ship interiors - will they happen

I'd prefer more landable planets, additional and deeper atmospheres, additional biologicals, gas giants. Space sim stuff.
With the current level of procedural generation and graphics technology, assuming fidelity equivalent with existing Odyssey assets, landable...

● Barren thick atmosphere storm worlds (Titan, Venus, LV-426): Very easy to do. Thick particle effect systems, atmospheric simulation force vectors and lightning flashes already exist in the game because of the thargoid maelstroms. All you need is additional procedural systems for creating the weather fronts. If the world is in a high population system and a candidate for terraforming, the surface would receive terraforming facilities, like the ones you see in the movie Aliens.
● Gas giant upper atmospheres: Easy. Procedural systems that can populate the skies with various weather fronts, storms and rains. Then you'd just have to figure out the lore of why CMDRs who eject somehow don't die.
● Thick atmosphere desert worlds (Tatooine, Arrakis, Hoth): Medium difficulty. Procedural systems to populate the skies with clouds that match the Stellar Forge planet texture from space, but with polar biome difference with potential snowfall, and changing polar regions based on seasons. If the conditions are right, commanders can remove their helmets on the surface. If it's cold or hot but not deadly, standard Odyssey environmental hazard mechanics apply.
● Water worlds: Hard. In addition to clouds and weatherfronts, you need procedurally populated glaciers that change based on seasonal drift of the winter region near poles. The calculation of where this region is is easy because it's just a matter of temperature and pressure but actually creating Earth-scale polar regions with thousands of square miles of desolate ice mazes is not a small task. Also, many water worlds have wildlife. Making a few animations of non-identifiable aquatic beings bumping the surface sometimes is not hard. Flying animals would also need to sometimes be in the skies. But you would not be allowed to dive underwater because generating those biospheres with enough complexity and variety across worlds is not feasible.
● Ammonia worlds and Earth like worlds: Impossible. To populate tens of millions of 1:1 scale Earth like worlds or Ammonia-based biology worlds with their separately evolved unique biospheres with dozens of different biomes seamlessly meshing with each other, with realistic erosion signatures and water and weather systems, hundreds of millions of completely unique plants and animals, complete with strangeness brought on by tidally locked twilight worlds, high-gravity crusher worlds and neutron-orbiting gamma hell worlds, you would need technology that simply does not exist yet. The minimum level of detail is E: D Odyssey. A singular square inch is the smallest detail that needs to be perfect. Every square inch of tens of millions of those worlds has to look as high fidelity as every square inch of an Odyssey settlement or planetary rock texture. The Cobra Engine is not The Matrix.
● Human-populated desert, water, and Earth-like worlds: Beyond reasonable by any conceivable measure -impossible. Combine all that was listed previously, and add to that the procedural generation of 1:1 Earth scale 34th century total human sci-fi infrastructures supporting the lives and industries of billions of people per world. Thousands of nations. Hundreds of cultures. All influencing the cities, architectures, languages, fashion, music. Billions of kilometers of highways with thousands of brands and models of vehicles. Sea lanes with cargo ships, cruise liners and recreational boats going around. ...and even if it was possible, which it isn't, it would not be allowed, because human societies have children and sleep schedules, and in E: D you aren't allowed to shoot a child, a sleeping person, or any unarmed person, due to ESRB age ratings.

However...
● Water worlds and human-terraformed Earth like worlds, with shuttle rides from orbiting stations onto limited exploration human infrastructure on surfaces: Surprisingly easy. Just fake it until you make it. Some procedural tech to create a skybox around the place. The player can explore a section of a city or an outpost on foot without the ability to leave, and can see what's in the horizon outside the explorable area, whether it's wilderness with trees, countryside, cities in the distance or giant skyscrapers right there around you, with the current controlling faction's or power's banners flying. Plants imported from Earth use common models. Birds in the sky are just birds from Earth.
 
With the current level of procedural generation and graphics technology, assuming fidelity equivalent with existing Odyssey assets, landable...

● Water worlds: Hard. In addition to clouds and weatherfronts, you need procedurally populated glaciers that change based on seasonal drift of the winter region near poles. The calculation of where this region is is easy because it's just a matter of temperature and pressure but actually creating Earth-scale polar regions with thousands of square miles of desolate ice mazes is not a small task. Also, many water worlds have wildlife. Making a few animations of non-identifiable aquatic beings bumping the surface sometimes is not hard. Flying animals would also need to sometimes be in the skies. But you would not be allowed to dive underwater because generating those biospheres with enough complexity and variety across worlds is not feasible.

ED probably won't have hard-science simulated weather or ecosystems. Water worlds are not difficult if we cannot go underwater. What's needed is:
  1. Thick atmosphere
  2. Weather effects (clouds, storms, rain, Microsoft Flight Simulator has this)
  3. Simulate an ocean surface landscape (cannot dive).
  4. Add a few settlements on top of the ocean for docking, trading.
  5. Add a few locations for new resources: fishing commodities, raw materials, wreckages etc.
  6. A few islands (optional)

● Human-populated desert, water, and Earth-like worlds: Beyond reasonable by any conceivable measure -impossible. Combine all that was listed previously, and add to that the procedural generation of 1:1 Earth scale 34th century total human sci-fi infrastructures supporting the lives and industries of billions of people per world. Thousands of nations. Hundreds of cultures. All influencing the cities, architectures, languages, fashion, music. Billions of kilometers of highways with thousands of brands and models of vehicles. Sea lanes with cargo ships, cruise liners and recreational boats going around. ...and even if it was possible, which it isn't, it would not be allowed, because human societies have children and sleep schedules, and in E: D you aren't allowed to shoot a child, a sleeping person, or any unarmed person, due to ESRB age ratings.

Your expectations are too high. Frontier: Elite II has Earth-like worlds without hard-science simulation. So I think in ED it will be similar with prettier graphics. I doubt there will be any large procedural cities (would be cool though). For example:
  1. Atmosphere tech (see water world)
  2. A couple of biomes with procedural flora and fauna like No Man's Sky.
  3. If they put 10 Odyssey settlements together and reskin the buildings then it would look like a city.
 
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Your expectations are too high. Frontier: Elite II has Earth-like worlds without hard-science simulation. So I think in ED it will be similar with prettier graphics.
It's not my expectations. It's the game's current precedent that Odyssey has set. Nothing can be allowed to be significantly less detailed than anything you can walk around in Odyssey. Otherwise the disconnect in immersion is way too high. You can't go from an extremely detailed space station interior and highly plausible levels of ground detail in barren rock worlds into No Man's Spore and ten million functionally identical Babby's First Earth clones with Minecraft esque biome definitions and three dozen different animals across a galaxy of millions of those worlds. It would be a hundred orders of magnitude worse than the idea of the E:D galaxy having one variant of star and one type of planet.

Odyssey's graphical fidelity within its limited scope has basically set the bar that every forest in an Earth like world has to look nearly as detailed as Kingdom Come Deliverance for every square meter of it. Same for ammonia worlds. -And that multiplied by the fact that all of those environments are insulated, separate biospheres that evolved separately and are only connected by the common rules of the fundamental laws of physics. Letting the player explore a basic attempt at that within the scale of the Milky Way would just lead into a lame hall of mirrors, where everywhere you go almost nothing is different, because it simply can't be done with current level of technology. You can't just lower the bar of fidelity of this one feature by a thousand miles just for the sake of having that feature. Less is more when you can't actually do more. Being able to imagine what is in this instance is better than being shown a bad attempt at what could be but can't.

Even Odyssey made the mistake of calling the various biologies you can scan "species" when they're not. They're galactic instances of certain hypothetical and known metabolisms that you can catalogue. They're separately evolved convergent examples of the biochemistry functioning based on the same laws of physics in similar environments. You don't find panspermia with 50,000 light years in between of copies of the same shrub. It's chemically and energetically similar worlds having developed similar types of self-replicating reactions evolving to the same metabolism of two completely separate species of life, categorized by that metabolism by Vista Genomics as "Fonticulua Campestris", etc. In order to have even an illusion of Earth-like biodiversity, you would need hundreds of species per planet, and millions of variants for separate planets, with aberrations caused by very strange exceptions like tidally locked twilight worlds. And then double that based on ammonia or arsenic based chemistry. And since that can't be done, any poor attempt at it would just look lame and stupid, and in extreme contrast with the rest of the on-foot experience. It would be ridiculed out of the room.
 
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Even Odyssey made the mistake of calling the various biologies you can scan "species" when they're not. They're galactic instances of certain hypothetical and known metabolisms that you can catalogue. They're separately evolved convergent examples of the biochemistry functioning based on the same laws of physics in similar environments. You don't find panspermia with 50,000 light years in between of copies of the same shrub. It's chemically and energetically similar worlds having developed similar types of self-replicating reactions evolving to the same metabolism of two completely separate species of life, categorized by that metabolism by Vista Genomics as "Fonticulua Campestris", etc. In order to have even an illusion of Earth-like biodiversity, you would need hundreds of species per planet, and millions of variants for separate planets, with aberrations caused by very strange exceptions like tidally locked twilight worlds. And then double that based on ammonia or arsenic based chemistry. And since that can't be done, any poor attempt at it would just look lame and stupid, and in extreme contrast with the rest of the on-foot experience. It would be ridiculed out of the room.
I forgive them that as it is the sort of close enough description that journalists and popularisers would pass on to a gropup of mostly non scientific mercenary pilots.
 
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It's not my expectations. It's the game's current precedent that Odyssey has set. Nothing can be allowed to be significantly less detailed than anything you can walk around in Odyssey. Otherwise the disconnect in immersion is way too high. You can't go from an extremely detailed space station interior and highly plausible levels of ground detail in barren rock worlds into No Man's Spore and ten million functionally identical Babby's First Earth clones with Minecraft esque biome definitions and three dozen different animals across a galaxy of millions of those worlds. It would be a hundred orders of magnitude worse than the idea of the E:D galaxy having one variant of star and one type of planet.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. High expectations means you're likely to be disappointed if we get it. The only past examples of landable Earth-like worlds in Elite are Frontier: Elite II, and Frontier: First Encounters.

 
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Less is more when you can't actually do more. Being able to imagine what is in this instance is better than being shown a bad attempt at what could be but can't.
I could likewise put my subjective opinion that: less is just less, and if I wanted to imagine my gameplay I'd just play Eve Online or a Table Top game.
Realism at the cost of fun, is no game at all.
I'm not going to bother giving you other examples of scientifically unrealistic features in the game besides this one: Black Holes don't do anything harmful to players.
Where's the scientificially accurate spaghettification, death and more from the most notable stellar phenomenon out there?
 
Even Odyssey made the mistake of calling the various biologies you can scan "species" when they're not. They're galactic instances of certain hypothetical and known metabolisms that you can catalogue. They're separately evolved convergent examples of the biochemistry functioning based on the same laws of physics in similar environments.

In my head canon, they are the floral equivalent of Carcinization...
 
I could likewise put my subjective opinion that: less is just less, and if I wanted to imagine my gameplay I'd just play Eve Online or a Table Top game.
Realism at the cost of fun, is no game at all.
I'm not going to bother giving you other examples of scientifically unrealistic features in the game besides this one: Black Holes don't do anything harmful to players.
Where's the scientificially accurate spaghettification, death and more from the most notable stellar phenomenon out there?
This is not about "realism" it is about a precedent that when not met would create an irritating contrast and disconnect, and about the destruction of immersion and the galaxy's believability. The biodiversity that current levels of procedural generation would be capable of creating is nowhere even close to what would be necessary for a reasonably diverse propagation of life on tens of millions of worlds of varying chemistries and conditions. You would 100% be making the game and the Milky Way galaxy more boring simply via the revelation of near-identical Earth clones everywhere you go. And I'm saying this as someone who is well aware of convergent evolution and the thermodynamic optimal that is a humanoid shape for a life form. Thargoids are so alien that they are actually less believable than the guadians, because they fit our universe's laws of physics worse. And still the kind of tech that made No Man's Sky possible is a lame insufficient effort to make Elite's biodiversity match the fidelity of the rest of the game. I'm sorry but 64 different animals is a mediocre zoo, not a galaxy-wide bestiary.

I really don't think people understand even a fraction of what they're asking for when they demand landable garden worlds. Or they just want the generic Star Trek / Star Wars / Stargate experience of literally every place in the Galaxy just being a forest in British Columbia or a sandy quarry ...in British Columbia, and the immersion of everyone who appreciates the lengths to which Frontier went to develop Stellar Forge is a sacrifice they're willing to make just so that they can take their fishing poles and go catch some Plaa Ain C54-6 J12 AB 4B Rainbow Trout (but spraypainted purple) that just happens to consist of levo chiral DNA based flesh fit for human consumption. Just like the identical fish in five hundred thousand other planets almost exactly like it. Without even primitive civilizations having developed on any of them, you know, the kinds that are already written in the lore as having been found on an imperial colony world. Or maybe there are. Maybe the galaxy is also full of almost identical alien cavemen who all speak the same gibberish and dance around identical campfires. Their huts are just different color. Well, five different colors. Across every world. Bacterium Aurasus Green all over again.

With Stellar Forge, using basic known and extrapolated galactic composition and the regular laws of physics, a simulation of the basics of world formation resulted in something that sufficiently approximates the diversity of bodies and features, and the only reason we can't have jovian giants with 80 moons like in real life is the mathematical limits of the 64-bit signed integer which limits the maximum number of bodies in a star system. When you go one step beyond that, into the granularity of life across a galaxy, it is so many orders of magnitude more granularity that the primitive attempts at achieving that no longer match the rest of the game. That, ultimately, is my point with all this. That is why I think that currently, less is more. They can't do for Earth like worlds what they managed to do with barren rocks. Achieving that same fidelity with desert and water worlds, and gas giant atmospheres, that is still within the limits of feasibility.

 
They can't do for Earth like worlds what they managed to do with barren rocks. Achieving that same fidelity with desert and water worlds, and gas giant atmospheres, that is still within the limits of feasibility.
I'm not against your argument for scientific plausability to begin with, I'm saying that ED already has these flaws you fear would irritate you.
I mean honestly, you contradict yourself from the first sentence: "it's not about realism" but then you say it's about scientific plausability and simulation accuracy... So I don't know, what are we discussing then?

I don't think any majority of players who still play this game desire No Man's Sky style fishing, but there's some overlap to Star Wars already with how they designed the flight model. They even said in past posts to people complaining about it that the flight model is not 100% scientically accurate because it's more fun when it's more like Star Wars dogfighting.

It's without saying that players want more content for the game... Like atmospheric landing, atmospheric worlds and big game hunting which Braben said was going to be a feature, like it even dates back to the Elite books.

So I'll just end my part of this off-topic discussion here, it's way off-rails from talking about Ship Interiors. You originally replied to a guy who keeps making an argument that FDev should prioritize other content instead of or over Ship Interiors.
 
Please Fdev let us walk in our ships 🙏🏻 = 560 upvotes and 161 comments. It's still a popular request on the ED subreddit.

Comments:
Daniel_Day_Hubris: "I want my ships to feel like the sub in subnautica."
Earthserpent89: "This exactly. The larger ships could be like a mobile base of operations. I want to go exploring in my Anaconda and treat it like a space RV for my galactic road trip."

kachunkachunk: "For sure this. And while it would make for a very different game, adding survival elements and making it your mobile home in space would be incredibly satisfying. It's everything I've been wanting,"

BaraGuda89: "I love Elite, but this is why (even when it’s a buggy mess) I play Star Citizen; I FEEL like a Captain of a spaceship, and it’s AWESOME"
Roninspoon: "Yeah, same. Being able to use the ship interiors, and not just for novelty but using them in functional systemic ways, is amazingly immersive. Even when it’s an enormous pita."
 
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Elite Dangerous subreddit, 364,000 members, 560 upvotes....riiiight!
Around the same as this here forum, it seems...
forum1.jpg

290k members, a few dozen asking for ship interiors...
 
This is also because Reddit thrives on the upvoting system. Reddit is basically farming upvotes. You think everyone who reads the forums bothers to like every post they like?

Truth is: Nobody here cares what happens on Reddit. Nobody on Reddit cares what happens on the forums. Nobody cares what happens here or on Reddit. Feel free to find more permutations.
 
Please Fdev let us walk in our ships 🙏🏻 = 560 upvotes and 161 comments. It's still a popular request on the ED subreddit.

Comments:
Daniel_Day_Hubris: "I want my ships to feel like the sub in subnautica."
Earthserpent89: "This exactly. The larger ships could be like a mobile base of operations. I want to go exploring in my Anaconda and treat it like a space RV for my galactic road trip."

kachunkachunk: "For sure this. And while it would make for a very different game, adding survival elements and making it your mobile home in space would be incredibly satisfying. It's everything I've been wanting,"

BaraGuda89: "I love Elite, but this is why (even when it’s a buggy mess) I play Star Citizen; I FEEL like a Captain of a spaceship, and it’s AWESOME"
Roninspoon: "Yeah, same. Being able to use the ship interiors, and not just for novelty but using them in functional systemic ways, is amazingly immersive. Even when it’s an enormous pita."
And the top reply is "I want thick atmospheres more than anything I think"

(y) :D
 
Now the post has 1200+ upvotes and 306 comments (updated).

And the top reply is "I want thick atmospheres more than anything I think"

(y) :D

Thick atmospheres (with clouds, weather) would be awesome too. The main comment "I want my ships to feel like the sub in subnautica." comes second with 165 upvotes.
 
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And the top reply is "I want thick atmospheres more than anything I think"

(y) :D
And still not even half the upvotes of the main post :cool:
...
FDev 100% knows that ppl want Ship Interiors like water in the desert.
You can clearly tell by the way Arf tumbled over his words when talking about the "bridge" of the Panther during FrontierUnlocked 2 months ago.
Because he knew PRECISELY what would immediately come to peoples mind when they used this word.

Thing is, their communication is sadly still horrible, as it has always been.
There was a tiny bump up a while ago but that was it.
NOW:
They are once again purposefully being silent.

What FDev fails to understand is that this does not yield them more net-positives than -negatives.
...

IMO atm.
FDev is an "old-school" company.
Whatever happens, it happens slow. EXTREMELY so. BUT steady.
Therefore I still hold out hope towards ship interiors even though I actually really TRIED to abandon it at points.
But AGAIN AND AGAIN we are given hints of hope!

Best example recently:
Look at that ramp and door of the Panther.
It is literally placed there for no aesthetic reason whatsoever other than just to be there.
They could have easily just slammed a door on it somewhere and call it a day.
But they again specifically went out of their way to cramp the entire Ramp&Door-theme into the Panthers design!
Why? Why if not for Ship Interiors XD

And PS:
Idk the exact number but I estimate that roughly one-in-five Ships does not have a ramp.
AND THAT IS OK! E.g. a dedicated War-Ship such as the Federal Corvette does not actually need such a ramp to be convincingly immersive enough.
But it sure as hell looks cool nevertheless whenever a ship has one! Or does it? Which leads me back to my original point.

PSS:
Especially the ramps of the Mandalay and the Corsair made my Jaw drop.
They are just too detailed and too well thought out to seem like mere optical treats!

AND PSSS:
At this point, (speaking for myself here but still), I'd value a CLEAR WRITTEN statement from FDev about the topic of Ship Interiors almost as much as the real thing XD
 
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