ship interiors - will they happen

I'm talking about the frustration of getting shot in the back of the head mid dogfight.
There will most likely not be "boarding limpets", agreed.
Yet Ship Interiors would still be EXTREMELY awesome for the countless other features they very much could have.

The core question is, is it possible to make a limited product that is satisfying and much used? Think about Odyssey settlements as they currently are for expectations.
Yes.
In this case, very easily in fact.
There are a lot of concepts to prove that.

And before you ask:
So why haven't they done them yet?
Well, for the same reason the ice-cream machines at MC became a meme.
Bad decisions.
=> Which is why humble CMDRs like some of us here are vocal about it,
in the hopes for better decisions.
 
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There are a lot of concepts to prove that.
Lots of concepts, yes, but most of them have problems. Boarding mid-flight being a great and pertinent example.

That's the biggest problem. There are vastly more ideas than good ideas, and nobody likes being told their idea won't work, even if it's for a perfectly rational reason.
 
Lots of concepts, yes, but most of them have problems. Boarding mid-flight being a great and pertinent example.

That's the biggest problem. There are vastly more ideas than good ideas, and nobody likes being told their idea won't work, even if it's for a perfectly rational reason.

Certain features of Ship Interiors desired by some of the too "optimistic" are most certainly so, yes.
But not Ship Interiors themselvs.

Behold: Even I came up with an extremely simple concept which checks every box while being extremely easy and cheap to implement;

Give us up to three rooms and a loading-screen elevator to enter them.
-Machine Room [Every Ship must have] (So we have something to repair and thus replay)
-Personal Quarter [for any >= medium Ship] (An additional room for decoration)
-Special Room [for any large Ship] (E.g. Lookout-Deck for the Anaconda)
Allow us to decorate them and feel free to hide a lot of decorations behind the Arx-Store.


EVA would go hand-in-hand with this but it is another story really,
so the only final question would be on whether or not to keep the Blue Circle and Ca-Ching $
 
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I'm talking about the frustration of getting shot in the back of the head mid dogfight.
Point Defense = Top priority to shoot boarding limpets, 100% guaranteed not to have uninvited visitors. Same with ECM, to leave wanna be captors drifting in space. Also, these limpets could require shields to be down to even be used. And they should probably be very slow compared to any ship, because there is a human inside and it's not a comfy ride with inertial dampeners or whatever else ships have, so you would have another mechanic to avoid getting them onboard. You could also shoot them down with you weapons or just ram them - a little tut should be more than enough.

That means, if you are in a dogfight your ship is moving, and you can use defense modules = not possible to board. If your ship is disabled to the point of not moving and defense modules not working - you're already done, but this boarding action can give you a chance to get back at your attackers by getting out of the seat (ship would be disabled anyway) and shooting them in their head. Or launching self-destruct to take them with you.

No problems, pure gameplay.

The core question is, is it possible to make a limited product that is satisfying and much used?
Yes, looks like it.

Various gameplay ideas have their difficult parts to figure out. That's the nature of the beast. That is the job of designers/developers to come up with gameplay and solutions to implement it. We are here just to throw ideas around and speculate on possible solutions. So far everything seems reasonable.

Boarding limpets are just one of the possible gameplay additions, but even that, if developers would want to do it, has good solutions that do not require reinventing the wheel and as you can see above - they have a reasonable possibilities to work.

I hope that was enough to illustrate how boarding is not as scary of a beast as it may looks like on the first glance. Is there any other gameplay features you think are problematic?
 
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The concept was very popular, the implementation wasn’t.
So as long as Frontier don't implement ship interiors, they should stay popular too?

If your ship is disabled to the point of not moving and defense modules not working
Sure. But in that case Frontier could have already implemented NPC boarding of our ships, and we'd never know.

NPCs don't subtarget modules deliberately, so being immobilised but not destroyed by them is really unlikely.
- the typical shieldless freighter is going to lose hull before it loses engine integrity almost every time
- a shielded player can generally escape a fight long before the point of taking serious module damage
- an engineered ship is even more invincible
- a missile-heavy loadout on the NPC might do it but they generally don't fit that many missiles and it weakens their ability to drop your shields in the first place if they do

I haven't taken significant module damage in a fight with NPCs for years. Even the fights I've lost I've never come close to being disabled by the NPCs: I've either escaped with a few percent of remaining hull or died, but either way with engines perfectly intact on ships without any MRPs.

So getting to the point where being disabled and boarded by NPCs is something you don't have to specifically arrange would require so many changes to combat balance (all of them making it more difficult) that the interiors component isn't necessarily the hard bit.

More practical in terms of actually seeing the content once in a while would be to make being boarded something which happens while you're docked - perhaps as a mission side-effect, so that it can just be deemed to have happened, but also can be avoided - and then they only reveal themselves while you're in flight.
 
Point Defense = Top priority to shoot boarding limpets, 100% guaranteed not to have uninvited visitors. Same with ECM, to leave wanna be captors drifting in space. Also, these limpets could require shields to be down to even be used. And they should probably be very slow compared to any ship, because there is a human inside and it's not a comfy ride with inertial dampeners or whatever else ships have, so you would have another mechanic to avoid getting them onboard. You could also shoot them down with you weapons or just ram them - a little tut should be more than enough.
[...]
I hope that was enough to illustrate how boarding is not as scary of a beast as it may looks like on the first glance. Is there any other gameplay features you think are problematic?

Forget boarding player ships. It's not only problematic, it's outright impossible to implement, because it's uttely incompatible with existing game mechanics.
In case you did not notice, other players' ships immediately cease to exist in your instance as soon as they have self destructed / disconnected / combat logged.

Why spend tons of dev time implementing a feature nobody could possibly use because the only logical expectation would be the sudden disappearance of the very ship you are trying to board?

Even if they do not clog, they can still be laggy as hell. Imagine the boarded ship rubberbanding multiple kms under your feet. :)
 
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NPCs don't subtarget modules deliberately, so being immobilised but not destroyed by them is really unlikely.
  • the typical shieldless freighter is going to lose hull before it loses engine integrity almost every time
  • a shielded player can generally escape a fight long before the point of taking serious module damage
  • an engineered ship is even more invincible
  • a missile-heavy loadout on the NPC might do it but they generally don't fit that many missiles and it weakens their ability to drop your shields in the first place if they do
Indeed. That's why I don't see how there could be anything annoying about players being boarded in flight, as it is very very unlikely.

So getting to the point where being disabled and boarded by NPCs is something you don't have to specifically arrange would require so many changes to combat balance (all of them making it more difficult) that the interiors component isn't necessarily the hard bit.
I'm not sure if DemiserofD initially meant only combat with NPCs or PvP too, but even in PvP scenario - it is highly unlikely that there would be any hull left after all the shooting to disable thrusters, pd or pp and then ram/bumps to make ship stop. And even if something like that is to happen - it's going to be a bit of fun as the certain end at that point is going to be inevitable. I don't see even a remotely realistic possibility of that happening in PvP aside from specifically arranged events.

More practical in terms of actually seeing the content once in a while would be to make being boarded something which happens while you're docked - perhaps as a mission side-effect, so that it can just be deemed to have happened, but also can be avoided - and then they only reveal themselves while you're in flight.
Yep, boarding would require some form of arranged conditions - a mission that takes you to a signal source with abandoned / disabled / derelict ship or wreck, random signal sources (rescue, looting...), etc - basically it's mainly for the player to do the boarding.

As for when player can be boarded - something like an encounter with Thargoids, when player ship is disabled by the pulse and the boarded by aliens or zombi-humans. Or maybe when docked in anarchy settlements there could be a chance of 'pirates' trying to board your ship, something like a mission side-effect similar to those pirates spawning in space, as you've said.

Hmmm, could be very fun :D
 
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Forget boarding player ships. It's not only problematic, it's outright impossible to implement ...
That was the point. DemiserofD sees boarding as a problem for the player, while with how game works and with what it can provide - it simply cannot be a problem.

Why spend tons of dev time implementing a feature nobody could possibly use because the only logical expectation would be the sudden disappearance of the very ship you are trying to board?
If you mean PvP boarding - then it's not even close to be a main thing, and it can't be with how the game works. But possibility to do it in a very arranged manner could be a side effect of the main boarding gameplay - with NPCs/environment.

Even if they do not clog, they can still be laggy as hell. Imagine the boarded ship rubberbanding multiple kms under your feet. :)
Could be trippy :D
 
I don't exactly see those as upsides. You've explained why it would be impossible in most cases, and therefore it's 'not a problem'. But being impossible in most cases also means it's not worth implementing. If you implement it in a limited fashion, players will complain about not being able to do it, without considering the problems it would cause. It's a lose/lose. Implementing it just makes people less happy.

Another problem is that if you add interior content, it can't just be for itself. Decorating your interior is a very niche subset of the playerbase, not worth doing things for on its own. You need a way for it to interact with the broader game, but without detracting from the broader game.

Internal Repairs

For example, doing internal ship repairs COULD work - but what if it's not very fun? Some players just won't enjoy it by default. It could be fine to do every so often, but if it provides real gameplay benefits, like being able to explore without an AFMU, then players will feel compelled to do it, regardless of whether they want to. Then you've basically just added a new unfun minigame for players to do, against their will, instead of the existing and perfectly decent gameplay loop we already have.

Ideally, ship interiors would add entirely new content, which doesn't severely impact other aspects of the game players already like - but there are very few options for that. The only one I can imagine is on-foot engineering, diving deeper into exobiology.

Exobiology Lab and Gardening

I explored that idea here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...-a-potential-niche-for-ship-interiors.634436/

But to sum up, the basic idea was that all exobiology samples would become randomized engineering materials, but with unknown effects. Players would need to do experiments on them in an internal lab, where they could discover new effects that could then be applied to their armor or weapons. These labs would have windows looking out over the planet in most cases, creating a warm and bright 'home' to run home to, out in the Black. Players could also grow samples of plants in an internal garden, for both re-usable benefits as well as aesthetics.

This is the only niche I can see that has not yet been well exploited, that wouldn't get in the way of other gameplay loops, and would actually expand gameplay rather than making good things worse.

But is that enough for players? I doubt it. After all, my post saw literally no interest.
 
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If you implement it in a limited fashion
It shouldn't be implemented in any limited fashion. It can be implemented in the fullest it can be with the rest of the mechanics of the game. But there is absolutely no reason to change all other mechanics just to have easy NPC boarding player ships all the time, because as you've said - it would be annoying.

players will complain about not being able to do it
There will always be a possibility to do it. But the chances of success in a random situation are close to none with how the game work. In missions / signal sources / events arranged for that - not a problem, and the player would expect it, both to do it and to be on a receiving end. And players can do it with other players in the same arranged manner too. So "not being able" doesn't look like a thing, it's more of being unlikely aside from situations where player explicitly agree to it.

With how majority of players in Elite are - I don't see how there could be many complains that one player cannot easily force other player into a boarding action. And if somebody wants for NPCs to do it to them - the can go for it easily. If they don't want it - it won't happen.

There is really not that much to complain about even if someone would be hell bend on doing it.

Implementing it just makes people less happy.
Nahh, people are going to have fun!

But being impossible in most cases also means it's not worth implementing.
It is worth it. Because it is mainly for the player to do the boarding action, with all the gameplay options it provides. As for player being boarded - maybe as an encounter/event with Thargoids described in the message above - will be fun for a lot of players.

Decorating your interior is a very niche subset of the playerbase, not worth doing things for on its own.
Yeah, that's a bad assumption. Every MMO that sells cosmetics survives / earns / profits because of players who decorate things. But I do agree, on it's own, just as a space for decorations - not worth it, because players need to do something with it, be in it, to want to decorate it and then change previous decoration for new ones. That is why there must be gameplay and there are plenty of ideas and possibilities for it.

but without detracting from the broader game.
That is one of the main good things about interiors - if there is an option to teleport out/in - the feature won't detract from anything, and if players don't want that part of the gameplay they can completely avoid it, while at the same time it can be available to the fullest to players who want to enjoy it.

For example, doing internal ship repairs COULD work - but what if it's not very fun?
Well, not very fun for one player and very fun for another. It's not possible to make everything very fun for everybody. Just like not every player likes combat, or exploration, or hauling... it's ok.

It could be fine to do every so often, but if it provides real gameplay benefits, like being able to explore without an AFMU, then players will feel compelled to do it, regardless of whether they want to.
That's how beneficial features work - they give benefits to be compelling. On top of that, AMFU doesn't add any mass, works conveniently from the menu and exploration ships don't really suffer from shortage of slots aside from a very few "but I want to do it in that ship" scenarios. So there is a parity, either player wants more immersion in they gameplay (manual repairs) or more convenience (AMFU).

against their will, instead of the existing and perfectly decent gameplay loop we already have.
wow, wow, wow, nobody is forcing anybody against any will. AMFU is there, second option for repair minigame is just that - another option to consider. Otherwise with your logic it means that right now players are forced to use AMFU? C'mon.

Ideally, ship interiors would add entirely new content, which doesn't severely impact other aspects of the game players already
That is exactly what ship interiors can do, and what majority of ideas here are about.

but there are very few options for that.
There are a lot. Especially if, just like a base mechanic for gameplay on planets is ability to walk around a planet, there would be EVA to access all the possible gameplay for interiors in space.

The only one I can imagine is on-foot engineering, diving deeper into exobiology.
Delve deeper into this thread - it'll expand your imagination.

I explored that idea here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...-a-potential-niche-for-ship-interiors.634436/

But to sum up, the basic idea was that all exobiology samples would become randomized engineering materials, but with unknown effects. Players would need to do experiments on them in an internal lab, where they could discover new effects that could then be applied to their armor or weapons. These labs would have windows looking out over the planet in most cases, creating a warm and bright 'home' to run home to, out in the Black. Players could also grow samples of plants in an internal garden, for both re-usable benefits as well as aesthetics.
See, you are into exo-bio and deeper gameplay/connection with engineering, and also into having a place you can call 'home' in the game. In the same way there are a lot of players who would like to make their ship much more of a home then it already is, with ability to enter/exit it (EVA) and all the gameplay that it can provide.

But is that enough for players? I doubt it. After all, my post saw literally no interest.
I would assume it's because many players would see all that as a one part of the whole 'Base Building', and on it's own it is probably too niche. But as a part of building a lab in your base to have that gameplay - it is interesting. It could be fun for ship interiors, although it looks like a better fit for a base.
 
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Delve deeper into this thread - it'll expand your imagination.
Much the contrary, the more I think about ship interiors, the more problems I find. And trust me, I've been one of the most active people on these forums for something like 5 years; I've seen suggestion after suggestion after suggestion. Almost universally, people tell me to use my imagination, and it's almost universally because they don't want to(or are unable to) actually come up with suggestions that can actually meet the needed criteria.   The problems of Interiors have nothing to do with imagination, and everything to do with not breaking the rest of the game. There are very few places where you can actually use interiors for anything that doesn't cause more problems than it solves.   There is a simple conceptual flaw with all mid-flight interior ideas, and that's the fact that Elite ships are the SIZE of buildings, but BEHAVE like fighter jets. A game like Sea of Thieves is vastly better for 'interior' content, because ships there are much smaller AND much less agile. You can afford to release the steering wheel there, to repair the mast, or put out fires, or bail out water, because you can do those things and get back to your steering wheel before anything important happens. The same cannot be said about Elite. In Elite, if you release the sticks for even a brief moment, you can and will get pip-checked and probably lose the fight. That alone instantly invalidates ALL mid-flight interior content.  That leaves only content usable either while docked, or while in Supercruise - but SCO has basically invalidated supercruise as an option, as well. And most of the remaining options are invalidated while in habitable space, like repairs, because it'll almost always be faster and better to just dock at a station, instead of doing repairs yourself.   So now we're limited to just content that can work while landed and without any stations nearby. IE, exploration content - or content involving long-term improvements to yourself or your ship.  And that's exactly what my idea encompasses in its entirety. It's just a pitifully limited niche that will by no means entertain the majority of players.
 

And trust me
Why?

and it's almost universally because they don't want to(or are unable to) actually come up with suggestions that can actually meet the needed criteria.
Only you know your criteria, only your imagination can meet it, if you're unable to - look within.

and everything to do with not breaking the rest of the game.
You still didn't provide anything breaking for the rest of the game.

There are very few places where you can actually use interiors for anything that doesn't cause more problems than it solves.
There are a lot of places and gameplay. If you don't like it or don't want it - it doesn't mean that it is not there. If for the game to have gameplay you personally don't like is a problem for you - nothing to be done about it.

There is a simple conceptual flaw with all mid-flight interior ideas,
lack of imagination or lack of any desire to use it in this specific case.

you can do those things and get back to your steering wheel before anything important happens. The same cannot be said about Elite.
If you don't want to do something in flight or it is too much hustle - just stop your ship and do it. Yeah, problems that don't exist.

if you release the sticks for even a brief moment, you can and will get pip-checked and probably lose the fight.
There are no any good gameplay ideas that would require player to do anything with Ship Interiors while in a fight. Another non-existent problem.

That alone instantly invalidates ALL mid-flight interior content.
Mid-flight doesn't mean mid-fight. Nothing is invalidated.

Almost all gameplay and content from Ship Interiors and EVA is NOT even mid-flight. There are gameplay you need to flight to, tho, that can't be a problem, right?

That leaves only content usable either while docked, or while in Supercruise
Nah, most of the gameplay is in Space!

And most of the remaining options are invalidated while in habitable space, like repairs, because it'll almost always be faster and better to just dock at a station
Clearly didn't explore all the possible features, as that is not even close to what's possible.

So now we're limited to just content that can work while landed and without any stations nearby.
No we are not that limited.

And that's exactly what my idea encompasses in its entirety. It's just a pitifully limited niche that will by no means entertain the majority of players.
Is the whole thing about your idea? If you think it's a 'pitifully limited niche' you can work on it and improve it, but in no way you being not satisfied with your own idea means Ship Interiors are bad.
 
Much the contrary, the more I think about ship interiors, the more problems I find.
There are no problems with Ship Interiors. If you actually "see" so many of them, then you are simply against them.
Yet in truth they are feasible, profitable, extremely desired and every possible counter-point has already been debunked to Oblivion and back.

The ONLY valid reason to be against them is to desire another feature more and to therefore wish for the development-ressources to be allocated to that.
But fact is: NO other feature has ANY realistic prospect of being more feasible, profitable + so extremely desired.
Any other reason to be against Ship Interiors would in one way or another come down to actually simply wishing to hurt Elite.

And because I on the other hand want to see it thrive:
Add Ship Interiors!
 
None of you have addressed
All your points relevant to the topic were addressed. You're simply ignoring all discussions and explanations, while repeating the same thing that was disproven messages ago. Looks like you don't want to or not able to provide counter agreements.

and if you use your imagination, you will very quickly see the problems in each and every case.
Looks like we're lacking in imagination. Would you be so kind to describe problems with each and every case? Because so far you didn't address even one actual problem and ignored all possible gameplay ideas that you can easily find in this thread.

And before you think I'm speculating,
That is what we all do here, including yourself.

But it's dead. There is nothing there.
It's ALIVE! You're trying way too hard. Dead game next?

P.S.: Save yourself some time, there is such a thing as technology, your images are transcribed instantly without leaving the page. Way too hard...

Ship interiors is the best possible addition to the game! - This point stands, immovable.
 
Feel free to suggest anything you want. I will quickly and easily point out all the problems with it, and why it won't work.

Boarding

For example, let's go back to boarding. Pvp boarding is obviously out, for many reasons. The target can just log out, for example. Getting BOARDED also can't work, because it's not fun to get shot in the back while you dogfight. If they can board you at all, getting boarded means instant death, which isn't fun, and completely invalidates the existing gameplay loops. Why bother fighting an anaconda when you can just board them and shoot the NPC pilot in the head? If you have NPCs to prevent this, and they're effective enough to stop you from shooting them in the head, then getting boarded might as well not exist. If the NPCs can be beaten, you're back to instantly losing. So either it's pointless or infuriating; there is no middle ground.

If not in combat, boarding a disabled ship raises the question of why it should exist at all. Blowing it up already gives you many materials, far more quickly and effectively than boarding it ever could. Hatchbreakers allow you to steal their cargo more quickly and effectively than via boarding them. Stealing the ship is out, for obvious reasons. Why, then, should you board them at all?

That also applies to boarding them on the ground - but on the ground, you could just have the ship sitting near a building, which has already been developed, and requires no additional development time.

I see zero reason, therefore, to add boarding mechanics. It's unusuable in the majority of cases, actively unfun in the majority of cases, and does nothing we can't already have via existing gameplay loops.

Repairs

Repairs suffer similar problems. For one, the only time you'll want to repair is if you don't have a station available; there's a reason most players don't carry repair limpets or AFMUs for standard PVE or PVP combat builds. So you're already limited to places where stations aren't available. That leaves prolonged combat, or exploration - but combat requires prolonged periods of time TO repair, something that is almost never available. AX combat, for example, generally relies on spamming large numbers of limpets and getting a little bit of repairs from each one. Ships are so large, it would be utterly impractical to run around and repair anything to any significant degree. It would require being out of combat.

That leaves just exploration - but we already have repair mechanics for exploration gameplay, and the last thing you want to do is compel players to use the new content by making it better than the old. If you can repair your ship without a power or weight cost, players will feel obligated to use it, even if they don't like it. Best case, people are no more satisfied than they currently are. Worst case, they are much less satisfied.

Speculation / Imagination

Don't hide beneath the blanket of speculation or imagination. We can look at the game, see what has worked and hasn't worked, look what exists and doesn't exist, and make reasonable presumptions about what will and will not work. This isn't magic. The same goes for imagination; you can only come up with so many things that will fit into this game. We could imagine an alchemy and enchanting station inside our ship, but that doesn't mean it would fit or work at all with the game we have.

That's what people who dream of interiors so conveniently ignore. This is not a new game where we can think up whatever we want and build around that. We have an existing game which must be designed around. And the simple, unavoidable fact is, there are only so many niches available. If you can accept that, you might be able to come up with a comprehensive suggestion that might just barely have enough to make a viable suggestion. I doubt it, since I've spent a good amount of hours over the last 5 years trying exactly that, but it's at least theoretically possible.

But if you go in with the approach of ignoring consequences, ignoring practicality, and instead focusing on 'imagination', you're just yelling into the wind. Do you really think the devs still read this topic? No, it's a graveyard for ideas that will never, ever be implemented. Simple as that.
 
It was discussed extensively. You're just repeating the same thing that was said by others, including me, and agreed upon. If you don't agree with something - address those points, as there is little sense to repeat the same thing.

Same thing. Was discussed even more extensively, over many pages. If you don't agree with points made - address them, no point repeating the same thing.

Speculation / Imagination
More mudded waters for distraction.

There are usually more that one reason for things not working. Unless there is a completely unbiased analysis that takes into account all of the reasons - it is only a speculation.

From past mistakes one can learn and make new things better, that how it usually works. Theories and speculations about possible problems and possible solutions for them can help with that.

This isn't magic.

Feel free to suggest anything you want. I will quickly and easily point out all the problems with it, and why it won't work.
So out of all ideas and suggestions you've cherry picket only two, same as before, both were disproven, and even that was barely addressed as only repeats of what was said and no counter arguments.

There is much more in this thread, many digest posts that aggregate many ideas and points in one post - I suggest start with them, there are much more than two. Looking forward to see each and every case.
 
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