He flies hotas, as do I, we both use the same cz ship, only I have a rail in the belly where he has the extra frag. My current cz record is 30 seconds slower than that, but it hasn't been long since we've been competing at this particular art, I expect one of us will crack 8 minutes during the next war. Interestingly my technique is different, I use boost bleed to keep myself where I want to be. o7
Avoiding the Joust in Combat
- Thread starter CMDR Nechtain
- Start date
This. Jousting actually plays to FDL's strengths, while jousting in an Eagle is a terrible idea. Use the tactics that match the ship and build.
All due respect to Mr. Jones, I love his videos, but most of them are over two years old. I tried his technique when I started out and was frustrated that I couldn't match it as well.
I'm pretty sure the reason is the NPC's have "gotten better" since then, AI wise. The drop speed, trust maneuver behind only works on the lowest rank large ships. Everything else just
immediately boost away and FA/off flips around.
I found that wide arc thrust strafing to be more effective these days. FA/off of course.
X.
Looking at these combat threads and videos for quite some time now, I come to think, the ideal way to learn would be to have a copilot on the guns who mastered the flight aspects already, and who is shouting at you commands what to do.... 2 PIP SYS..... THROTTLE DOWN!.... FA OFF thrusters up.... UP NOT DOWN!!! .... kind that drill seargent style. 
Do that for a while and your all set to continue finetuning these skills on your own.
Just a guess....
Do that for a while and your all set to continue finetuning these skills on your own.Just a guess....
Why bother. Once you figure out they 'll add more cheese to the NPC and move the goalposts anyway. Back the a hefty amount of lateral thrust would land you in a reasonable and explicable manoeuver fight. With engineers it's become a tedious exercise.
Don't avoid the joust. Embrace the joust. This is what 6DOF space combat is. There's no "getting on the six and staying there", it's all a big waste of energy to get all fixated on getting behind your opponent. Sure, sometimes you can fool an NPC into a circling match if you can keep them from panic boosting away, but mostly it's just a matter of "how do I minimize the time I spend in your danger zone while I maximize the time you spend in mine?" And you can do that in so many ways other than trying to kiss somebody's thrusters. Besides, distance is a factor to the danger zone as well; Am I flying eff PAs or SRB rails? Non-LR lasers, cytos? Or maybe I'm running a phasing pulse setup or a LR rail boat. Missiles, torpedoes? How is my opponent outfitted? It all changes the distance and position where you want to be, sometimes even during a single fight.
As for jousting specifically -- I think the following two videos make for an interesting study. The first video is CMDR deZpe vs CMDR Tomski, both flying FdLs. The second video is the same duel from a 3rd person perspective, as witnessed by CMDR Sundance1976.
It's quite dynamic actually, not quite so back-and-forth as it may appear from the first person perspective.
Also worth mentioning I would really enjoy the earlier versions of space dust. Or maybe it's some shader fx shenanigans, in which case I'd very much like to learn how it's done. Check the third video for evidence how 3D the combat actually is, when you can easily see the ship's current vector in the dense space dust visualization.
Source: https://youtu.be/NSN3-lDHX90
Source: https://youtu.be/EJoix-WZzMI
Source: https://youtu.be/PHjzzWSjx6k
As for jousting specifically -- I think the following two videos make for an interesting study. The first video is CMDR deZpe vs CMDR Tomski, both flying FdLs. The second video is the same duel from a 3rd person perspective, as witnessed by CMDR Sundance1976.
It's quite dynamic actually, not quite so back-and-forth as it may appear from the first person perspective.
Also worth mentioning I would really enjoy the earlier versions of space dust. Or maybe it's some shader fx shenanigans, in which case I'd very much like to learn how it's done. Check the third video for evidence how 3D the combat actually is, when you can easily see the ship's current vector in the dense space dust visualization.
Jousting is mostly a result of what ship you fly (specifically how heavy it is), how hard you pull on the stick (max pitch = pushes you into a drift) and how good your thrusters are.
Back when game was new a lot of people decreed that Cobra was better than Viper in combat.
However the Cobra is heavy and tends to ‘skid out’ on hard maneuvers. Try it yourself. Fly full speed ahead and do a hard 180 by pitching up. Cobra is guaranteed to skid out, lose speed (becomes stationary) then accelerates again.
Viper, at least a Viper with good thrusters, can maintain a smooth 180 turn without skidding out.
This also happens to NPCs. They blast past you then pitch hard to turn around, end up ‘skidding’ and turn directly towards you, thus putting you into a joust.
To avoid this you need a nimble ship that can maintain turn, and you need to initiate the turn BEFORE the opponent passes you. If you wait until the merge (when both pass eachother) then he is already pitching’n’skidding (like you might be too) and et voila, back to jousting.
The key to avoid jousting is lead pursuit, not lag pursuit. Lag pursuit, where you put the nose on, or behind, your target so you stay or enter a position behind them works when you are in a fighter jet in atmospheric conditions and have to maintain forward momentum to avoid crashing.
Space is not atmospheric.
Spaceships do not need to maintain forward momentum.
You want to be in a lead pursuit, keeping nose ahead of your targets movement vector to ensure you stay close and ontop of them. Sure, this means you might overshoot them but that is something you have to figure out based on experience to find the right timing on turns and knowing how tight your ship can turn before losing speed or skidding.
Back when game was new a lot of people decreed that Cobra was better than Viper in combat.
However the Cobra is heavy and tends to ‘skid out’ on hard maneuvers. Try it yourself. Fly full speed ahead and do a hard 180 by pitching up. Cobra is guaranteed to skid out, lose speed (becomes stationary) then accelerates again.
Viper, at least a Viper with good thrusters, can maintain a smooth 180 turn without skidding out.
This also happens to NPCs. They blast past you then pitch hard to turn around, end up ‘skidding’ and turn directly towards you, thus putting you into a joust.
To avoid this you need a nimble ship that can maintain turn, and you need to initiate the turn BEFORE the opponent passes you. If you wait until the merge (when both pass eachother) then he is already pitching’n’skidding (like you might be too) and et voila, back to jousting.
The key to avoid jousting is lead pursuit, not lag pursuit. Lag pursuit, where you put the nose on, or behind, your target so you stay or enter a position behind them works when you are in a fighter jet in atmospheric conditions and have to maintain forward momentum to avoid crashing.
Space is not atmospheric.
Spaceships do not need to maintain forward momentum.
You want to be in a lead pursuit, keeping nose ahead of your targets movement vector to ensure you stay close and ontop of them. Sure, this means you might overshoot them but that is something you have to figure out based on experience to find the right timing on turns and knowing how tight your ship can turn before losing speed or skidding.
Npcs will turn and focus and fight you only when you start shooting at them, even in combat zones. So beginning of fight should be you getting as close as possible before engaging.
I fly FA off except when trying to break or accelerate fast (FA on is faster for that), so constantly going between on and off in fights (with that annoying proximity alert always covering the on off indicator...). If you manage to get close, Npcs will turn and it's easy to follow them after. Their fixed weapons will always miss.
If you constantly look for the weaker target, combat zones become easy, you kill a ship then look for the next one already being attacked.
My weak spot is using fixed weapons will FA off, still bad at that so mostly using gimbals.
I fly FA off except when trying to break or accelerate fast (FA on is faster for that), so constantly going between on and off in fights (with that annoying proximity alert always covering the on off indicator...). If you manage to get close, Npcs will turn and it's easy to follow them after. Their fixed weapons will always miss.
If you constantly look for the weaker target, combat zones become easy, you kill a ship then look for the next one already being attacked.
My weak spot is using fixed weapons will FA off, still bad at that so mostly using gimbals.
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If you really want to learn,
start using faoff in simple settings: orbit a station, orbit a nav beacon, land in stations, outposts, ... . When that's done (weeks, months) ask again and folks will help.
This vid should help (5 episodes)
When you feel comfortable in faoff (not at the level of pvp but day to day tasks) I or others here can point you to much more knowledgeable folks who can teach you (my in game name is zeta you can friend me)
For me that point of comfort came when I could consistently solo the pirate wing assassination mission in a small ship faoff:
I could tell you that you should do an faoff preturn (which I can do once in a while whereas pvp veterans do it with ease all the time) when an NPC jousts you, but Aashenfox is right, NPCs don't really joust you, they react to your joust that looks like a joust. The opponent having 'second boost' in general is a quick way to get your behind served to you on a platter in pvp, bit like jiu jitsu.
You can verify this easily. Get a medium npc opponent, like asp exploer). Before shooting, disable all axis except pitch. Set faoff. Shoot npc. Thrust down and a little forward or backward to slowly let npc approach you. If you don't boost, the npc will keep coming closer and at last moment pitches up. You can pitch up and try to follow it with vertical/lateral/fwd/bwd) thrusters and pitch only.
You should be in a ship that has strong thrusters in all directions, you can do this in an unengineered build, but then have lightweight eagle or viper with enhanced performance thrusters vs a sluggis medium (but u might die quickly). Or you engineer an fdl/pm2/chieftain/fas.
When you practice faoff, it's important to do exercises where you don't not use boost initially because it is too powerful (your agility multiplies), you won't pick up on nuances but you will pick up plenty of bad habits.
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I am not sure if anyone replied to you question regarding spacedust and don't have the time to read thru the thread, so here is a link on how to install EDHM, that allows you to set spacedust as you wish, runs on linux too.
If you cannot find it on the gui, they have a discord and are very helpful:
Join the EDHM + UI (Elite Dangerous Hud Mod) Discord Server!
EDHM is a mod for the space game Elite Dangerous, this mod lets you to customize your ship's HUD colors and many more. | 8700 members
I hate to say this because it is "clever use of game mechanics" but an slf NPC, irrespective of their current brokeness serves as a distraction to NPC opponents that mildly confuses the AI and allows you to obtain better position frequently. I use a Thrustmaster T1600 M with throttle, and always G5 DD engineering. The throttle can get sticky without the application of the appropriate silicone grease, but it has helped my combat quite a bit. Setting one of the joystick buttons to toggle FA off and on will allow for better control - you do have to learn when to toggle, or the FA off yields no benefit.
Indeed - I fly an X56 with enough extra axes to to lateral/vertical thust analog and it makes a HUGE difference to my FA-off ability.
It's very simple to avoid jousting NPCs. It helps to have a ship with strong vertical thrusters, like Chieftain or Vulture, but works in any ship. When the enemy is coming towards you, hold your downthruster and pitch up to keep pointing at them. Use the throttle both forwards and backwards to keep a nice distance for shooting. When you do that, they cannot get behind you. If you use a HOTAS, make sure you set the throttle to full range because you cannot control it sufficiently with a button to reverse direction unless you have exceptional skill.
You can see it here at 28:36. Watch the space dust to see how I'm thrusting down while the Sidewinder charges in, but has to stay in front of me all the time, then at 29:15 with the diamondback, then at 29:30 with the FAS and so on:
Another trick is to use any SLF with fixed weapon flown by your NPC crew if you want to use a larger ship. You set the SLF on the target and wait for it to land a shot before opening fire yourself, then the NPC starts trying to shoot at the dancing SLF, while you can shoot it from the side to do max damage to the hull and PP.
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TBF that is a competent sidey in a res zone, not a dangerous, deadly, elite opponent in a cz. The strategy is valid, but I believed a poster asked for a CZ video example.
It works everywhere. That was the only video I had to show the technique. Later in the video are a load of competent ships - cobras, vipers, vultures, dropships, FAS, etc. You can see it's the same for all of them. The guy was asking how to deal with jousting, not general combat techniques.