rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
That I can agree with. These are the facts.
But it's not equal to "This CG = P2W" in my opinion
Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?
- Thread starter Agony_Aunt
- Start date
But it's not equal to "This CG = P2W" in my opinion
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
But I'm not interested in convincing you. I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree. That's the difference
Again - you asked for an opinion, I provided one. That's it for me.
It's to encourage people to play the game, with a sweetner, like every other CG that has a sweetner. And on that, I shall agree that purchasable ships are p2w in the sense they short circuit some level of progression - however - by far the biggest factor in Elite is time and and as such I disagree the CG requires the PC, and only the PC, to be in the top spots.
Time can and does offset spending Arx; everything else is secondary to time. Even the ships.
I'll bow out of this debate; there is no point if facts are discarded so freely.
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They're weak for you, as it's just an opinion - same as mine. If you were looking only for confirmations of your claims that the current CG is P2W, you should have said so, I wouldn't bother to post to present my opinions
You've asked the question, I answered. Clearly you don't like my answer, but I'm not sure why you keep trying to convince me that you're right and I'm wrong, where there is no such thing... because again it's all just opinion.
Let me try a different approach.
Do you think there is zero P2W element here or just a teeny tiny bit?
If zero, then yes, we hold very strongly opposing opinions.
If teeny tiny P2W, then answer the question - is this the clearest example of P2W to date (even if teeny tiny)? Or in your opinion, are there other example of P2W that were worse? (eg: addition of Engineers prior to Horizons being merged into the base game).
What facts am I discarding?
But ok, call it a "sweetner" if you like. FD marketing department might want to use that phrase.
The ones you don't agree with.
Listen mate, I have no quarrel, but I think belief that the PC can somehow override every other factor, is giving me whiplash. Buy it, or don't, but this is almost a religious argument in tone because you've started shutting down multiple people who are trying to discuss this with you.
If there is zero interest in considering other viewpoints, then they are redundant, and this forum has failed in its purpose to be a place for discussion.
And this is also why this will be the last response. I politely agree to disagree. Perhaps we will find another topic to discuss in another thread, at another time.
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rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
P2W? No, because - again - everyone wins. There are no losers here.
P2A? Yes, but I already said that.
Perhaps you should make your question sound a bit less dramatic and give it more, wait for it, context?
::EDIT::
Scrap that. You did provide context. I think this is the crucial part of it:
In that context I have already agreed with you - Pay to get advantage. But you seem to argue it's actually more than that for some reason, which really goes against the definition of P2W you yourself have set for this discussion.
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The way the CG has been implemented has been all too predicable.
Balance and fairness has been out of the window for quite some time now, so why can't people just admit they're ok with these mechanics instead of trying to explain them away?
I'll certainly log in later and join the CG, even though I will not bother trying to compete with all the newfound PC2 owners, but because I'll succumb to the FOMO aspect of the CG i.e. the (for now) unicorn cargo rack rewards.
What bugs me more about the concept of buying a fully A-rated, advanced ship is that I could be a brand new player, and if I got my wallet out I could skip a substantial part of the early-to-mid progression in this game by doing so. That's my biggest issue with the entire concept of Arx-ships. Could easily be resolved by restricting the Arx purchase to simply unlocking the ships in the shipyard but still having to grind the necessary credits, but alas it seems Frontier didn't consider this a big enough carrot to get people to open their wallets otherwise they would've done that instead. At the expense of the new player experience.
Doesn't affect me because I went through that experience naturally about 10 years ago, but it'll be lost on new players who may wonder what the point of the Adder, Hauler, Cobra 3, Vipers, Keelback, T6 etc etc. even is.
Balance and fairness has been out of the window for quite some time now, so why can't people just admit they're ok with these mechanics instead of trying to explain them away?
I'll certainly log in later and join the CG, even though I will not bother trying to compete with all the newfound PC2 owners, but because I'll succumb to the FOMO aspect of the CG i.e. the (for now) unicorn cargo rack rewards.
What bugs me more about the concept of buying a fully A-rated, advanced ship is that I could be a brand new player, and if I got my wallet out I could skip a substantial part of the early-to-mid progression in this game by doing so. That's my biggest issue with the entire concept of Arx-ships. Could easily be resolved by restricting the Arx purchase to simply unlocking the ships in the shipyard but still having to grind the necessary credits, but alas it seems Frontier didn't consider this a big enough carrot to get people to open their wallets otherwise they would've done that instead. At the expense of the new player experience.
Doesn't affect me because I went through that experience naturally about 10 years ago, but it'll be lost on new players who may wonder what the point of the Adder, Hauler, Cobra 3, Vipers, Keelback, T6 etc etc. even is.
Or for accumulated Arx from playing see this post
Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?
One of the typical rebuttals used in the P2W debate over FD selling ships for real money is "How can it be P2W if there is nothing to win?" Its a rather narrow view of what P2W is, but let's look at the current CG from the perspective of that particular point. The new CG is a hauling CG, one...
It was always going to be that no matter how we got hold of it.
Which to be fair describes at least a third of all CGs over the years.
Maybe, but at the end of the day Frontier are not a hobby shop prepared to work at a loss for the love of what they are doing.
Really this CG makes the game Play 2 Win - once 'early access' is done for the Panther Clipper then anyone doing the CG will have more cargo space than someone who just plays the store and buys a Clipper for $$$.
(not disagreeing that the CG is designed to persuade ppl to buy a PC, but anyone with basic math will see it's not at all required to get the racks)
(not disagreeing that the CG is designed to persuade ppl to buy a PC, but anyone with basic math will see it's not at all required to get the racks)
When I saw the current CG yesterday, similar thoughts had crossed my mind. Heck I watched 2million in titanium evaporated from two ports in about 8 hours, right by the time i was able to log on. I also had thoughts of holy crapith a month long CG with the Panther numbers growing each day, even with a panther i'm not sure I can make the top 75%. I do want those rewards, I am a trader by nature in this game and their value is outstanding. You can take your T-9 and Cutter and turn them into exceptional hauling beasts. Negating a bit the balance between those ships and Panther. I like that. I never planned to set those two aside. I love the T-9 just because of everything what the T-9 is. I love the Cutter because it takes the T-9's short comings and shines some protection, range, and speed to the equation.
I do think you have a valid argument. I do think it is a bit suspicious. It can give an impression of value to the Panther to entice players to buy one. A rather strong impression. I did see a red flag when i read the CG description. Another of my first impressions was- Oh man i really want those cargo racks. Then- Gees this is gonna be a tough one, even with a Panther.
I think there is an absolute wicked easy solution to the scenario. Just give all participants two of each rack. Then >POOF< all of the pay for advantage is gone, erased, like it never happened. They could also make them available for credits after the CG. Maybe limit two of each for a ship.
I am all for players supporting the game. I do not want to see this unique master piece disappear. I totally understand, especially in todays evaporative individual wealth world, not every player can support those wishes. I do not want them to be or feel left out, punished for their practical reasons of not purchasing a Panther. Real life food and bills outweighs everything, survival is pinnacle.
I do hope Fdev understand this, read what you stated Angry Aunt (lol), you know I mean Agony Aunt. And find a way not to separate their player base, but bring them closer together. Because that's way more fun and engaging to cooperate and share Elite together.
Note-There are good statements from both sides. Don't look too deeply, keep it simple, causal factor in this situation- two of each rather than one a piece. Can mean the difference of a player feeling equal and worthy, or a player feeling left out and disregarded.
I do think you have a valid argument. I do think it is a bit suspicious. It can give an impression of value to the Panther to entice players to buy one. A rather strong impression. I did see a red flag when i read the CG description. Another of my first impressions was- Oh man i really want those cargo racks. Then- Gees this is gonna be a tough one, even with a Panther.
I think there is an absolute wicked easy solution to the scenario. Just give all participants two of each rack. Then >POOF< all of the pay for advantage is gone, erased, like it never happened. They could also make them available for credits after the CG. Maybe limit two of each for a ship.
I am all for players supporting the game. I do not want to see this unique master piece disappear. I totally understand, especially in todays evaporative individual wealth world, not every player can support those wishes. I do not want them to be or feel left out, punished for their practical reasons of not purchasing a Panther. Real life food and bills outweighs everything, survival is pinnacle.
I do hope Fdev understand this, read what you stated Angry Aunt (lol), you know I mean Agony Aunt.
And find a way not to separate their player base, but bring them closer together. Because that's way more fun and engaging to cooperate and share Elite together.Note-There are good statements from both sides. Don't look too deeply, keep it simple, causal factor in this situation- two of each rather than one a piece. Can mean the difference of a player feeling equal and worthy, or a player feeling left out and disregarded.
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
There is nothing to compete for. You can deliver 1 tonne of any required commodity in a Sidewinder and you'll get the pre-engineered racks.
Doesn't the 75% bracket give you 2 cargo racks each (5 & 6 class)?
So technically you do compete for that - with the CG running over 4 weeks I'd have to monitor my standing regularly and with more and more PC2 owners and me not really being motivated enough to buy a dedicated hauler again (burned out after recently grinding Elite Trade rank, and before that Colonisation) I'm tapping out early is what I'm saying.
The key point of that sentence you quoted was that I'm participating in the CG is because of the tier 100% reward being of the FOMO nature, not because I particularly enjoy the underlying activity or because I think achieving the 75% is particularly difficult (but we'll only know for sure when the CG has ended). Delivering 1t is exactly what I'm planning to do, and to see what kind of shenanigans are happening in Open, as well as seeing the PC2 models in-game.
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
Yeah, if you are after 1 extra set. But at least you can get with pretty much no effort required. There is a possibility of these racks coming to a Tech Broker also, which would mean anyone can get as many as they want. We'll see.
(Just for the record, personally I'm not a fan of "everyone wins" at all and would much more prefer for unique rewards to actually cost some effort, but hey ho - and then it would actually be P2W).
I’m just cynical enough to point out that the massive wave of “it’s P2W!!” moralizing didn’t happen when the Panther Clipper first appeared. Giving people 444 extra tons of space and better maneuverability in a mostly un-masslockable cargo ship did not result in any pearl clutching threads. Mostly everyone shrugged and either bought it or didn’t for whatever reasons their brains had to offer.
It was only when a CG appeared for two to four cargo holds that add 33 to 66 tons of space to any ship did said threads and pearl clutching occur.
444 more cargo at once? “Aww, aren’t you sweet”.
66 more tons in cargo holds? “Hello, Human Resources?”
It was only when a CG appeared for two to four cargo holds that add 33 to 66 tons of space to any ship did said threads and pearl clutching occur.
444 more cargo at once? “Aww, aren’t you sweet”.
66 more tons in cargo holds? “Hello, Human Resources?”
i have bought the panther corsaier mandaly type eight and the cobra,p2w no way,just like new ships,still using my cutter on the cg and corvette and pythons in cz.asp for planet stuff,can see the fact i spent years getting the mats etc to upgrade these ship where others have just bought arx and have engineered ships in there store straight away,its the way games have gone noww,shame realy as no one realy has to work to climb the ladder.
The ones you don't agree with.
Not very helpful.
The CG is happening now. It would be less P2W if the CG happened in 3 months after people buy it for credits instead of Arx, but still a non-zero amount. Even if the new modules get an engineer to unlock or a tech broker to sell, that only lessens the impact, it doesnt destroy it. Consider, for a moment, if the pre-engineered SCO were not immediately added to Xeno techbrokers after Cocijo fell.
Sure they did. Maybe not in the exact words, but there's plenty of 'boycott the clipper' 'do not reward FDev for continuing to push the monetization of fomo' where people pointed out paying cash for the advantage was bad.
And say what you will about YouTubers needing to be sensational for clicks, but Yamicks has called early access p2w since it started. Oh look, we have continued to slip down the slope he said he was worried would happen.
Having this CG when the PC has just been released may just be a coincidence, but when Frontier is emphasising that each title has to pay its way, that seems unlikely. I guess those who are not okay with the direction of monitorization are unlikely to be swayed by this bit of incentivising.