Odyssey Combat is bad.

Demand can only come from new gameplay, requiring a new suit. As it stands the planet generation doesn't support caves, so that would have to get revamped a second time. I could see a new suit type for EVA in the future, should that ever be a thing.

It doesn't support them in the default generation of planets, but I'm thinking more like how settlements can have underground components without the player seeing themselves pass through the planet's surface. You basically just dig a hole and generate the cave into it. Then you have the cave systems themselves be randomly generated.

EVA would be another decent option. I've long thought that they could and should replace HGEs with derelict ships you can cut things off and toss back to your ship, with limpets deployed. You could also have small mineral deposits on asteroids that could be extracted for raw materials, something a lot of people currently don't particularly like collecting. And at the same time they could add the ability to grab and move around things like cargo containers and materials while on-foot, really diversifying the on-foot experience and making it more enjoyable. You know, you park your SRV, get out, and feed things into the waiting hopper, rather than needing to awkwardly drive over things and risk getting yeeted.

If they could optimize the getting in/out blackscreen to be nearly instant like ship swaps, too, then we're looking at some real steps forward here. Honestly, encouraging players to get in and out of their SRV regularly would be a really good thing overall. Incentivize buying SRV skins for sure, at a bare minimum.
 
What it REALLY looks like to me is, they were about halfway through the development cycle, they had a pre-alpha ready
I think this hits the nail on the head. It has a lot of potential, but it plays like an alpha release of a game. If it was polished, I'd definitely recommend it.
 
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Elite's FPS component is a mess.

Here's the first thing about PVE Shooters; to be enjoyable, they need a significant amount of diversity. On-foot gunplay is, at its core, simple. Everyone knows how to run, jump, and shoot. We've all been doing that for years. Doing that against the same type of enemy over and over gets dull very quickly, unless there's something to spice things up.

Games CAN get away with simplicity, IF they are very fast-paced. If you die in one or two shots, then that can be fun because the skill ceiling is so high.

But as games become more slow-paced, with shields and armor, they need more diversity to keep players interested, and that's where Elite doesn't do very well. Unfortunately, Elite combines the diversity of a fast-paced game with the kill speed and low risk of a slow-paced game, like Mass Effect. This leads to only one inevitable result; everyone running around with two rocket launchers, the only thing which allows them to achieve some semblance of the fast-paced gameplay they crave.

Other PVE games like Mass Effect achieve balance through a wide variety of enemy types, with encounters designed to combine them in innovative ways. For example, combine sniper type enemies who keep you pinned down in cover, with aggressive berserkers that force you OUT of cover. Or mid-range troopers that keep you distracted, while engineers set up turrets behind them to assert map control. The fact each type of unit has different tactics and strategies that interact with other types of unit, creates a constantly dynamic experience that you need to adjust to on the fly, and keeps the game enjoyable.

I believe Elite could emulate this approach. However, it will need a fair degree of new enemy types to make it work, the existing settlement maps need to be slightly redesigned, and several of the current mechanics need to be reworked.

The Sniper Rifle and Missile Problem(Lines of Sight)​




One thing a lot of people notice right away in Odyssey is that there is essentially no sniper rifle. Yes, there is the plasma rifle, which is ostensibly a sniper, but in practice its slow bullet velocity and the shield gate of enemies means that in practice, it's not a sniper at all.

Unlike others however, I would argue that the lack of sniper rifles isn't a simple design mistake, but a deeper concession to a fundamental design flaw; this game has too many sight lines. You can get a bead on an enemy guard from a kilometer away, and if you could actually kill them from that distance, you'd never do anything else, because it's not like they could shoot BACK. Settlements are HORRIBLY designed from a defensive standpoint. They are wide open to the surrounding planet surface, and can be sniped or bombarded with missiles with virtually zero effort. This is a huge problem, because it essentially calls into question the entire PURPOSE of on-foot combat. Why on earth are we sending in soldiers, when a ship with missiles can just vaporize the entire surface with zero effort?

Even once you get into the settlement, the problems persist. Despite the fact the outside requires an environment suit to protect from the lack of air and radiation, few settlements are actually built to allow passage between buildings. This means any outbuildings are basically irrelevant for combat, because they are completely disconnected from the rest of the map and typically contain exactly one door and no reason to go inside. It's quite odd how settlements built on alien planets are built more like shantytowns or beach bungalows than what they'd really look like, more akin to a base on Antarctica.

But even setting the realism standpoint aside, it also makes for bad map design. The current system essentially is nothing more than a wide, empty combat arena with no meaningful details. Nobody goes into any buildings because they have no REASON to go into any buildings(not to mention rockets and grenades making going inside pointlessly dangerous), and because jetpacks exist, cover is also largely irrelevant, leading inevitably to the dual-rocket meta. Why would you ever pick anything else, when you can get into the sky and obliterate everyone on the ground in two shots with a large splash radius?

View attachment 434504

Take a look at this map. The orange is where 95% of fighting is going to take place, and the red dot is a single location where you can literally see all of it. NPCs will run haphazardly into it and repeatedly die, making for a bland and emotionless experience.

View attachment 434505

Now, let's make a few small modifications. First, add some low walls along the tops of the roofs(yellow), to give a protected line of sight on the areas below. Then, add access points(purple) to allow NPCs multiple ways of reaching the tops of those roofs and attacking you from behind. Then, add a connecting hallway(green) and skyway(blue) between three of the four buildings, allowing those buildings to go from being useless, to being a full half the map. Lastly, let's add a Red tunnel, not only giving a second access point to the uppermost building, but also a back entrance to the open area. Suddenly, you can't just sit out there anymore, you actually need to run around, expose yourself to danger, and enter hostile situations!

Lastly, add overhangs to many things to protect people in cover from being attacked from the air, and walls around the outside edge to protect from snipers.

Relatively small tweaks like this can take maps from bland to far more interesting. And some maps should have more of each of these things. Some maps should take place primarily inside; others primarily outside.

2. The Orbital Bombardment/Rocket Launcher/Sniper Rifle Problem​


This is both a gameplay problem and a realism one. If ships can bombard settlements and kill everyone there fairly effortlessly with rockets, what point is there in on-foot combat in the first place? Why don't sniper rifles exist?

The obvious answer is shield generators and shield generator grenades. First, shields need to be changed to have a brief 'Shield Gate', to prevent from instakilling enemies with multiple projectiles. After that, shield bubble grenades need to be made much more common, and NPCs need to be coded to use them when bombarded. Then, settlements need to have much larger shields, which prevent ships from getting too close and snipers from shooting from beyond the bubble. This could have an opening or openings about 5m off the ground to allow SRVs and players inside, and even to allow for careful sniper shots, but I don't really see any other way to solve these issues.

3. Weapons, Suits, Enemies​


These changes are, unfortunately, just a start. They create the conditions under which an enjoyable game could be made, but to really do that, it'll take a fairly comprehensive reworking of weapons, suits and enemies as well. Does anyone REALLY think it's reasonable that EVERYONE in the galaxy uses the same exact suit type in combat? That grenades are limited but rockets are unlimited? That tools have no combat utility?

This is, fortunately, where a lot of monetization could come in. Imagine each faction(Empire, Federation, Independent, and Anarchy) has their own set of troop types, each with distinctive and thematic behaviors, and which players can acquire and apply cosmetics to? Imagine cosmetics for tools, not just weapons, and that tools can be freely swapped between different suits with different playstyles? The more suits players want to own, the more cosmetics they'll want, and the more money Fdev can make. I won't dig too deep here because quite frankly it's a style decision, but you can understand the basic principle by now.

Done right, Odyssey could be really good!
This is a good post, I agree with most of it, the devs will never read it
 
One thing a lot of people notice right away in Odyssey is that there is essentially no sniper rifle. Yes, there is the plasma rifle, which is ostensibly a sniper, but in practice its slow bullet velocity and the shield gate of enemies means that in practice, it's not a sniper at all.
You've only ever seen sniper rifles in movies and games with hitscan effects, "See target, target in crosshairs, shoot, target dead".
Reality - if you're shooting at a great distance, the bullet velocity even at 3kps, will take a long time to get to the target. The plasma bullet is an exaggerated effect here, but not unrealistic. At least it doesn't deviate from its trajectory from wind effects!
If ships can bombard settlements and kill everyone there fairly effortlessly with rockets, what point is there in on-foot combat in the first place?
Because you want to capture it and take its stuff. That's why every nation has an army - ou can drop bombs all day long, but without boots on the ground, you cannot keep whatever it was you were doing. The bad guys come back, rebuild and you have to return and drop bombs on them again and again until the defence contractors own all your mone...oh. Well, anyway.

The differences in suits are pointless, a flak jacket is a flak jacket is a a flak jacket. There will be minor differences but ultimately they're the same thing. Its another game trpe idea that every faction must have different stuff, when reality is they'll steal any new faction's design and make their own version of it.

Maybe FDev needs new suits - but I doubt it. they need new game modes. The ground combat is fine IMHO, I actually had more fuin with it than boring rotate-and-joust ship combat. The AI is decent though could be better at avoiding attacks in the first place and the enemies could be harder in places as a G5 suit and weapon make things too easy. If FDev wanted new stuff to sell, then I would recommend ship boarding actions as new ground combat. They have everything ready - settlement interiors are not siginificantlhy different to a ship interior (just need different layouts and art) and the combat works the same. Getting into the ship is another matter though, and would require a suit with thrusters for 0g maneuvering. You might want new recoiless weapons too until you get magboots on deck.
 
As it stands the planet generation doesn't support caves,
Been seeing the cave comment crop up a few times recently.
Maybe not caves in the true sense of the word and certainly not procedurally generated but thargoid surface structures felt pretty subterranean to me.

Through my simplistic rose tinted spectacles the 'cave' mechanism is there, adding (procedural) content is just a matter of money, time and motivation.
 
You've only ever seen sniper rifles in movies and games with hitscan effects, "See target, target in crosshairs, shoot, target dead".
Reality - if you're shooting at a great distance, the bullet velocity even at 3kps, will take a long time to get to the target. The plasma bullet is an exaggerated effect here, but not unrealistic. At least it doesn't deviate from its trajectory from wind effects!
I half agree with you here. I definitely think that hitscan sniper rifles are unrealisitic and that's always bothered me in games. I'm fine with the relatively slow projectile speed and having to compensate for that and lead a shot. I've done some distance shooting myself and all this logic tracks. I think what kills it for me though is that there's no bleed through damage for heavy hits so everything with a shield needs a double tap. But, after the first hit, with projectile speed, you don't really have much of a second shot opportunity before the target buggers off takes cover and lets their shield regenerate. There may be kind of a way to meta this with the on hit animation and a follow up shot, but that is for the birds. A sniper rifle is often a make-enemies-run-for-cover rifle. If they had something like an engineering upgrade to allow a bleed through effect on the sniper rifle, that would probably solve the problem of it.
 
I half agree with you here. I definitely think that hitscan sniper rifles are unrealisitic and that's always bothered me in games. I'm fine with the relatively slow projectile speed and having to compensate for that and lead a shot. I've done some distance shooting myself and all this logic tracks. I think what kills it for me though is that there's no bleed through damage for heavy hits so everything with a shield needs a double tap. But, after the first hit, with projectile speed, you don't really have much of a second shot opportunity before the target buggers off takes cover and lets their shield regenerate. There may be kind of a way to meta this with the on hit animation and a follow up shot, but that is for the birds. A sniper rifle is often a make-enemies-run-for-cover rifle. If they had something like an engineering upgrade to allow a bleed through effect on the sniper rifle, that would probably solve the problem of it.
Stability to stay on target after the first shot and send the second after it immediately. Usually I manage to land the second shot before they recover from shield loss stun.
 
Stability to stay on target after the first shot and send the second after it immediately. Usually I manage to land the second shot before they recover from shield loss stun.
Yeah, but they do that bending over thing so if one wants to get another headshot, one is pretty much just clocking the animation. I mean it can be done, but a double tap on every shielded target plus playing the meta makes it less "realistic" for me. This is one of the (many) reasons I just avoid on foot combat content in the game.
 
makes it less "realistic" for me
its got shields! The sniper 1-hit idea is just not part of the game. Pick up your assault rifle and get in there, blasting. The youtubers who have decided plasma is the meta and only gun to use have done everyone a huge disservice. Pick up the others.
 
its got shields! The sniper 1-hit idea is just not part of the game. Pick up your assault rifle and get in there, blasting. The youtubers who have decided plasma is the meta and only gun to use have done everyone a huge disservice. Pick up the others.
Plasma weapons are great. You get the best sidearm and the only shotgun, as well as the only long range rifle. The assault rifle....ok, outlier, it's bad. And you have only one suit that can have 2 primary weapons. So unless you use plasma on the others, you have to choose which damage type is to be a rifle and which only a sidearm.
 
Plasma weapons are great. You get the best sidearm and the only shotgun, as well as the only long range rifle. The assault rifle....ok, outlier, it's bad. And you have only one suit that can have 2 primary weapons. So unless you use plasma on the others, you get to choose which damage type is to be a rifle and which only a sidearm.
Your mileage may vary but the plasma pistol was the worst sidearm out of all the sidearms when I tried it. A consistent inability to fire in the direction it was pointing was a fundamental flaw. The kinetic pistol I found to be a much better sidearm but I ended up giving up before I finished the engineering unlocks and a lot of the plasma weapons seem to behave better when engineered even if their base form is disheartening.
 
Pick up your assault rifle and get in there, blasting.
And that's kinda the only option without AI exploit shenanigans. As such, the on foot combat game is basically just a second rate arcade shooter. I doubt this was the intent, though, else I would expect stealth (as weak sauce as it is) wouldn't have even been implemented. Nor would they have (poorly) designed a sniper weapon.
 
I have never played an FPS shooter, but Odyssey does it for me. Good enough, not too complicated.

My typical G5 loadout is an Executioner and Tormentor. With stability as that helps for the second shot or others. Body shots not head shots for the bigger target. It takes time to work out distant shooting with an Exe, and even then not every shot will hit. Better to wait if possible for the target to stop moving. I often use the Tormentor from behind at close range. They never see the shots coming.
 
I have never played an FPS shooter, but Odyssey does it for me. Good enough, not too complicated.
If it doesn't have a sniper rifle that can 1-shot a NPC from 3Km distance, instantly, the hardened FPS players consider it to be pants...
Because EDO doesn't adopt traditional, but incredibly boring, FPS mechanics, the 'purists' complain. To be expected, naturally, as it breaks the mould! 🤣

Foot combat in EDO is fun, for me at least, that is all that matters.
 
i absolutely agree that in isolation ground combat is pretty bland with hardly any variation.......

compared to other fpsers out there , or opening up more to 3rd person shooters (like the utter insanity that is helldivers 2 my current favorite coop game in years) it is clunky, generic and lacking in content.

BUT imo you cant (or shouldnt) take it in isolation. Yes of course I wish there was more to it, i would love for more varied maps, enemy types and (figuratively) dream of on foot thargoids and maybe some human alien hybrids or even just different types of commando to fight........

But ground combat is a tiny part of the Elite Dangerous experience and ED will not live or die based on its ground combat.

If all you want to do is play a game similar to what ground combat offers in Elite well then imo you should look elsewhere for one of a plethora of games which do it better........ However as an extra piece of content in the tapestry of Elite Dangerous as a whole..... i think there is plenty in there to have a few hrs of fun with between doing other stuff.

Yes i wish the individual features of elite meshed into each other better however I kind of look at the different things in Elite Dangerous more like mario party.

Other than the core flying around the milky way and shooting ships (which i still think is as good as any game on the market - i play in VR, i may feel different on a monitor) each individual feature on its own in elite you could almost certainly find a game which does it better.... however as a whole package, and for what is a really cheap price now, its a compelling product imo.
 
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Yeah, but they do that bending over thing so if one wants to get another headshot, one is pretty much just clocking the animation
Headshots don't matter with the Executioner*—just aim for the CoM🙃

*With the exception of Enforcers in High CZ-s.

Your mileage may vary but the plasma pistol was the worst sidearm out of all the sidearms when I tried it.
It's the best close-to-medium range stealth gun and one of the best closed quarters weapons along with Intimidator. If I had to pick one gun, and one gun only, to be used for the rest of my days, it'd be my extended mag, stability mod, double-suppressed Tormentor.

I think what kills it for me though is that there's no bleed through damage for heavy hits so everything with a shield needs a double tap.
Having no shield gating would cut both ways. A Level 3 Sharpshooter NPC is quite common during missions and can really ruin your day if you're just starting out with grade 1 or 2 gear. They can easily one-shot you if you don't have shield on, and if there was no shield gating, they'd probably one-shot you in your grade 1 Maverick suit with shield on. Now that would be fine in a twitch arena shooter or a hardcore milsim, or even in a single-player game where you can reload last save and try again. But in a MMO game like E: D it wouldn't be fun to fail missions over and over because that one pesky Sharpshooter managed to get a single lucky hit on you from behind while you were dealing with three Strikers running at you.
 
BUT imo you cant (or shouldnt) take it in isolation.
The comparison just gets worse when you evaluate it as a combined element of the gameplay. Almost all on foot activities are better completed not on foot. It's poorly shoved onto the side and an almost completely isolated part of the gameplay that uses an engineering system the players already rejected once for ship engineering. It is bad in isolation. It's worse when you look at the framework it's in.

There's no defending it or finding a light that is positive. It being shoved into elite doesn't suddenly make it less bad. It just makes the failures more disappointing.
 
that is a fair point. imo it would probably make more sense if all bases had a dome shield which was to all intents and purposes was immune from aerial attacks..... but were open to attacks from the ground on foot.
I am thinking something akin to the shields in the Dune universe or maybe helldivers 2 shield- albeit also blocks even slow moving ships.

so shoot at the shield and it bounces off but you can walk through it as a person.... so if you wanted to infiltrate a base you HAVE to do it on foot. maybe near the outskirts of the base you can hack something which then opens a gate to then allow an SRV in BUT to bring down the entire base shield you would have to get into the main security office where the alarms etc are.

I choose to head canon that that is there even if i cant see it and i choose to not cheese the mechanics. its not ideal, i would rather not have to make "fake" rules to make it work but it is what it is and is something i have had to do in Elite since it launched as its always had glaring exploits if you chose to do them
 
imo it would probably make more sense if all bases had a dome shield which was to all intents and purposes was immune from aerial attacks..... but were open to attacks from the ground on foot.
Doesn't need to be a force field or anything sci-fi. Extremely effective point defences that can protect an area from 99% of incoming missiles already exist today. Even during ship combat missiles are ineffective if the opponent has at least 2 PDT-s. Ground settlements just need a bunch of super-effective PDT-s so that unless you completely saturate the air with dumbfire missiles or fletchette launchers, nothing will reach the ground.

And other ship weapons are completely useless against ground units, anyways.
 
Doesn't need to be a force field or anything sci-fi. Extremely effective point defences that can protect an area from 99% of incoming missiles already exist today. Even during ship combat missiles are ineffective if the opponent has at least 2 PDT-s. Ground settlements just need a bunch of super-effective PDT-s so that unless you completely saturate the air with dumbfire missiles or fletchette launchers, nothing will reach the ground.

And other ship weapons are completely useless against ground units, anyways.
from a practical point of view you are correct..... however making a massive gun on a ship do barely any damage against a person does feel a cheap cop out to me.

really a hit from a ship laser, even a glancing blow should obliterate anything it hits in terms of human body armour.

so sure, it maybe works but as a preference personally i would go with a shield, which whilst difficult would be possible to take down, at which point if a player has a wingmate in their ship well then maybe they could and should be able to wreak havoc.
 
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