"Development Level >>"? Figuring out what all these numbers do.

The "catch", I'd say, is that as Frontier might overreact and go for something like "all system economy influence affects all colony stations in the system", to give players what they deserve, you probably don't want to actually start building any of this stuff until things are out of Beta.
This is the fundamental issue with running the Beta, unpolished, in the long-standing stable Galaxy. The stations built now may be incompatible with the as-is Galaxy, because of a defect, and may also be incompatible with next week's universe, because Fix 2 (or will we be on Fix 3? I've lost track) will change some rules.

"Feature complete" isn't a useful distinction if you are going to make major iterations to the ruleset on top of those features, and achieving confidence that you aren't going to find yourself in that situation is quite difficult in small-scale testing, even if you have done a decent amount of business acceptance testing before that.

The statement that "there are some things we will only find out by doing the Beta this way" is fine, but it also masks that there are quite a lot of thing you would find out if you had a smaller test first. And now there is the problem that anyone who built a system, good or bad, might find that they can never reproduce that, and other players will come along and be very confused about how it was done, because it will have become impossible later.

And that might lead us further down the path of just making everything easy so nobody can possibly complain (hello to Insulating Membranes again), and then half the gameplay's gone.

There absolutely is a point where you'd drop an all-players version into the live galaxy, but the state FDev chose to do that is simply too early and the problem is the state machine, skewed by both defects and the law of unintended consequences, is going to run away from FDev. Which is particularly annoying when Arf waxed lyrical about the point that FDev never know what players will do.
 
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Another data point. In my system with just an industrial outpost, I have added a relay station and a refinery hub. The pop has gone from 5500 to 8200. The station has gone from industrial(1.15) to industrial(1.15) + refinery(0.45). Supply has gone up and a few refinery goods have been added. All as expected.

Next for this system will be civilian planetary port to test refinery influence on a colony, security station and more refineries. The planet has 1.7G and is 700K in the sun, the colonists will love it.
 
Oh, interesting - so economy influence works on non-Colony stations too. That I didn't expect (and is probably unhelpful more often than not)
I'll be taking a look at how population effects economy either tonight or tomorrow when the pops apply to my system for a Civilian surface port I'll be starting today. Should be an interesting experiment!
 
Just claimed another system with a scientific outpost, right out of the gate i got 10k pops, rather than the paltry 4.5k i got with an industrial outpost in my first system, it even still surpases that initial system after it has been built up with several installations and even 1 settlement (1 comms, 1 sattelite, 1 refinery hub, 1 medium mining settlement), furthermore, while the market supply is nothing to write home about, it still beats the hell out of my first industrial outpost (360 biowaste vs 80, 2k hydrogen fuel vs 208 and overall, i feel like i could provide the high tech stuff from here for other builds, whereas industrial couldn't provide enough computer components for anything)
cap2.PNG

cap1.PNG

Unless were missing some external factor, it truly does seem like population is the meta, and thus scientific outposts are the go to must builds of main ports, due to pops and the fact they actually supply usable amounts for other projects.
 
Weeeeeeell.. maybe not good news.

The implication of this message is that Frontier does not have an economic model or 'playbook' that has been internally studied, hashed-out, and simulated. It is also very apparent that the economic models of the new colonisation systems do not follow the older existing systems. Which means they did NOT previously have an economic model that systems were based on that was satisfactory for future use (ie: player colonisation). They were NOT building on a "foundation" that they often claimed they were building over the years.

What this also means is that whatever 'playbook' they are now using is still being developed and being dynamically changed. I am not referring to levels, ratios, etc. I am referring to the actual rules of how a system's economy are supposed to function: the types of facilities required, placement, and interaction. The above message implies the overall basic rules of how facilities interact is up for change. Perhaps this is good, but only if it is necessary because the underlying concepts for system design weren't designed well* and need to be changed. Which is kinda bad. I realize this is a Beta, but I would have expected the overall playbook to be established in the early days of development, not upon rollout to the online community.


*There might be many ways to imagine how a system's economy should be designed to function well. But whatever solution chosen should make some sense. It should be somewhat logical to a cmdr what should make a successful colony (whatever successful means to a cmdr). It should certainly NOT be an illogical solution with arbitrary mechanics.
 
Update 3/22/25
Beginning tracking of Demand here
Col 359 Sector CJ-R c5-27

Last Population: 34,200
New Population: 38,400
Old System Stats: 7/18/16/22/13
New System Stats: 9/21/17/23/15

New System Builds:
  • Satellite
  • Comms
  • Relay

Market Changes:
+13% Global Market Supply
Subtle changes to Market Pricing (+/- up to 10 credits)

coriolis2.PNG
coriolis3.PNG
 
Unless were missing some external factor, it truly does seem like population is the meta, and thus scientific outposts are the go to must builds of main ports, due to pops and the fact they actually supply usable amounts for other projects.
Population - in NPC stations - is a critical factor for production, with production generally being proportional to the square root of population.

However, our new colonised stations have production levels sometimes orders of magnitude below that which would be expected from their inferred population - I suspect that an NPC system has a suitable default level of wealth, tech, development, etc. which we need to build up as part of getting the economy going. Both are important.

2k H-fuel from the scientific would normally be expected for a population of maybe a few thousand, not ten thousand, for example. 208 from the industrial (after building a few other upgrades too) is maybe a thousand people rather than 5000.

The implication of this message is that Frontier does not have an economic model or 'playbook' that has been internally studied, hashed-out, and simulated. It is also very apparent that the economic models of the new colonisation systems do not follow the older existing systems. Which means they did NOT previously have an economic model that systems were based on that was satisfactory for future use (ie: player colonisation). They were NOT building on a "foundation" that they often claimed they were building over the years.
Certainly the existing systems don't and couldn't have an underlying economic/dependency model anything resembling this one, having been built up gradually over years of the assets becoming available and at least two major economic rebalances (with Trailblazers itself adding a third for some items). It'd have been overcomplex and unnecessary for the first decade of Elite's existence when all of this was static (+transient BGS effects). And not that Frontier haven't overcomplicated details at time - whatever is going on with outfitting - but not here.

Your first sentence I'm less sure about. I think they did internally hash-out and simulate this one a fair bit: remember that the original statement for Beta was "we're happy with all the principles, we're just looking to balance the quantities" (presumably, expecting people would generally find them a bit on the high side, early colonies would be slow and group-driven, rather than people hauling 10 CGs a week worth of cargo to build their new systems and some activity metrics hitting record levels)

I think they missed two critical things in the internal simulation:
1) They know how all this works, so would never have fallen into the trap of building a colony station where it wouldn't be able to do anything (without meaning to) - the vague line in the Pilot's Handbook they'd a) have read and b) known what it meant. Doubly so for things like knowing what "Wealth +3" actually implies and therefore when you might want to build one.
2) They're not anywhere near as quantitatively-driven as a lot of players are, so "cool, I have an Orbis around an ELW, screenshot!" might have seemed absolutely fine even if it was a permanent Colony economy. (It's not as if Colony economies are bad as such - they import a huge range of stuff, so are great for selling to - it's just a problem if you wanted it to be something else) Some players are probably quite fine with that too, when it comes down to it. I know I've positioned a few ground bases more for aesthetics than for convenience of landing.

(It might well be that if at any point in the past decade they'd bothered to surface and explain wealth, development level, etc. this all might seem intuitive enough to us by now that at least those of us who'd read up on it could patiently or otherwise be explaining it to everyone else)
 
What I am really getting at is:

a) This update shows that there had not been a long term plan. It doesn't mean that 10 years ago the game needed to have a sophisticated fleshed-out simulation model for the auto creation of systems. But it is apparent that systems were not designed with the appearance of functional economies in mind. It wasn't important. The point is, it appears Colonisation was not part of a long term plan. It is relatively new.

b) The CM's message implies basic rules (game mechanics) on how facilities interact are possibly going to be changed. This means the Beta is for more than simply fixing bugs and tweeking limits, values and ratios. The fundamental game mechanics for laying out a colony are under review.

Edit:
c) The colonisation mechanics seem quite arbitrary. Player intuitive logic for creating a successful colony does not apply, rather a player must figure out arbitrary mechanics. Hence we have this thread "to figure out what all these numbers do."

The reason why I don't think the CM's message is good news for alot of cmdrs is this: Anything developed or learned by players during the beta might become worthless. I suppose that is the risk a player takes in participating in a 'Beta'.
 
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What I am really getting at is:

a) This update shows that there had not been a long term plan. It doesn't mean that 10 years ago the game needed to have a sophisticated fleshed-out simulation model for the auto creation of systems. But it is apparent that systems were not designed with the appearance of functional economies in mind. It wasn't important. The point is, it appears Colonisation was not part of a long term plan. It is relatively new.
Yes. I'd place at least the starting to work on it in something approaching this form alongside the ending of PMF requests in early 2022 - it fits with their announcements at the time.

I think a BGS-driven colonisation had been on their list for the 10 years before that - it was hinted at in some of the Kickstarter videos - but would never have been workable at scale.
 
A lot of that is just plain wrong, I think
- you can start with a manufacturing type of economy (and it's often easier to, as they're available as outposts, etc.). Starting with extraction and moving to refinery and then manufacturing is how you bootstrap a self-sufficient economy in the X series; it doesn't apply here as the ED economy is much more abstract [1] (the boost to Wealth from extraction might be important, but you could equally obtain that from Tourism)
- "each planet type will extract different materials" is almost certainly false; certainly asteroid bases don't seem to be affected by the ring types they're in, for example
- there doesn't appear to be any quantitative advantage (or disadvantage) to having a different economy to neighbouring systems, though if you were trying to build up out-of-bubble production there's obviously an advantage to diversifying so you aren't wasting time building lots of industrial if someone in the next system already has a big industrial economy you can just buy your supplies from instead
- trade lanes in the in-system sense are just drawn between the larger dockables and don't imply any actual trade
- trade lanes between system don't affect production except in the case where selling to your system creates a Boom state and increases supply of most commodities that way (but if you keep trading and end up in Investment, that will then reduce supply)
- pirate attention is not related to the number of previous trips to that station (security level, yes)


[1] For example, I built an Extraction Settlement last night, and my Agricultural station changed from producing Algae, Fruit and Grain to producing H-Fuel, Tea and Leather. There is no plausible explanation for that in terms of concrete X-style inter-station trading flows, though it does provide further evidence that we aren't purely replicating NPC markets here.
Ian, this community needs you! And to be precise (if I may humbly suggest so), it needs you to write some sort of basic guide / Q&A on the economy/market/facility aspect of colonization.

With all the misinformation and hearsay spouted on reddit, youtube channels etc., your thread has been my main source for valid information. But even this thread isn’t completely devoid of speculation and questionable statements. Not to mention it has become a 40 page behemoth by now. Quite a few times, I’ve run across a problem/question that I knew there was an answer to somewhere in here (or was it the even larger feedback thread?), but I just couldn’t find it anymore.

I know it’s impossible to write a complete, reliable guide at this point. But even a guide or Q&A with lots of “unknowns” would help tremendously (in that we learn that we don’t need to search the Internet for certain answers and should distrust those who claim they have them).

I’ve seen you take your time to help out individual CMDRs, so it might be more effective for you as well if you condensed your knowledge – maybe by editing your original post and always keeping it up to date?

This is just a humble suggestion. It’s your thread and your research. But after almost a month of work I personally believe such a text would be a godsend to the community right now.
 
Ian, this community needs you! And to be precise (if I may humbly suggest so), it needs you to write some sort of basic guide / Q&A on the economy/market/facility aspect of colonization.

With all the misinformation and hearsay spouted on reddit, youtube channels etc., your thread has been my main source for valid information. But even this thread isn’t completely devoid of speculation and questionable statements. Not to mention it has become a 40 page behemoth by now. Quite a few times, I’ve run across a problem/question that I knew there was an answer to somewhere in here (or was it the even larger feedback thread?), but I just couldn’t find it anymore.

I know it’s impossible to write a complete, reliable guide at this point. But even a guide or Q&A with lots of “unknowns” would help tremendously (in that we learn that we don’t need to search the Internet for certain answers and should distrust those who claim they have them).

I’ve seen you take your time to help out individual CMDRs, so it might be more effective for you as well if you condensed your knowledge – maybe by editing your original post and always keeping it up to date?

This is just a humble suggestion. It’s your thread and your research. But after almost a month of work I personally believe such a text would be a godsend to the community right now.
I'll be happy to contribute to this as well!
 
Ian, this community needs you! And to be precise (if I may humbly suggest so), it needs you to write some sort of basic guide / Q&A on the economy/market/facility aspect of colonization.
For pre-colonisation economic stuff:
- this old thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...ly-demand-and-relationship-to-the-bgs.441646/ is still essentially right as far as I can tell (there have been some minor changes, but nothing too important)
- https://cdb.sotl.org.uk/effects and https://cdb.sotl.org.uk/specialities have useful data tables to go along with that (the effects tables are a bit bare at the moment, as so many market prices changed with the Trailblazers release that the earlier data used to build them is no longer reliable, so the data gathering and analysis process is starting over - it is, fortunately, fully automated)
- the market information in-game can be surprisingly helpful if you're not purely looking for maximum profits

For new systems there's some interesting things appearing to be going on with economy sizes, productivity, station specialisation changes, and so on. But I don't have much idea what other than vague handwaves.

I’ve seen you take your time to help out individual CMDRs, so it might be more effective for you as well if you condensed your knowledge – maybe by editing your original post and always keeping it up to date?
I have been doing that every few days so far with all information I consider reliably determined to that point. As you can tell, that's not very much yet. Unless we get some extra info from Frontier this is something I expect to take months: most investigations of similar scopes, whether mine or other people's, have taken similar amounts of time.

(At the moment the data people are sharing in this thread is great, but mainly is serving to disprove some of the simpler possible theories)

I'll do another update today but it won't change much.
 
Whats up with T1 ground ports only ever having 3 items for sale? Is this intended? I know we shouldn't compare to vanilla space but every single port of a similar size/class always has a full spectrum of goods for sale. I've seen people flipping T1 ports, even to refinery, but they'll only ever sell 3 different items at a time. Boosting the tech/development just seems to re-roll which items, but it's always stuck at 3. Has anyone seen any of the T1 ground ports ever selling more than 3 things?
 
Whats up with T1 ground ports only ever having 3 items for sale? Is this intended? I know we shouldn't compare to vanilla space but every single port of a similar size/class always has a full spectrum of goods for sale. I've seen people flipping T1 ports, even to refinery, but they'll only ever sell 3 different items at a time. Boosting the tech/development just seems to re-roll which items, but it's always stuck at 3. Has anyone seen any of the T1 ground ports ever selling more than 3 things?
just constructing one :) together with refinery hub - will report once its ready (Tuesday maybe)
 
Whats up with T1 ground ports only ever having 3 items for sale?
To confirm your findings, I have the Planetary Port Outpost - Scientific Providentia (cost ~36,000 commodities)
  • This planet also has 2 large science facilities and an orbital science facility. No hubs yet.
  • Completed March 11.
  • No shipyard, outfitting, livery, or univ cartographers.
  • Lots of missions available.
  • Only 3 items for sale: consumer tech(qty 401), synthetic meat (qty 2,681), resonating separators (2,651).
 
  • Completed March 11.
  • No shipyard, outfitting, livery, or univ cartographers.
  • Lots of missions available.
  • Only 3 items for sale: consumer tech(qty 401), synthetic meat (qty 2,681), resonating separators (2,651).

Bad sign, it shouldn't be that way. There's really something wrong.
 
Out of interest... anyone got any idea what governs how many surface slots a body might have?

I'm building out a system that has one with 5... and it's a large-ish body with rings, 4,111km radius... thought that might be it, but a 14k km radius planet only had 4 slots.
found the same situation in one of my system A 1 d has a diam of ~1500 Km, and its moon A1 d a ~350 km - but both have 2 slots.
another landable body in the system, Diam ~ 3000 Km has none?
 
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