Preparing for PZ2 metawishlist

[Milurian]

Just so it's in writing, if a sequel is ever announced I would like to and plan on curating the bird wishlist.

I think the plan is to only have one list or we are still working that out

I think we should leave it to voters to decide what they consider to be habitat or exhibit animals, as no objective criteria exist

I agree I feel the most accurate way to get data on what people want is to not split the data between the groups at all

Also my stance is firmly on less than 100 entries per person it takes forever to sort and it will mean each list will have infinitely more one off animals in them. The main 25 animal meta Wishlist voters had on average 0.08 unique animals in their lists and it still has 229 animals that only one person voted for if we more than quadruple the list we are going to end up with a much larger tail in the data which helps no one. Having people be concise in what they want is important and im sure if we dont hate long wishlists now we will when we have sorted upwards of 500.

 

[Captain Callum]

The main 25 animal meta Wishlist voters had on average 0.08 unique animals

I don't know if that's funny or sad. I guess there is a point when a lot of the "unique" animals to that person is actually a common zoo animal.

 

[Milurian]

ok we need to reach a consensus im more than happy to make a google forms for the main points to see what we agree on or if people have other ways to poll the data we should do that

 

[Milurian]

I don't know if that's funny or sad. I guess there is a point when a lot of the "unique" animals to that person is actually a common zoo animal.

there are very few in that final 200 that are anywhere remotely common most of them end up being specific subspecies, stuff thats qualification is questionable and random generic group votes.

there are definitely some common ones in there such as the south american fur seal, holstien cattle and any bandicoot but from a quick glace not really.
heres this list if your interested

African Brush-tailed Porcupine

African Pygmy Goose

African Spoonbill

Agami Heron

Allen's Swamp Monkey

American Crocodile

American Mink

American White Ibis

American White Pelican

Andean Flamingo

Angonoka Tortoise

Arabian Wolf

Argali

Asian Forest Tortoise

Asian Narrow-Headed Softshell Turtle

Australian Lungfish

Back-Throated Monitor

Bandicoot (any)

Bared-Faced Curassow

Bawean Deer

Bennett's Tree Kangaroo

Black Heron

Black Lemur

Black-Fronted Piping Guan

Black-Necked Swan

Blue Shark

Blue-billed Curassow

Blue-Spotted Tree Monitor

Borneo Bay Cat

Brocket Deer (any)

Bushbuck

Cabot’s Tragopan

Cape Bushbuck

Cape Genet

Cape hare

Central African Lion

Central Asian Red Deer

Chilean Flamingo

Chinese Red Pika

Chuckwalla (any)

Collared Mangabey

Colugo (any)

Comb Duck

Common Brown Lemur

Common Eider

Congo Clawless Otter

Congo Peafowl

Corsac Fox

Corsican Hare

Crab-eating Fox

Crested Fireback

Crested Partridge

Crowned Sifaka

Cuban Solenodon

Curlew (any)

Danish Protest Pig

Darwin's Fox

Delacour's Langur

Desert Monitor

Diademed Sifaka

Dingiso

Domestic Turkey

Dusky-Legged Guan

Dwarf Rabbit

East African Lion

Eastern Chimpanzee

Eastern Gorilla

Eastern Long-Beaked Echidna

Electric Eel (any)

Erect-Crested Penguin

European Polecat

Falanouc

Ferret

Fiordland Penguin

Fjall Cattle

Flat-Headed Cat

Flemish Giant Rabbit

Four-horned Antelope

Galápagos Penguin

Galápagos Sea Lion

Galloway Cattle

Gambel's Quail

German Moorland Sheep

Giant Crab (any)

Giant Ibis

Giant Sable Antelope

Golden-Bellied Mangabey

Goliath Heron

Gopher Tortoise

Gray-Bellied Night Monkey

Great Cormorant

Greater Sage Grouse

Grey-Winged Trumpeter

Grizzled Giant Squirrel

Grizzled Tree Kangaroo

Groundhog

Grouper (any)

Guatemalan Black Howler Monkey

Hall's New Guinea Crocodile

Hamerkop

Hartebeest

Heck Cattle

Holstein Frieisian Cattle

Hooded Seal

Horned Guan

Iberian Pig

Ili Pika

Indian Grey Mongoose

Indian Hog Deer

Indian Muntjac

Indian Runner Duck

Indochinese Leopard

Jacob Sheep

Japanese Spider Crab

Jentink's Duiker

Kagu

Kit Fox

Kleinmann's tortoise

Kouprey

Lac Alaotra Bamboo Lemur

Large Bamboo Rat

Lesser Flamingo

Little Spotted Kiwi

Loggerhead Sea Turtle

Longhorn Cattle

Long-Tailed Porcupine

Madagascar Pochard

Malayan Civet

Malayan Crested Argus

Malayan Porcupine

Malaysian Giant Turtle

Manx Loaghtan Sheep

Marbled Cat

Marginated Tortoise

Marsh Rabbit

Masked Palm Civet

Merten's Water Monitor

Mexican Spider Monkey

Mongoose Lemur

Montezuma Quail

Mountain Anoa

Mountain Bongo

Mountain Gazelle

Mountain Zebra (any)

Mugger Crocodile

Muskrat

Northern Hairy Nosed Wombat

Northern Pig Tailed Macaque

Nubian Giraffe

Nurse Shark

Olinguito

Orinoco Agouti

Orinoco Goose

Otter Civet

Pacarana

Pacific Loon

Pacific White-Sided Dolphin

Painted Stork

Parson's Chameleon

Philippine Pangolin

Pilot Whale (any)

Pink Fairy Armadillo

Pink-Eared Duck

Pinta Island Tortoise

Poney (any)

Pygmy Slow Loris

Racka Sheep

Red Grouse

Red Slender Loris

Red Tegu

Red-Breasted Goose

Red-Eared Slider

Red-Fronted Lemur

Ringed Seal

Ringed Teal

Riverine Rabbit

Round Stingray

Sand Goanna

Sandbar Shark

Satyr Tragopan

Savannah Monitor

Screaming Hairy Armadillo

Shetland Sheep

Siberian Crane

Siberian Ibex

Silvery Marmoset

Smooth-Coated Otter

Snow Goose

Soemmerring's gazelle

Solitary Tinamou

South American Fur Seal

South Andean Deer

South China Tiger

Southern Pig Tailed Macaque

Southwest African Lion

Spotted Eagle Ray

Spotted Skunk (any)

Sri Lankan Elephant

Steamer Duck (any)

Stoat

Striped Polecat

Sumatran Orangutan

Sumatran Stripped Rabbit

Suwannee Snapping Turtle

Tamaraw

Tammar Wallaby

Tapanuli Orangutan

Tarai Gray Langur

Tenessee Fainting Goat

Texas Longhorn

Thorold's Deer

Tibetan Macaque

Tufted Duck

Vancouver Island Marmot

Volcano Rabbit

West African Potto

Western Finncattle

Western Woolly Lemur

Whale (any)

White Shark

White-bellied/Himalayan Musk Deer

White-eared Titi

White-Headed Lemur

White-Naped Crane

Wild Goat (Kri-kri)

Wolf's Mona Monkey

Woolly Opossum (any)

Yacare Caiman

Yangtze Giant Softshell Turtle

Yellow-Bellied Marmot

 

[random goat]

The main 25 animal meta Wishlist voters had on average 0.08 unique animals in their lists and it still has 229 animals that only one person voted for if we more than quadruple the list we are going to end up with a much larger tail in the data which helps no one. Having people be concise in what they want is important and im sure if we dont hate long wishlists now we will when we have sorted upwards of 500.

A brief comment on this stance:
I've started making my own wishlist today and I can tell you with birds and fish the amount of unique animals can become absolutely insane. I can see people voting for dozens of different species of hummingbirds because there's not a consensus species.
Limiting the votes number can indeed alleviate that.

 

[Captain Callum]

Limiting the votes number can indeed alleviate that.

I found it works quite well limiting the number of species. On your wishlist with 25 animals, I spent time making sure all my choices were exactly what I wanted at the time, while on the more recent 2023/24 50 species wishlist I kind of just added animals to fill the space rather than an actual need for them.

100 is a good number to the average person, even with exhibits, birds and aquatic species it forces you to choose what you really want to include ingame and at the same time reduce the workload on the wishlist authors.

 

[Milurian]

A brief comment on this stance:
I've started making my own wishlist today and I can tell you with birds and fish the amount of unique animals can become absolutely insane. I can see people voting for dozens of different species of hummingbirds because there's not a consensus species.
Limiting the votes number can indeed alleviate that.

that is my thoughts as well based on what I have seen and the whole reason im suggesting a limit it wont stop people including 25 hummingbirds if they so want to but it will have people prioritise what their dream zoo roster is over just a list of their favourite birds.

 

[Markiz]

I see a lot of issues rise from the the fact that we don't know what types of animals will be in PZ2. I mean fully aquatic animals and flying birds are reasonable guess, but even then, before we get the announcement we don't know if these animals will be fully "habitat animals" (and this mainly stands for flying birds, but also where will they draw a line between habitat and exhibit marine species).

But then again, if we wait for announcement, that will be too late, because at that point, they'll most likely have their base game roster decided.

Now I'm just throwing this out there: Why not wait after the PZ2 releases to make a meta wishlist? Or even after the first few DLCs? It seems reasonable to me that when the game releases, they'll already have rough idea of what kinds of DLCs they want to put out next, and I probably already solidified lists of animals for first few.

When game releases (and maybe new DLC) we will have better idea of what to expect, and how to construct our wishlists. I see some difficulties around constructing this new wishlist stem exactly from our lack of idea what will be fair game for habitat roster.

Again, just an idea to consider.

 

[Milurian]

I see a lot of issues rise from the the fact that we don't know what types of animals will be in PZ2. I mean fully aquatic animals and flying birds are reasonable guess, but even then, before we get the announcement we don't know if these animals will be fully "habitat animals" (and this mainly stands for flying birds, but also where will they draw a line between habitat and exhibit marine species).

But then again, if we wait for announcement, that will be too late, because at that point, they'll most likely have their base game roster decided.

Now I'm just throwing this out there: Why not wait after the PZ2 releases to make a meta wishlist? Or even after the first few DLCs? It seems reasonable to me that when the game releases, they'll already have rough idea of what kinds of DLCs they want to put out next, and I probably already solidified lists of animals for first few.

When game releases (and maybe new DLC) we will have better idea of what to expect, and how to construct our wishlists. I see some difficulties around constructing this new wishlist stem exactly from our lack of idea what will be fair game for habitat roster.

Again, just an idea to consider.

Based on what we know we have at least 2 years between now and then this will be a great way to keep the community centralised and engaged. Im of the opinion we build this list now see what happens at release and edit the format as needed because inevitably on release likely over 75 animals will be added so it will completely change the order if we than also have to split the list because aquatics didnt make it or exhibits make a return so be it.

 

[Markiz]

Fair enough

 

[Stygi]

A brief comment on this stance:
I've started making my own wishlist today and I can tell you with birds and fish the amount of unique animals can become absolutely insane. I can see people voting for dozens of different species of hummingbirds because there's not a consensus species.
Limiting the votes number can indeed alleviate that.

I found it works quite well limiting the number of species. On your wishlist with 25 animals, I spent time making sure all my choices were exactly what I wanted at the time, while on the more recent 2023/24 50 species wishlist I kind of just added animals to fill the space rather than an actual need for them.

100 is a good number to the average person, even with exhibits, birds and aquatic species it forces you to choose what you really want to include ingame and at the same time reduce the workload on the wishlist authors.

I have also had a little go at making my own wishlist, and trying to fit it into 100 animals would be pretty much impossible, I am not even including aquatics because I don't feel like it and I don't now how I could make 100 work

 

[Captain Callum]

I have also had a little go at making my own wishlist, and trying to fit it into 100 animals would be pretty much impossible, I am not even including aquatics because I don't feel like it and I don't now how I could make 100 work

That's a problem then if we are trying to find the balance between ample choice of animals and reducing workload for the wishlist authors. Yeah we can easily expand the wishlist to 200 but the work required to process that doubles and my god I would be miserable if I had to go through 200 animals for every single person who participates.

So what I can see the options are:

• Increase the limit to 150-200 animals for wishlists
• Remove abc animals that are very likely to come to the game
• Have separate wishlists for birds, aquariums and exhibit animals
• Enforce the 100 limit, making sure people understand every choice has to be an essential animal for you
• Remove flying birds and aquatic animals as we don't know if that's coming to the game

None of the options are really ideal but something needs to be figured out.

 

[Stygi]

That's a problem then if we are trying to find the balance between ample choice of animals and reducing workload for the wishlist authors. Yeah we can easily expand the wishlist to 200 but the work required to process that doubles and my god I would be miserable if I had to go through 200 animals for every single person who participates.

So what I can see the options are:

• Increase the limit to 150-200 animals for wishlists
• Remove abc animals that are very likely to come to the game
• Have separate wishlists for birds, aquariums and exhibit animals
• Enforce the 100 limit, making sure people understand every choice has to be an essential animal for you
• Remove flying birds and aquatic animals as we don't know if that's coming to the game

None of the options are really ideal but something needs to be figured out.

Probably the first one, given how many people have expressed interest in helping with the list, the work should be reduced when divided between so many people

 

[NachoB]

That's a problem then if we are trying to find the balance between ample choice of animals and reducing workload for the wishlist authors. Yeah we can easily expand the wishlist to 200 but the work required to process that doubles and my god I would be miserable if I had to go through 200 animals for every single person who participates.

So what I can see the options are:

• Increase the limit to 150-200 animals for wishlists
• Remove abc animals that are very likely to come to the game
• Have separate wishlists for birds, aquariums and exhibit animals
• Enforce the 100 limit, making sure people understand every choice has to be an essential animal for you
• Remove flying birds and aquatic animals as we don't know if that's coming to the game

None of the options are really ideal but something needs to be figured out.

Assuming at least a larger portion of the roster we now have will come back in the sequel i really don't have 100 animals i actively want. Sure i can come up with 100 if we combine birds, Aquatics and exhibits but even then idk maybe half would be really wanted.

 

[Stygi]

Assuming at least a larger portion of the roster we now have will come back in the sequel i really don't have 100 animals i actively want. Sure i can come up with 100 if we combine birds, Aquatics and exhibits but even then idk maybe half would be really wanted.

You don't have to meet the limit, if someone only has 50 animals they want then that is fine

 

[Markiz]

Assuming at least a larger portion of the roster we now have will come back in the sequel i really don't have 100 animals i actively want. Sure i can come up with 100 if we combine birds, Aquatics and exhibits but even then idk maybe half would be really wanted.

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines. Not that I don't need 100 animals (I am insatiable), but that I won't be voting for animals that I'm sure will return. And if we assume majority of our current roster will make it, there's really a lot of free space

 

[Captain Callum]

Assuming at least a larger portion of the roster we now have will come back in the sequel i really don't have 100 animals i actively want. Sure i can come up with 100 if we combine birds, Aquatics and exhibits but even then idk maybe half would be really wanted.

That's what I'm thinking of doing aswell, I'm not going to waste votes for saying African lion, giraffe, zebra, cheetah etc. It's a near guarantee that those animals are returning and the wishlist should focus on the new possibilities or the more unique dlc animals we have to fill up 100 animals.

 

[markun]

I'm also thinking: eg. one person votes for Elk, another for Wapiti. Would this therefore make Elk and Wapiti have one vote each despite being the same thing?

I think this raises a good point about terminology because to me they are not the same thing.

Elk

Wapiti

And given the differences in appearance - mainly antlers - I would want to vote for a Eurasian elk/moose rather than the North American one. Because you can’t substitute one for the other with the current PZ1 model.

Speaking of subspecies, I am not getting into the discussion from a point of maintenance or technicality, purely as a potential user and what I would hope it would want the list to communicate.

I expressly don’t want a Bengal tiger but I really, really do want a Sumatran tiger. I wouldn’t want to vote tiger because I wouldn’t know how, ultimately, that would be interpreted.

As I say, I understand that there are technical issues I can’t appreciate and I’m not keen to wade into arguments because of that but speaking solely as a potential user, this would probably impact my participation and others might feel the same.

 

[Milurian]

I think this raises a good point about terminology because to me they are not the same thing.

Elk

View attachment 404432

Wapiti

View attachment 404433

And given the differences in appearance - mainly antlers - I would want to vote for a Eurasian elk/moose rather than the North American one. Because you can’t substitute one for the other with the current PZ1 model.

Speaking of subspecies, I am not getting into the discussion from a point of maintenance or technicality, purely as a potential user and what I would hope it would want the list to communicate.

I expressly don’t want a Bengal tiger but I really, really do want a Sumatran tiger. I wouldn’t want to vote tiger because I wouldn’t know how, ultimately, that would be interpreted.

As I say, I understand that there are technical issues I can’t appreciate and I’m not keen to wade into arguments because of that but speaking solely as a potential user, this would probably impact my participation and others might feel the same.

The thing is in north america and most of the none european world elk and wapitit refers to the same animal with moose being the almost exclusive term form what the europeans call elk which was the point being discussed the choice of animal was ironically a good choice to show a different issue with common names.

 

[Milurian]

That's a problem then if we are trying to find the balance between ample choice of animals and reducing workload for the wishlist authors. Yeah we can easily expand the wishlist to 200 but the work required to process that doubles and my god I would be miserable if I had to go through 200 animals for every single person who participates.

So what I can see the options are:

• Increase the limit to 150-200 animals for wishlists
• Remove abc animals that are very likely to come to the game
• Have separate wishlists for birds, aquariums and exhibit animals
• Enforce the 100 limit, making sure people understand every choice has to be an essential animal for you
• Remove flying birds and aquatic animals as we don't know if that's coming to the game

None of the options are really ideal but something needs to be figured out.

option d is perfect for both the user and the makers because even if the users dont like it it will make the list overall better quality. option b would also be good except then we run into the issue of what is an abc animal because depending who you ask that changes wildly with only maybe 10 or so animals being globally accepted as important.

The difference between 100 and 200 isnt double the amount of work a list takes grows almost exponentially based on length trust me I have worked with lists over 200 animals in length the longer the list gets the more work each individual entry becomes because it will have a higher rate of new animals that.

Planet zoo 1 has 195 animals your saying that you cannot comfortably summarise what you would expect from the start of a zoo game in the same amount of animals that took frontier 5 years to make. 50 - 100 animals is perfect yes it will be hard to narrow down your list to that many but what it does do is show priorities and what is essential to a zoo game it will make the data collected more useful and representative of what the community actually thinks is important to a zoo game.