does not seem to be something Frontier are particularly keen on.

ADDENDUM: Regarding the modal discussions, its important to remember that the people involved in the discussion have changed as time has progressed. In the early days, most Modal discussions came from PMF members or leaders who did not enjoy what they perceived as BGS manipulation in their various 'BGS wars' from the relative safety of a PG or Solo by other rival PMFs (as for them, a robust BGS was for them a metric of measuring success). The reason it has been around so long as a talking point, and discussion points have changed on it over time is because its a very 'broad church' discussion point on the other side of the aisle from yourself.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I’m more than willing to help with that.

If it’s anything like my previous experiences, the rough proportion of entries will be:

• 90% Didn’t see anyone in Supercruise
• 9% Saw someone in Supercruise, but there’s no way they can be a threat to me
• 0.9% Potential threat to me, but currently it’s unlikely they are one. I’ll monitor them just in case.
• 0.1% Probable threat to me. How do I want to handle this? The fun way, the friendly way, or the wild goose chase way?

The thing is, depending on what you do will affect those numbers. Someone who is in a combative power in a place thats under attack (or attacking) is going to see many more people go after them or people in general- for example the eternal FUC / ZYADA battles.

When I pootled around in Harma (vaguely safe space) I'd see plenty of PMF people, some neutral who would go o7, others that were not (since I was at the time wrecking their BGS around Harma systems, I'd see other allied pledges and randoms. Occasionally you'd have an Imperial guy in a PvP ship (but not this time).

From there I'd go to Broo and see an FDL on the pad. Since I was in an Asp I'd not want to tangle with them, so I time my Broo appointment to avoid us taking off together. I do that, and fly away. On my way back I glimpse Imperial pledges, so I get out as fast as I can.

Then I want to buy something and feel lazy, I go to Shin Dhez after swapping ships- we all know what happens next.

My active times would be 5am - 7am, and evenings Francetime, on slow ADSL.

So for me the danger is much higher because of what I'm doing. Doing expansions in Open, or UMing in Open in places that are 'hot' will also ramp things up. When I got my pulse disruptors I helped out and.....found out what life was like as part of the big two. Even part of Antal had its moments- there was a period of fighting over Kenna (wars one and two) where for once Utopia got angry and we saw plenty of Dentons pledges. Normal service was soon resumed and after that the threat level went down. When I module shopped with LYR I was practically invisible though

May be the new PP 2.0 will change those numbers... 0.1% of potential threat would mean there's a lot of beating around the bush for litterally nothing!

I mean, one needs to play like 1000 safe minutes at least to face 1 risky minute.

While V2 is more diffuse, it also has (quite clever, at least on paper) approximated Sandros idea of uncapped UM. You have a tug of war (unlike the 100% and done of V1) with influence generating systems that if lost (or demoted to exploited themselves) lose dependent exploited systems. So organically you'll soon have areas that will focus people (most likey from established groups) to protect them. But we'll have to see how things shake out.

EDIT: at the same time I can also talk about PP NPCs, who although I saw in SC never chased after me, (rarely) tried to interdict me (when they had interdictors) and barely made any impression.