Avoiding the Joust in Combat

[CMDR Nechtain]

Thanks for the input folks. Since posting, I have watched a few more vids, including this VJ video. While it doesn't deal with CZs (where your target is more often than not focussed solely on you, rather than you and the SDFs) and deals with engineered ships, it's very useful for my purposes, so thought I'd post it here in case it helps anyone else.

It's shown me that the thing I really struggle with is when NPCs carry out what he calls the "reverse turn". It seems I need to get significantly closer to limit the turning space and just keep doing what I'm doing. When rev turns threaten to get away from me, I need to introduce a couple of boosts into my pips/downthrust/FA-off/pitch cycle mentioned above.

Oh, and engineer and practice... Thanks again all.

 

[Sylow]

That's because they just try to face you while you are probably trying to face them and get behind them at the same time.

To a large degree this, yes.

Also, i tend to hit FAOff and pull into the target a few seconds before the enemy passes me by. I loose a few seconds of face time there, but generally end up having my guns on them while they are still turning towards me again.

As NPCs like to apply reverse thrust in such a situation, I fail to stay behind most ships, but i can reduce exposure time a little while having more time to fire at a targets larger top/side profile.

The real good combat pilots sure have better aces up their sleeves, but i find this a simple enough thing to do and it does help once you have it down. For sure it breaks the pure jousting circle.

 

[d8veh]

Easiest solution is to get a fully engineered Corvette with SCBs, then let them try and face-tank you.

I'm getting a bit annoyed in my mining Cutter. The Pirates in their Cobras come charging past whilst chaffing, and by the time I can face them, they're 4km away. They then repeat ad nauseam. If they're shields go down, they wait out of range until they're back on again. The whole thing is very tedious. What's worse is that they're always in a wing of three. Can't FD roll back the AI to like it was in version 1.8, where the NPCs would just roll around aimlessly while you blew them to pieces? Do you remember those FDLs that would knock your shields out, get your hull down to 30%, then just sit in front of you spinning while you destroyed them?

 

[DragonIV]

I'm getting a bit annoyed in my mining Cutter. The Pirates in their Cobras come charging past whilst chaffing, and by the time I can face them, they're 4km away. They then repeat ad nauseam. If they're shields go down, they wait out of range until they're back on again. The whole thing is very tedious. What's worse is that they're always in a wing of three.

For me, they're almost always lower rank and thus paper tigers. I have a bunch of burst turrets that shred them as they go by. Many don't survive the first pass.

Higher level enemies, I just low wake, it's faster than slogging it out with them in this non-optimal-for-fighting-craft.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

Hiya folks. Looking for a bit of combat advice.

I'm currently fighting in CZs and looking to use the experience to improve my dogfighting. I've looked at the combat tutorials in Alec's Best of the Forums and am aware of the importance (per Vindicator Jones) of staying above and behind your target, or at least in a dominant position, before engaging. I'm confident with the theory behind the thruster control needed to circle strafe, I have macros set up to switch pips to ENG when out of position, and have worked on the technique in RESes.

However, as soon as I attempt to put this into practice in a CZ, I just cannot get behind my target. I'll start in the correct position but as soon as I fire on them they turn on me, I can't hold them in place, and it turns into a face-to-face joust. I put pips to ENG, attempt to thruster down, FA-off and pitch up as they pass, to get back in position, but by the time I'm facing them, they're facing me too.

What am I missing? CZs are turning into a bit of a tedious grind. I'm in an un-engineered FDL but all modules A-grade for manoeuvrability. Is it only possible to circle-strafe with engineered modules or is can I further improve my techinique?

Any help welcome.

this is everything which is wrong with "balance" or NPC ship PVE combat right now, it dont matter how much FAO you can pull off or g5 DD because the NPC will still joust or strafe with you regardless especially at "elite" level NPC, which is even more of a joke if your in an eagle and them a corvette ?!?!?!?

Option 1 - face tank them and reverski
Option 2 - ram em
Option 3 - Ram them again!

neither of which will help you improve for PVP though but will quickly dispatch the npc.

 

[rrobes]

That's because they just try to face you while you are probably trying to face them and get behind them at the same time.

Not necessarily, usually my ship velocity is quite low. I'm pitching up w/ thrusters F/A Off (because NPCs go over not under most of the time) and there they are, facing me, before I can finish my maneuver.

 

[Bigmaec]

Easiest solution is to get a fully engineered Corvette with SCBs, then let them try and face-tank you.

I'm getting a bit annoyed in my mining Cutter. The Pirates in their Cobras come charging past whilst chaffing, and by the time I can face them, they're 4km away. They then repeat ad nauseam. If they're shields go down, they wait out of range until they're back on again. The whole thing is very tedious. What's worse is that they're always in a wing of three. Can't FD roll back the AI to like it was in version 1.8, where the NPCs would just roll around aimlessly while you blew them to pieces? Do you remember those FDLs that would knock your shields out, get your hull down to 30%, then just sit in front of you spinning while you destroyed them?

Can't you just reverski out of the field?

 

[Amanojaku]

Keep in mind that video may have been made before Fdev buffed npc AI. From what I've seen the AI got a very significant buff a couple years ago. Apparently the AI was so bad before, there wasn't much of a challenge. I can't remember exactly when this buff happened. I'd have to look it up again as I just remember seeing it a few months back looking for something else.

 

[Armyofducks]

Reverski thrust manoeuvre.

 

[Stinja]

Try doing pirate lord missions. You get a single NPC ship to concentrate on, and they only have you too, so it gives you a place to practice 1v1 (turn off crimes so no coppers turn up). eg:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3F15fl5its


I point my nose off the end of their engines, and try to be around 500-800m away, using throttle and thrusters. While i can FAoff, it depends on the ship, and mostly i use it for enhanced turning when needed. Against NPCs i often dont bother.
While I can't stay right behind them, i'm in their rear arc, so they can't generally get main weapons to bear.
I'm not a pro, just mucking about (probably somewhat drunk) to show a mate who thought small ships can't kill NPC big ships.

I've done the wing assassination missions in the Cobra MK3 too, but that's a lot of work, with lots of running and chipping at distance. Not recommended except to say it's possible.

CZs are different, as one can ball up a load of friendlies, and then gank enemies as they spawn. So you're not really needing to dogfight so much.

 

[Ezren]

For me I consider the ability to change direction extremely important for avoiding the joust - sticking close is what really does it. I usually use the approach of FA-off as we head toward each other, follow up as they pass over, FA-on and throttle after them. Changing momentum from forward to backwards-and-up is where the catch is.

Throttle control is probably the most tempting thing about getting a full flight stick setup, for me.

 

[d8veh]

Can't you just reverski out of the field?

There's always two behind shooting and one in front out of range. When you reverski to get the one charging in, the other two go behind again. The one charging in boosts in from out of range chaffing, so turrets don't work. Anything bigger than a Cobra, I just ram, but the Cobras can always dodge me, and when you miss, it takes a long time to stop the Cutter. I always get them in the end, but it's very tedious when I just want to get on with my mining.

 

[Dirtbird]

If you ship is much more maneuverable than your target (e.g. Vulture, Cobra, Eagle vs Anaconda, Corvette, Cutter, Python), then you can certainly avoid jousting. it requires you to fly using your lateral and vertical thrusters to give your ship its main "velocity" and the main thrusters are used to control distance.
Example here:

Source: https://youtu.be/EVDbiwK10qE


I can pull this off against most large ships in a Krait Mk II, but if I end up facing anything more maneuverable (e.g. Vulture vs Chieftain or Krait vs FAS) it ends up turning into varying degrees of jousting. I have not figured how to avoid that yet, but in the mean time I just roll with it and kill them anyway.

In a small ship, I would try to avoid making it a battle of attrition where you basically sandpaper them to death because the larger ships usually have some small weapon that can chip away at your ship.

 

[GunnerBill]

Try to avoid boosting. NPCs seem to respond to that by boosting immediately themselves.

 

[Sir Wintermute]

a boost helps if you have enough thumbs/fingers to hit it.

Try setting Boost to Click Left Stick.

 

[Frank]

^ This is not true and has been stated by the AI coder many times. They favour eng pips, contrary to most players, especially at mid levels. Their pip management gets very good at high levels.

On topic, embrace the joust! Seriously if you find you can't avoid the joust, use high burst weapons on the pass, it's a fun way to fight as well.

Yep. Fighting in a CZ is more like Star Trek combat than Star Wars. I've had times when I've found in necessary to get behind an NPC that had taken an interest in me, but that was when I was in my Gu-97 Imperial Fighter. If that's the style of combat you enjoy then I'd suggest you practise using that SLF. But any type of "get behind the enemy" fighter isn't going to help you when you've got four or five ships shooting at you

 

[Aashenfox]

This is not aimed at OP, who wisely asked for advice, it's at the others who say this is the NPC's fault, it is not...

...and it's hilarious to see people who can't 'combat' their way out of a wet paper bag giving advice. Staying 'ON' (there's no such thing as 'behind' in 6dof space) your opponent requires advanced flight skills and excellent throttle management.

The NPCs are not cheating.
The NPCs are not doing anything except try to stay 'ON' you.
The NPCs are not trying to get behind you.
The NPCs are not trying to joust you. When you joust, that's YOU doing that.

(not my video, a squadron member)

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsDXIEBsHFk


Yes, it takes discipline, patience and practice. LEARN IT and stop whining.

 

[Armyofducks]

On Xbox I have down and up thrust set to the right thumbstick. In combat, I thrust down and pitch up at the same time, with the throttle in the blue. This to me is the most 'consistent' method of turning quickly whilst kind-of strafing downwards, a boost helps if you have enough thumbs/fingers to hit it.

How do you have throttle set? I've got it on the triggers, helps a lot with FA off.

Also FA off gets to be pretty essential after while. Not so much on my Vulture but on anything bigger like a chieftain or FGS they feel like container ships with FA on

 

[CMDR Harada]

...and it's hilarious to see people who can't 'combat' their way out of a wet paper bag giving advice. Staying 'ON' (there's no such thing as 'behind' in 6dof space) your opponent requires advanced flight skills and excellent throttle management.

The NPCs are not cheating.
The NPCs are not doing anything except try to stay 'ON' you.
The NPCs are not trying to get behind you.
The NPCs are not trying to joust you. When you joust, that's YOU doing that.

Yes, it takes discipline, patience and practice. LEARN IT and stop whining.

Wow, a clip of a very good pilot. Lots to learn there for almost anyone : Throttle control, PIPs management.. all spot on, and NONE of it stayed static. I wish I could see how he was using the thrusters, the ship setup, and what his physical setup was. Joystick/HOTAS or Mouse/Keyboard ?

We have VIDEO PROOF that some of the veterans here CAN do incredible things. But you have to think about it, and assume its an issue credits, a better ship, and engineering can't fix. LOOK at those videos. Not at the enemy ship and pew-pew.. Look at the PIPs and throttle ( like the example above ).. Thats the true path to victory.

I'll go slightly off topic here : ED is NOT a flight sim. I looks like one, and you can play it that way and get by, but it's not at it's heart. Learning to pull off moves like that video clip requires a LOT of practice. You have to refine your control setup ( keyboard macros, and control mappings ). A bigger ship and engineering will mask your shortcomings as a pilot by giving your more margin ( shields, hull, and DPS ) against the NPCs, but it won't fix your lack of skillz. I know from personal experience, when my 20 minute old Corvette got shot out from under me by NPCs. I had to analyze WHY.. was the ship not capable ? False. Were the NPCs cheating ? False. Lag ? PC not fast enough ? Bad connection ? All bad assumptions. The issue had to do with PILOTING ( risk assesment, skills, and technique ). I had to get better.

 

[Old Duck]

Another way to avoid the joist is to fly in a wing of two or more. An enemy can only joist one ship at a time (assuming you're not flying in a literal wing formation).