Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?

[SteveWW57]

The current 75% threshold is 2476 tons, after about 4 days. That is ONE cutter trip for four days so far. One cutter trip per day is likely to ensure a 75% placing. You could take the view that those shelling out real bucks for the PC2 advantage let the need for a perceived advantage affect their judgement.

With this threshold, a T8 doing 2 trips per day would be a cakewalk. A CMDR could devote 15-30 minutes per day to the CG and then spend the rest of the time doing other interesting stuff. Like looking for a titan drive component to buy the pre-engineered FSD for the PC2. Or not.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Inara provides some insight to the current CG - assuming all of the top 75% are using PC II to haul...

Delivered so far: 241,304,796/500,000,000 (48.26%) 240+ million units!

Stats:

The top 10 have done literally hundreds of trips each
Top 25% have done a minimum of 12 trips
Top 50% a minimum of 6 trips
Top 75% a minimum of 2!

Or, if I was delivering in my 720t Cutter, to be at the top of the 75% group, I'd have needed to do 10 trips so far. (a couple of hours at worst)

Of course, not everyone has a Cutter, it is rank locked, and perhaps they won't fly a T-9 (I prefer to not do so) so have to fly a T8 (much nicer) so have to do 20 trips to be in the same place. Poor soul in a Sidey is going to be hard pushed, it is true...

Of course, delivering nearly 7k of commodities is going to take more trips in anything other than a PC II to stay at the top of the 75% section, but no more so than anyone delivering in anything but a Cutter / T-9 to be in the bottom percentile of that same 75% target.

Edit: Maffs...

 

[SteveWW57]

Inara provides some insight to the current CG - assuming all of the top 75% are using PC II to haul...

Delivered so far: 241,304,796/500,000,000 (48.26%) 240+ million units!

Stats:

View attachment 435880

The top 10 have done literally hundreds of trips each
Top 25% have done a minimum of 15 trips
Top 50% a minimum of 7 trips
Top 75% a minimum of 3!

Or, if I was delivering in my 720t Cutter, to be at the top of the 75% group, I'd have needed to do 10 trips so far. (a couple of hours at worst)

Of course, not everyone has a Cutter, it is rank locked, and perhaps they won't fly a T-9 (I prefer to not do so) so have to fly a T8 (much nicer) so have to do 20 trips to be in the same place. Poor soul in a Sidey is going to be hard pushed, it is true...

Of course, delivering nearly 7k of commodities is going to take more trips in anything other than a PC II to stay at the top of the 75% section, but no more so than anyone delivering in anything but a Cutter / T-9 to be in the bottom percentile of that same 75% target.

The relevant issue is how many CMDRs want to be in the top 75% to get two of each rack. All those minimum contributors are not competing.

 

[Rat Catcher]

All those minimum contributors are not competing.

I was on the "WIN!" part of the discuussion in particular...
Filthy casuals like me are certainly not competing, just getting the "I joined in" badge and some goodies.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Its important to understand what data is before using it in an argument.

By your (incorrect) interpretation, there are 50,000 people participating in Clippers. If that was true, I think people in London would be able to hear the party going on in Cambridge.

I made no such interpretation sir!
Any such interpretation is entirely of your own creation.
My entire post was in regards to the presumably new players using T6 ships.

 

[Rat Catcher]

By your (incorrect) interpretation, there are 50,000 people participating in Clippers.

I just used your quote for an example...
My highly caffienated brain went into "what if..." mode!

50.4k Kitties passed through in 24 hours (it is still a massive number!)
But, if my memory serves from multiple space CZ participated in recently, if a FC arrives and dumps its load via a Kitty, that ship will not be counted as it hasn't exirted the system... (In those CZ systems there was never a count of FDL or Corvette whilst I was busy)

So the actual number of PC II active in the system might be even larger, assuming the full complement (minus a couple of the gank squadron FCs that normally turn up) of FCs inhabiting the system are being emptied by nothing but PC II.

Perhaps there is "Pizzas all round" in Cambridge currently!

 

[SteveWW57]

I was on the "WIN!" part of the discuussion in particular...
Filthy casuals like me are certainly not competing, just getting the "I joined in" badge and some goodies.

Not to mention that you are helping others hit the 75% mark by your participation.

 

[Florenus]

I agree that it doesn't look good. But at least at some point Panther will become available to all commanders for credits.
What I really have a problem with is the fact that Panther Clipper actually made Type-9 completely obsolete. Instead of adding options to choose from and ship variety, they practically limit them. Now everyone will be flying PCs.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Inara provides some insight to the current CG - assuming all of the top 75% are using PC II to haul...

Delivered so far: 241,304,796/500,000,000 (48.26%) 240+ million units!

Stats:

View attachment 435880

The top 10 have done literally hundreds of trips each
Top 25% have done a minimum of 12 trips
Top 50% a minimum of 6 trips
Top 75% a minimum of 2!

Or, if I was delivering in my 720t Cutter, to be at the top of the 75% group, I'd have needed to do 10 trips so far. (a couple of hours at worst)

Of course, not everyone has a Cutter, it is rank locked, and perhaps they won't fly a T-9 (I prefer to not do so) so have to fly a T8 (much nicer) so have to do 20 trips to be in the same place. Poor soul in a Sidey is going to be hard pushed, it is true...

Of course, delivering nearly 7k of commodities is going to take more trips in anything other than a PC II to stay at the top of the 75% section, but no more so than anyone delivering in anything but a Cutter / T-9 to be in the bottom percentile of that same 75% target.

Edit: Maffs...

Type 9 technically can haul a bit more than a Cutter, but boy is it slow compared to the Cutter, meaning it takes a bit longer to get in and out of stations, so it probably balances out.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I just used your quote for an example...
My highly caffienated brain went into "what if..." mode!

View attachment 435884

50.4k Kitties passed through in 24 hours (it is still a massive number!)
But, if my memory serves from multiple space CZ participated in recently, if a FC arrives and dumps its load via a Kitty, that ship will not be counted as it hasn't exirted the system... (In those CZ systems there was never a count of FDL or Corvette whilst I was busy)

So the actual number of PC II active in the system might be even larger, assuming the full complement (minus a couple of the gank squadron FCs that normally turn up) of FCs inhabiting the system are being emptied by nothing but PC II.

Perhaps there is "Pizzas all round" in Cambridge currently!

Anyone in Cambridge available to swing by Frontier's offices and check? Or go to the local pizza place and see if the workers are frazzled.

 

[zimms]

The community is competing for a reward (1 extra cargo rack each) that's not obtainable any other way and if you pay some money, you basically get a ~1.4 multiplier in the competition.

Yes, it's clearly a form of P2W. No, it's not a big deal imho. It's just part of the monetization of modern games especially if you add the acronyms GAAS and MMO into the mix. If you play a game that much, it's only fair to throw a buck in the developers' direction every now and then.

But I do find it kinda funny how much like a cult the forum sometimes reacts and the mental gymnastics involved. P2W is seen as "bad" and Frontier would never do anything "bad", therefore this isn't P2W.

If Premium ammo needed Arx instead of materials to synthesise the same people would use the same arguments to tell you it's not P2W.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

What I really have a problem with is the fact that Panther Clipper actually made Type-9 completely obsolete. Instead of adding options to choose from and ship variety, they practically limit them. Now everyone will be flying PCs.

This has been argued about before. My view: People want new ships, and new ships need to be "better" than the old ones to be accepted. If you want the devs to keep throwing new stuff at the players, you have to accept that some old content gets left behind. Imagine they had released a Panther Clipper that's just as good as a T-9 - you know very well how the community had moaned and bicked about that, calling the ship lackluster and the devs lazy.

In a sense, it's "progress". You wouldn't complain how it's a shame that the old Model T has been replaced by much better cars, would you?

 

[Mr Lindsay]

Inara provides some insight to the current CG - assuming all of the top 75% are using PC II to haul...

Delivered so far: 241,304,796/500,000,000 (48.26%) 240+ million units!

Stats:

View attachment 435880

The top 10 have done literally hundreds of trips each
Top 25% have done a minimum of 12 trips
Top 50% a minimum of 6 trips
Top 75% a minimum of 2!

Or, if I was delivering in my 720t Cutter, to be at the top of the 75% group, I'd have needed to do 10 trips so far. (a couple of hours at worst)

Of course, not everyone has a Cutter, it is rank locked, and perhaps they won't fly a T-9 (I prefer to not do so) so have to fly a T8 (much nicer) so have to do 20 trips to be in the same place. Poor soul in a Sidey is going to be hard pushed, it is true...

Of course, delivering nearly 7k of commodities is going to take more trips in anything other than a PC II to stay at the top of the 75% section, but no more so than anyone delivering in anything but a Cutter / T-9 to be in the bottom percentile of that same 75% target.

Edit: Maffs...

7000T isn't needed for 75%, it's currently 2500T. 4 trips in your 720T Cutter, rather than 10!
EDIT: (I see what you were talking about on re-reading, but I do think the Top of the 75% is not a relevant number for discussion and so unnecessarily confusing to use that as the metric.)

And as quirks of mathematics goes, that the 75% cut-off is exactly 2x1238T max Panther Loads is quite interesting.
If it goes up by 1 Tonne, then a Panther will need to have done 3 trips, to the Cutter/T9's 4 trips.

 

[SteveWW57]

7000T isn't needed for 75%, it's currently 2500T. 4 trips in your 720T Cutter, rather than 10!
EDIT: (I see what you were talking about on re-reading, but I do think the Top of the 75% is not a relevant number for discussion and so unnecessarily confusing to use that as the metric.)

And as quirks of mathematics goes, that the 75% cut-off is exactly 2x1238T max Panther Loads is quite interesting.
If it goes up by 1 Tonne, then a Panther will need to have done 3 trips, to the Cutter/T9's 4 trips.

He said
"to be at the top of the 75% group"
This caught me out on reading his post initially too. I think that you need to be at this level to help keep in the 75% band.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Right. To be a bit sarcastic, I've won the CG now.

I just delivered three Clipper loads of 1152 tons to the CG, I'm now somewhat firmly in the 75% bracket. I probably would have skipped the CG if it wasn't for a certain infatuation I still have for the Clipper - that might fade soon, in general I HATE hauling and just don't do it. Ever. I hate flying the Cutter and T-9, but the Clipper, at least for now, is kind of fun.

So yeah. I probably would not have taken part in this CG if it wasn't for our new shiny toy. I've skipped many a CG with shiny rewards because I just don't haul. Ever. But with the PC, I did.

Make of that datapoint what you will .

 

[Florenus]

This has been argued about before. My view: People want new ships, and new ships need to be "better" than the old ones to be accepted. If you want the devs to keep throwing new stuff at the players, you have to accept that some old content gets left behind. Imagine they had released a Panther Clipper that's just as good as a T-9 - you know very well how the community had moaned and bicked about that, calling the ship lackluster and the devs lazy.

In a sense, it's "progress". You wouldn't complain how it's a shame that the old Model T has been replaced by much better cars, would you?

In RL, if you insist on making that comparison, there's usually much bigger variety of new models, when technology is moving forward, to choose from than just one.

Adding new model that makes old ones obsolete limits ship variety and therefore isn't that good for the game. On paper we might have a lot of ships to choose from, but instead of dozens of ship models flying around, everyone is flying the one that makes sense. And all this, because they must sell new model somehow, so they don't want to add option - they must make it obligatory to have the new one.
While previous ships sporting new SCO handling are better in that regard, I can still fly any other old ship and not feel like I'm deliberately crippling myself too much, even if they aren't as good at handling new drives. I still have some options.
I like how Type-9 looks. I have spent lots of ARX on cosmetics. Now that ship has become completely worthless.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

In RL, if you insist on making that comparison, there's usually much bigger variety of new models, when technology is moving forward, to choose from than just one.

Adding new model that makes old ones obsolete limits ship variety and therefore isn't that good for the game. On paper we might have a lot of ships to choose from, but instead of dozens of ship models flying around, everyone is flying the one that makes sense. And all this, because they must sell new model somehow, so they don't want to add option - they must make it obligatory to have the new one.
While previous ships sporting new SCO handling are better in that regard, I can still fly any other old ship and not feel like I'm deliberately crippling myself too much, even if they aren't as good at handling new drives. I still have some options.
I like how Type-9 looks. I have spent lots of ARX on cosmetics. Now that ship has become completely worthless.

You can still fly the T-9 and Cutter, they are still good haulers, and people argue that the Cutter is still the better overall ship.

Seriously, answer my question. How do you think the community reaction would have been if any of the new ships wasn't better, but just as mediocre as all the other ones. This is exactly the issue that's been discussed ad nauseum when people asked "new ships when?". New ships need to stand out, or they are just a rehash of the old ones.

 

[Cmdr Sylveste]

I'm in the top 25%, and I don't own a PC2. Do I get a Luddite themed "old school" I win prize?

 

[aRJay]

I'm in the top 25%, and I don't own a PC2. Do I get a Luddite themed "old school" I win prize?

Only if you also insist on using FA-Off and Fixed weapons.

 

[Joe Cool]

I've won the CG now.

Sorry, not possible.
I've won this CG

But I'll continue shipping in my (free ARX) PCII as 10x market rate is too good an opportunity to refuse.
Need to stockpile those credits for the shiny new Squadron Carrier