Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?

[Greasetrap42]

I wonder if anyone who paid for PCII will respond here with statement that a main reason for purchase is winning anything, and not those like...

I purchased the PCII to make colonization easier. Absolutely. There was no other reason for me to purchase it. My dedicated bulk transport Cutter worked fine, but the PCII is definitely better.

The PCII is the first ship I have purchased with ARX. I am fully against the idea of ships being sold for ARX. But it is the path Frontier is going down. The slippery slope is growing.

Why didn't I wait 3 months? Because the equivalent time lost in hauling would be significant compared to the cost of purchasing the PCII. Doing colonisation, it doesn't make sense not to purchase it for ARX.

 

[Greasetrap42]

I think the answer here is a resounding yes. The new CG is in effect an extra reward to those who opened their wallets.

I purchased the PC II for colonisation because it will definitely reduce the time to complete each facility. I had no idea this CG was going to happen.

I am using my new PC II for the new CG. Not for any reason other than its better for bulk trade than any other ship I have.

 

[Greasetrap42]

The single biggest factor in CG progress for any commander, is time and it's disingenuous to pretend the majority of players have the same amount to invest, in order to make a point that that isn't a factor if we just pretend it isn't and we also pretend Carriers don't exist either.

I agree 100%. It all comes down to time. 55% increase over the course of many hours is quite significant.

In the current CG I make 62 Million per load of CMM Composite using the PC II. This particular CG could potentially reach 10,000 units to reach 75%... there is no way to know. I want the extra cargo rack reward. For this CG why would I switch ship to my Cutter? What possible benefit is there?

 

[WillFrog]

I see the pay. I do not see the win. What are you winning, exactly?

You don't need a PC to make it into the top 75%. If it keeps growing at the rate it's been doing (and they extend it), it'll top out at, what, 21,000? That's at most four hours of hauling at a relaxed pace in a Cutter or T9, and you've got a month to do it.

The only other thing you'll be slightly missing out on by not having a Panther Clipper is more credits, which, well, who cares? There's tons of ways to make credits in this game. Hell, you can follow Spansh's Exomastery list around the Bubble in a noob Sidewinder and make like 8 billion. Not squeezing the absolute maximum possible profit out of this CG is hardly the end of the world.

The merest hint of a possibility of perhaps if you try really hard maybe missing out on something, and people lose their entire minds. Relax already.

 

[Greasetrap42]

I see the pay. I do not see the win. What are you winning exactly?

Are you saying you are not using your PC II in this CG in favor of a different ship?

 

[kofeyh]

I agree 100%. It all comes down to time. 55% increase over the course of many hours is quite significant.

In the current CG I make 62 Million per load of CMM Composite using the PC II. This particular CG could potentially reach 10,000 units to reach 75%... there is no way to know. I want the extra cargo rack reward. For this CG why would I switch ship to my Cutter? What possible benefit is there?

Top 75%, not top 25% for the extra racks. So in fact a fifth of whatever potential number you way wish to pluck from thin air.

Whilst the Panther Clipper is indeed helpful, math is important when making an argument based on math.

The CG also goes for an entire month. So this was always going to be one that required some level of commitment, irrespective of whatever else is going on.

But the comments seen like the world is ending. It's just a CG with a handful of modules. Frontier probably thought it was a good way to give people something to do and to get a nice reward for.

Boy were they mistaken, apparently.

 

[WillFrog]

Are you saying you are not using your PC II in this CG in favor of a different ship?

No, of course I am. But if I didn't have it, I'd use my Cutter instead. What would I lose out on? Nothing but a few credits. Why does that matter? I already have billions.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Top 75%, not top 25% for the extra racks.

Whilst the Panther Clipper is indeed helpful, math is important when making an argument based on math.

Did I not say 75% in my post?

I am expecting the extra racks to be quite popular, even for alts. There is no way to know, but I remember that other CG maybe a year ago where the min amount for the reward grew quite large.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Are you saying you are not using your PC II in this CG in favor of a different ship?

No, of course I am.

Hmmm... and why is that? Is it perhaps the best ship available ingame for a certain task? And this task takes time and rewards credits?

 

[WillFrog]

Hmmm... and why is that? Is it perhaps the best ship available ingame for a certain task? And this task takes time and rewards credits?

Again, yes. Again, why does it matter?

Some people might make more profit than me! Oh noes!

 

[kofeyh]

Did I not say 75% in my post?

I am expecting the extra racks to be quite popular, even for alts. There is no way to know, but I remember that other CG maybe a year ago where the min amount for the reward grew quite large.

It'll go for a month, so anyone with a lot of time for the game has an implicit advantage over anyone who doesn't, which will be the biggest factor by far.

The modules will be great for medium ships, arguably more so than large, where they would have much more value.

That anyone can score two by just turning up in a sidewinder with 1 commodity means really anyone can score a set.

I get the who p2w angle but given this goes for a month, anyone who has abundant time for Elite is going to come out on top, irrespective of whatever ships exist.

Simply put, the time factor outweighs any outsized factor of the Panther Clipper, and I am quite sure a chunk of the community doesn't give one tot about the CG at all and are busy continuing to expand the bubble.

People tend to believe their specific niche concern is automatically the global one.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

What are you winning exactly?

A time advantage over other players who didn't open their wallets.

 

[WillFrog]

A time advantage over other players who didn't open their wallets.

Meaning in that same time, you can shift a bit more cargo and make a bit more money. So what? Why is this important? If it's pay to win, then someone must be losing by not paying, but who is losing out here because I get a bit more imaginary space money than I otherwise would have?

 

[Greasetrap42]

I get the who p2w angle but given this goes for a month, anyone who has abundant time for Elite is going to come out on top, irrespective of whatever ships exist.

You do understand that player time is the fundamental commodity in this game for most activities. It behaves as both the reward and the punishment. Upgrading ships & modules reduces player time to complete activities. Activities take time, and improved items reduces this. Anybody that has played this game since 2013 should understand this.

If a purchasable item reduces time, that provides an advantage.


Edit: Which is why I purchased the PC II. It is very advantagious for building colonies, which takes enormous time. Over the course of the next 3 months the amount of time that I save will be significant.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

To be blunt, it would not surprise me if Frontier just give people the extra modules because of the constant complaint.

Oh no, a competition, it's unfair! There's already a participation prize for rocking up with a single commodity.

Okay, so, if Frontier said they would give out both sets of cargo racks regardless of percentage, are you going to continue to complain?

I don't think they will do that. They might make the new modules available later, perhaps via the tech broker.

Its not about its being a competition - CGs always have that competitive element. Its about how that competitive element can be assisted by opening your wallet.

As for the last question - yup, that would be better as it only leaves position in the CG as an issue, and unfortunately, with the power creep of new ships, this issue will likely come up every time to some extent. Still, there is a bit of a difference with, for example, a new OP combat ship followed by a combat CG. You can already make ships that delete most enemies quickly, so even a new OP combat ship wouldn't really affect the rankings of people doing a combat CG.

If the PC had been a more balanced ship, let's say it was slower than a type 9 or had less jump range, then it wouldn't have been an issue either, as moving cargo would have been comparable between the existing and new ships.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The 75% cut off is only 1500 at the moment, that’s only a couple cutter loads. If you can’t stay in the 75% bracket it’s certainly not because you don’t have a PC. It also means you probably would be nowhere near being able to afford one even if it was released for credits right now.

Keep in mind though, that only exists because some people are fine with just getting one set. Its good that FD don't put in a sliding minimum contribution to get the reward, because that would have meant more people wouldn't bother or they would be competitive. Imagine for example they had made 75% the cut off for one set and 50% the cut off for two sets! Some might argue perhaps that it should be that way, but kudos for FD not going down that road.

If everyone was competitive, then for every person getting into the top 75%, someone else would be pushed out of the top 75%. That's how percentages work, and at that point, PC owners would have a very clear advantage.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I purchased the PCII to make colonization easier. Absolutely. There was no other reason for me to purchase it. My dedicated bulk transport Cutter worked fine, but the PCII is definitely better.

The PCII is the first ship I have purchased with ARX. I am fully against the idea of ships being sold for ARX. But it is the path Frontier is going down. The slippery slope is growing.

Why didn't I wait 3 months? Because the equivalent time lost in hauling would be significant compared to the cost of purchasing the PCII. Doing colonisation, it doesn't make sense not to purchase it for ARX.

Thankfully I'm not heavily into Colonization yet, although I have plans to set up my own system. For the moment i'm just occasionally helping out a squadron mate with theirs.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I see the pay. I do not see the win. What are you winning, exactly?

People keep asking this.

The answer is time.

Lets say you and another player have both got into the top 75% and you are both fine with that, you just want the extra modules.. Current cut off is 10,000 tons and you are both just over that. A week later, the cut off is now 12,000.

So you both go, damn, need to make more deliveries, i still want those extra modules.

Now, you, in your PC, only need 2 runs to get back into the top 75%, but the person without needs 3 runs to do the same. You have gained a time advantage over the person who hasn't opened their wallet.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

It'll go for a month, so anyone with a lot of time for the game has an implicit advantage over anyone who doesn't, which will be the biggest factor by far.

The modules will be great for medium ships, arguably more so than large, where they would have much more value.

That anyone can score two by just turning up in a sidewinder with 1 commodity means really anyone can score a set.

I get the who p2w angle but given this goes for a month, anyone who has abundant time for Elite is going to come out on top, irrespective of whatever ships exist.

Simply put, the time factor outweighs any outsized factor of the Panther Clipper, and I am quite sure a chunk of the community doesn't give one tot about the CG at all and are busy continuing to expand the bubble.

People tend to believe their specific niche concern is automatically the global one.

Which is why its important to compare like for like people when discussing P2W.

Otherwise you get arguments that someone in a Vulture could haul more goods than someone in a type 9 if they put in more time. Yes, because a play time advantage is important in CGs for result, and the PC gives a time advantage to anyone who bought one. They can haul more than an equivalent player in the same time, so they can put in less effort for the same gain or more gain for equal effort.

 

[kofeyh]

I don't think they will do that. They might make the new modules available later, perhaps via the tech broker.

Perhaps; we don't know what they might do. Which is why I don't generally get obsessed about relatively minor concerns, because I cannot know what is coming.

It is a game, that should be enjoyed. I try not to suck the fun out as a result. Arguments about relative fairness have existed since Beta, to be fair, so I have long since lost count or really much of a care factor.

Play, or don't, use Arx, or don't. I'm not your mother.

I for sure know Frontier probably thought it would be a fun CG and gave people a month to make some credits.