Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?

[Agony_Aunt]

In this CG a fleet carrier is no advantage at all.

Using a carrier means you have to shift every ton twice instead of once. In cases of many jumps or long SC to stations that might be worthwhile, but in this CG neither of those factors apply. It's only half the time to haul straight.

Well, this side topic came up because it was suggested that finding places to buy stuff was getting harder as people are buying it all up quickly, forcing people to travel further.

There's always going to be an inflection point where its going to be quicker to jump to a system in a FC, make many runs to fill up the FC, and then park as close as you can to Minerva to unload, vs doing runs back and forth to a distant system. Not sure what that point is or whether its been reached yet. Maybe around 6 jumps distance makes the FC method quicker?

 

[Brrokk]

Depends on if you luck out and can drop a carrier next to the station.

No, it really doesn't depend on that. Shifting every ton once will always be quicker than shifting it twice. That's even before you consider carrier jump times.

 

[anShpan]

OK... I've paid to win. ED[O] is all about P2W. As it is. Chronologically, I've paid:
1. RTX 4060 when understood, that I needed something decent for ED.
2. Used Saitek X52 when realized that HOTAS brings direct benefits.
3. ARX Pmk2 Stellar.
4. ARX T-8 Stellar.
5. ARX Mandalay base.
6. Upgraded HOTAS to WinWin (name speaks for itsefl - pure P2W) stick + Thrustmaster TWCS.
7. ARX Cobra V base.
8. ARX Corsair Stellar.
9. ARX PC II Stellar.

What did I win you ask... Answer: Galaxy and forging my own way, not just another CG and some credits.
Was it worth it? No, it's not: I should go for item 6 from the beginning and take Corsair base instead of Stellar. The rest I would repeat again without a single doubt(s).

P.S. forgot to mention upgrade of dedicated to ED PC from Xeon e5-1650 v2 to Ryzen 9600x somewhere between 4 and 5...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

No, it really doesn't depend on that. Shifting every ton once will always be quicker than shifting it twice. That's even before you consider carrier jump times.

You can always set your jumps for when you end your session so its at the destination for when you're ready to log back in. This thing is going on for 4 weeks so will always be plenty of time to jump your carrier when you're taking a break, unless you're the sort of person who can fill/empty a carrier in a single sitting!

We can play with some numbers.

Let's assume no long SC distances at either end. A hyperspace jump and alignment ready for next jump takes about 1 minute on average. Let's assume you can park the FC around the same planet the source station is and the time from FC launch to station and docked is... 2 mins? Assume same 2 mins for the return, especially since unloading to FC can take quite a few seconds with no way to make it faster (loading is quicker). For the non-FC version, we can assume a 2 minute SCO run to the station and docking. 1 minute to undock and align to jump. At the delivery end, we most likely have at least 1, if not 2 jumps to Minerva from wherever we are parked. Let's be generous and assume we get a slot 1 jump away.

So, FC version per run: 2 mins (FC to station to buy) + 2 mins (station to FC to store) + 0 mins (offline jump - not every time, just including to make a note) + 1 min (undock and align for jump) + 1 min (jump) + 2 mins (FC to station to deliver) + 1 min (undock and align) + 1 min (jump) + 2 mins (return to FC for next run).

Non FC version (variable jumps): 1 min (undock and align) + 1 min x N (N = number of jumps to target system) + 2 mins (in target system to SCO and dock and buy) + 1 min (undock and align) + 1 min x N (number of jumps) + 2 mins (to make it to delivery station and dock).

FC total time to get at least 1 unit transferred is 12 mins.

Direct (not using FC) is 6 mins + 2 mins per jump (1 min extra each way).

This roughly means that if you need to make 3 jumps or less, you might as well not use the FC. Above 3 jumps then the FC method becomes more efficient.

Play with the numbers how you like if you don't like the numbers i'm assuming, there will still be a point at which the FC becomes more efficient.

The question is, will there ever be a point where you can't get a full cargo hold in every run at a system within 3 jumps?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

OK... I've paid to win. ED[O] is all about P2W. As it is. Chronologically, I've paid:
1. RTX 4060 when understood, that I needed something decent for ED.
2. Used Saitek X52 when realized that HOTAS brings direct benefits.
3. ARX Pmk2 Stellar.
4. ARX T-8 Stellar.
5. ARX Mandalay base.
6. Upgraded HOTAS to WinWin (name speaks for itsefl - pure P2W) stick + Thrustmaster TWCS.
7. ARX Cobra V base.
8. ARX Corsair Stellar.
9. ARX PC II Stellar.

What did I win you ask... Answer: Galaxy and forging my own way, not just another CG and some credits.
Was it worth it? No, it's not: I should go for item 6 from the beginning and take Corsair base instead of Stellar. The rest I would repeat again without a single doubt(s).

P.S. forgot to mention upgrade of dedicated to ED PC from Xeon e5-1650 v2 to Ryzen 9600x somewhere between 4 and 5...

Siliness aside about hardware somehow being connected with P2W (although, I recently learned in Arena Commander in Star Citizen, damage output is affected by framerate - the better your rig, the better your framerate, the more damage you do!), but with regards to buying ships what you actually won was time. Time you didn't have to spend earning credits to buy those ships. Time you didn't have to spend flying to a station that has those ships in stock and buying them then moving them where you wanted them.

Time after all is the most valuable and limited resource we possess and we feel it more acutely as we get older.

 

[Morbad]

Wow, thank you for someone actually directly answering the question.

I never even really thought about the deploying and destroying the pre-built ships, thinking as soon as you deployed you'd want to modify/engineer and then wouldn't want to destroy... but yes, now you mention it, I can see situations where you wouldn't care about it.

Remember, the first incarnation of seeking luxuries? Plenty of CMDRs stumbled upon the fact that peak credits per-hour, when these signal sources were sufficiently close to a station with the requisite commodity, could be attained by buying a cargo ship, stripping the shield generator, flying to the luxury trader, watching the transaction complete, ramming the luxury trader, exploding, and respawning to do the same thing over again.

Took Frontier almost a decade to go from considering this sort of thing an exploit to actively monetizing it.

Shifting every ton once will always be quicker than shifting it twice.

It should be obvious that, in many situations, multiple shorter trips can be faster than fewer longer trips.

This is doubly true in a game that lets you teleport directly back to a fleet carrier after smashing your Arx-bought cargo shuttle, requiring only one leg of the unloading trip be made.

OK... I've paid to win. ED[O] is all about P2W. As it is. Chronologically, I've paid:
1. RTX 4060 when understood, that I needed something decent for ED.
2. Used Saitek X52 when realized that HOTAS brings direct benefits.
3. ARX Pmk2 Stellar.
4. ARX T-8 Stellar.
5. ARX Mandalay base.
6. Upgraded HOTAS to WinWin (name speaks for itsefl - pure P2W) stick + Thrustmaster TWCS.
7. ARX Cobra V base.
8. ARX Corsair Stellar.
9. ARX PC II Stellar.

What did I win you ask... Answer: Galaxy and forging my own way, not just another CG and some credits.
Was it worth it? No, it's not: I should go for item 6 from the beginning and take Corsair base instead of Stellar. The rest I would repeat again without a single doubt(s).

P.S. forgot to mention upgrade of dedicated to ED PC from Xeon e5-1650 v2 to Ryzen 9600x somewhere between 4 and 5...

The game does a pretty good job in minimizing the performance differences between controls, so those can be safely ignored, outside of a few outlier tasks. EDO performance is pretty poor, but the game will run passably well on fairly modest hardware, especially if one is willing to allow the game to look like ass.

Regardless, buying something that absolutely can be leveraged to provide an in-game/in-character advantage, then not using it to do so, does not negate the option.

 

[Stealthie]

In this CG a fleet carrier is no advantage at all.

Using a carrier means you have to shift every ton twice instead of once. In cases of many jumps or long SC to stations that might be worthwhile, but in this CG neither of those factors apply. It's only half the time to haul straight.

Not sure about that.

Prior to FCs, I did my time, racing around like part of a swarm of locusts, searching for the next source of a commodity.
It's MUCH less hassle to just find a source a couple of hundred Ly from the CG and trundle along, loading up an FC, before making one jump to the CG to offload.


On topic, I agree with the OP but... I don't care.

I don't mean that dismissively.
Thing is, there's a heap of different activities in ED and they have all, at some point, provided CGs that rewarded players with something special.
If AXers got something special as a reward for exploding space-cabbages, or Exobiologists got something special for scanning dirt, there's no point in getting upset about it if it's not an activity I'm interested in doing.

The fact that, for the next 3 months, some players will have an advantage over others in cargo-hauling CGs just isn't something that it's worth losing sleep over.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

On topic, I agree with the OP but... I don't care.

LOL, great answer, and a perfectly valid one.

The fact that, for the next 3 months, some players will have an advantage over others in cargo-hauling CGs just isn't something that it's worth losing sleep over.

Not losing sleep over it, wanted to discuss it because FD seem to be getting more and more on the nose with P2W elements in the game and I'd hate to see it become even more P2W as time goes by, so some push back now might save us from much worse stuff in the future. If people keep saying "this is fine" then the game might end up like Store Citizen.

 

[Stealthie]

LOL, great answer, and a perfectly valid one.

Like I said, I don't mean that in a "sucks to be a peasant" sort of way.

I just accept that there are different aspects of the game that have given people rewards that I didn't get because I chose not to participate in that activity.
Honestly, at this rate, I doubt I'll ever own more Prismatic shields, Packhounds or Mining Lances 'cos I just CBA wading through the new PP2 stuff.

If ED was, say, a racing game or an Arena FPS, P2W would be more of an issue because the advantage would be immediate.
Somebody else's gain IS your immediate loss.
In a game like ED, it's not quite so arbitrary. Somebody else can have a gain but you don't really have much of a loss.

 

[KRISXR]

Yeah, if you are after 1 extra set. But at least you can get with pretty much no effort required. There is a possibility of these racks coming to a Tech Broker also, which would mean anyone can get as many as they want. We'll see.

(Just for the record, personally I'm not a fan of "everyone wins" at all and would much more prefer for unique rewards to actually cost some effort, but hey ho - and then it would actually be P2W).

I do not in the least like the everybody gets a ribbon award either. I honestly hate that crap. It promotes self centered-nes. I stated that solution because of the timing of this CG. Another player had stated if the CG was before the launch, no issue at all, a level playing field. Since it wasn't, than ya a slight advantage and an incentive to spend. It's the same as- poor kid can't further his education, has to struggle, maybe even not be healthy, or survive. Rich kid- doesn't have a care in the world about any of that. Heck isn't even aware of it. Looks down on the less fortunate. It's a symptom of a self centered society, that happens to award some, and destroy others, while no one even notices. It is not the correct way of humanity. Yet it's dominant, and destructive. My thought was to bring the playing field back to an even level.

Don't beat me up for that, but any reader who wants to, carry it, and think about it. Because it's gross.

Having the cargo racks offered at tech dealers also takes the pressure off the player who wants those but aren't able to compete for them, whether it's time or money. But those players don't know that is even going to happen. Speculation.

From Burr's latest video:

"There's no two ways about it, this CG has absoloutely been designed and engineered specifically to encourage more sales of the Panther Clipper, and in offering the cargo rack rewards for essentially spending money in the game, Frontier is pushing extremely close, possibly over, the line of Pay to Win."

Thank you CMDR Burr.

I'm still rather new, I started watching the Burr Pit last november. My impression of this dynamic duo is they are very even keeled, honest, thoughtful, and a very strong asset for Elite and the community. I wish I was their neighbor, because I'd fix their car and paint their house, for free, maybe throw me a meal in return. Just good people. It doesn't surprise me at all that they saw an incongruity with the new CG.

 

[aRJay]

There are currently readily available sources of what is needed no more than 2 jumps away. Give it a few days and that might change.

One jump out and two jumps back for me today, with a little surprise on one return trip when an NPC FAS tried and failed to interdict me.

Depends on if you luck out and can drop a carrier next to the station.

It is a Trailblazer system aren’t they supposed to be fully blocked with parked FCs?

I am not going to jump mine 3 times to find out even if it is partially stocked with stuff wanted by the CG that is all for the constructions in the system I am working on, I really should head back soon to the Orion colonies and finish loading it.

 

[Astrometer]

If you're flying a Panther Clipper Mk2, you are definitely winning at life. It's the best £2.99 I ever spent!

 

[Jack Winter]

Imagine the outcry if the Panther Clipper would have actually been a ship with 2,000 tons cargo!

 

[Sublime]

I don’t think anyone that would have enough credits to buy and outfit the PC at its credit price would really care about the 15-20 mill or whatever more per trip that they’d make with it over something like the cutter..

Edit: I’d argue that the exclusive decal you get with it is way more “P2W” since that’s effectively priceless, if you care about such things. Credits easily come and go.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

What are you winning exactly?

 

[kofeyh]

LOL, great answer, and a perfectly valid one.

Yes it is.

Not losing sleep over it, wanted to discuss it because FD seem to be getting more and more on the nose with P2W elements in the game and I'd hate to see it become even more P2W as time goes by, so some push back now might save us from much worse stuff in the future. If people keep saying "this is fine" then the game might end up like Store Citizen.

To be blunt, it would not surprise me if Frontier just give people the extra modules because of the constant complaint.

Oh no, a competition, it's unfair! There's already a participation prize for rocking up with a single commodity.

Okay, so, if Frontier said they would give out both sets of cargo racks regardless of percentage, are you going to continue to complain?

 

[CMDR Rethalis]

I will only consider it a "P2W" community goal if they don't release the pre-engineered cargo racks at a tech broker or make a new engineer for it after the CG is done. Top 75 percent, means 25 percent won't have the additional ones.

I have not been playing ED all that long like others on here, but the community goals in the past seem to have mostly cosmetic awards as compared to distinct ship advantages. Seemingly minor in the grand scheme of things, but I agree with Aunt, it could be getting close to toeing that "P2W" line.

 

[Sublime]

I will only consider it a "P2W" community goal if they don't release the pre-engineered cargo racks at a tech broker or make a new engineer for it after the CG is done. Top 75 percent, means 25 percent won't have the additional ones.

I have not been playing ED all that long like others on here, but the community goals in the past seem to have mostly cosmetic awards as compared to distinct ship advantages. Seemingly minor in the grand scheme of things, but I agree with Aunt, it could be getting close to toeing that "P2W" line.

The 75% cut off is only 1500 at the moment, that’s only a couple cutter loads. If you can’t stay in the 75% bracket it’s certainly not because you don’t have a PC. It also means you probably would be nowhere near being able to afford one even if it was released for credits right now.

 

[CMDR Rethalis]

The 75% cut off is only 1500 at the moment, that’s only a couple cutter loads. If you can’t stay in the 75% bracket it’s certainly not because you don’t have a PC. It also means you probably would be nowhere near being able to afford one even if it was released for credits right now.

Yea, probably not caring enough to get the additional module is what would keep a person out of the 75 percent.

 

[Tifu]

Imagine the outcry if the Panther Clipper would have actually been a ship with 2,000 tons cargo!

Same realization here. Had it happened, this thread would have been an inferno rather than the reasonably civilised discourse it is now.