Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?

Meaning in that same time, you can shift a bit more cargo and make a bit more money. So what? Why is this important? If it's pay to win, then someone must be losing by not paying, but who is losing out here because I get a bit more imaginary space money than I otherwise would have?

There's a fallacy regarding pay to win. Someone else doesn't have to lose for something to be pay to win. There are single player games that are considered pay to win. In fact, some of the most outrageous examples of pay to win games are in the single player mobile games market.

Usually the win is time, and time is the most valuable resource we possess.
 
Perhaps; we don't know what they might do. Which is why I don't generally get obsessed about relatively minor concerns, because I cannot know what is coming.

It is a game, that should be enjoyed. I try not to suck the fun out as a result.

Me too.

So i will partake in the CG and have fun while doing so.

However, I think its worth pushing back against the thin edge of the wedge so later we don't face the thick edge of the wedge.
 
People keep asking this.

The answer is time.

Lets say you and another player have both got into the top 75% and you are both fine with that, you just want the extra modules.. Current cut off is 10,000 tons and you are both just over that. A week later, the cut off is now 12,000.

So you both go, damn, need to make more deliveries, i still want those extra modules.

Now, you, in your PC, only need 2 runs to get back into the top 75%, but the person without needs 3 runs to do the same. You have gained a time advantage over the person who hasn't opened their wallet.
Okay. Well, first of all, I would suggest that if your time is so precious that you can't spend the 7 or 8 minutes necessary to do an extra cargo run, then Elite is perhaps not the game for you.

Secondly, there is no realistic possibility of the difference in cargo-hauling capabilities between a Cutter/T9 and a Panther Clipper coming into play for staying in the top 75%. Zero. Not gonna happen.
 
Me too.

So i will partake in the CG and have fun while doing so.

However, I think its worth pushing back against the thin edge of the wedge so later we don't face the thick edge of the wedge.

There is pushing back, and then there is labouring the point. I've had some fun, made some credits and will at least get the first 2 modules. Good enough.

I don't really care if I am in the top 75% or not. This isn't my job, I am not financially bound to winning or losing anything, nor does it put food on the table - it is a game I play to enjoy.

Easy to lose sight of.
 
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There's a fallacy regarding pay to win. Someone else doesn't have to lose for something to be pay to win. There are single player games that are considered pay to win. In fact, some of the most outrageous examples of pay to win games are in the single player mobile games market.

Usually the win is time, and time is the most valuable resource we possess.
And we're caring about this why?
 
Okay. Well, first of all, I would suggest that if your time is so precious that you can't spend the 7 or 8 minutes necessary to do an extra cargo run, then Elite is perhaps not the game for you.

Come off it, don't play that silly card. I love ED and will enjoy doing the CG. That isn't the point.

Secondly, there is no realistic possibility of the difference in cargo-hauling capabilities between a Cutter/T9 and a Panther Clipper coming into play for staying in the top 75%. Zero. Not gonna happen.

Thankfully, there will be lots of people who will happily take the top 100% with minimal contribution so its a non-issue for those who want to get into the top 75%, but again, you're missing the point.

Let me try putting it a different way. At what point do you start pushing back against P2W elements in your favourite game? Do you start pushing back when the devs start selling ships for real world money? Do you start pushing back when opening your wallet can give you a slight advantage in certain things in game, even if they don't disadvantage other players? Do you start pushing back when they start selling new ships exclusively for real money, that won't ever be available for credits?

Where is your personal breaking point?

I think its important to address these sort of practices now, before FD crosses the line into more distasteful practices.
 
Because i care about ED and its future.

You care about fairness. Which is admirable, but Frontier is a business, they will do at times what they need to do. We can't win every battle; if we did, Frontier would not be able to operate and likely these forums wouldn't be here to observe that fact.
 
Let me try putting it a different way. At what point do you start pushing back against P2W elements in your favourite game? Do you start pushing back when the devs start selling ships for real world money? Do you start pushing back when opening your wallet can give you a slight advantage in certain things in game, even if they don't disadvantage other players? Do you start pushing back when they start selling new ships exclusively for real money, that won't ever be available for credits?

Where is your personal breaking point?

I think its important to address these sort of practices now, before FD crosses the line into more distasteful practices.
Yeah, that one. That's where I would have a problem. But I don't see a whole lot of people in this thread lining up to protect the poor consumer from abusive business practices. I mostly see a lot of people complaining that their imaginary line isn't going up as fast as it would if they shelled out a tenner.
 
Yeah, that one. That's where I would have a problem. But I don't see a whole lot of people in this thread lining up to protect the poor consumer from abusive business practices. I mostly see a lot of people complaining that their imaginary line isn't going up as fast as it would if they shelled out a tenner.

Agreed. If a new ship or module was listed that will never and cannot ever be earned in game, then I'll be right there with Agony_Aunt, telling Frontier to get bent. 100%

I just cannot get enthusiastic about hand wringing over a CG where time matters the most. And I think claiming this is the slippery slope, ignores that every single ship has been made available a few months after, in game. None have had a rank requirement, either.

I don't see that changing, Frontier haven't said it'll change and so here we are. Arguing over some jpeg art in a game. Apparently.
 
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I just cannot get enthusiastic about hand wringing over a CG where time matters the most. And I think claiming this is the slippery slope, ignores that every single ship has been made available a few months after, in game. None have had a rank requirement, either.
Some players such as myself did not purchase the PC II for the CG. We didn't know about this CG when we made the purchase. But we did benefit from our purchase with this CG. Obviously it is a better ship for the activity.

Some players such as myself purchased the PC II because of the significant time that will be saved in other activities over the next 3 months (or longer? 🤷‍♂️ ). The ARX purchase is small compared to the accumulated time savings. I was happy using my cutter, but I'm not going to handicap myself when a better solution becomes available. The PC II is absolutely advantageous to my activities.

For me when does P2W become intolerable? I'm not certain but if "clearly best items" are continuously for sale then I will certainly quit the game. Which saddens me because I believe this is where its going.:(
 
You care about fairness. Which is admirable, but Frontier is a business, they will do at times what they need to do. We can't win every battle; if we did, Frontier would not be able to operate and likely these forums wouldn't be here to observe that fact.

For sure, but either we choose to take a stance and hope for the best or be passive and accept whatever the bean counters decide.
 
Yeah, that one. That's where I would have a problem. But I don't see a whole lot of people in this thread lining up to protect the poor consumer from abusive business practices. I mostly see a lot of people complaining that their imaginary line isn't going up as fast as it would if they shelled out a tenner.

I mostly see people saying its all fine, they don't see a problem at all.
 
Agreed. If a new ship or module was listed that will never and cannot ever be earned in game, then I'll be right there with Agony_Aunt, telling Frontier to get bent. 100%

I just cannot get enthusiastic about hand wringing over a CG where time matters the most. And I think claiming this is the slippery slope, ignores that every single ship has been made available a few months after, in game. None have had a rank requirement, either.

I don't see that changing, Frontier haven't said it'll change and so here we are. Arguing over some jpeg art in a game. Apparently.

There was a time where we couldn't imagine FD selling ships for ARX, but here we are, so I think some level of hand wringing is justified.
 
Yeah, that one. That's where I would have a problem. But I don't see a whole lot of people in this thread lining up to protect the poor consumer from abusive business practices. I mostly see a lot of people complaining that their imaginary line isn't going up as fast as it would if they shelled out a tenner.

My main problem with pay-to-win is internal consistency and the coherency of the setting. Ideally, out-of-game influences should be kept to a minimum. Some things are outside of Frontier's control--namely how much time players have, what gaming hardware they can afford, the kind of ISP they can get, etc--but wherever they have control I'd very much prefer they draw a line between the in-game setting and the real world. Balance and verisimilitude are secondary aspects of this. The pseudoeconomy is broken beyond repair, but if it wasn't (and I held out hope it would be fixed far longer than was rational), if we had anything resembling scarcity, the way they've implemented ships for Arx would be profoundly game breaking. As it is, it mostly annoys me in the same way Fighter Hangars violating the conservation of mass, large ships having densities on the order of 2kg/m^3, 40g of acceleration barely starting to cause blackout for the same CMDR that can't even walk on a 3g world, marginal NPC persistence, or CMDRs being able to vanish into the ether do. It's dumber than hell and takes considerable mental effort for me to ignore this perpetual slap in the face to even the fantasy logic that the setting is supposed to convey.

Protecting consumers from abusive business practices is nice, but, like any other tragedy of the commons, that can only really be addressed via policy changes.

Also, that line isn't just imaginary; the game tracks, and reacts to, several of them. My CMDR is disadvantaged in any contest of influence that could benefit from the tactics ships for Arx enable. The money itself is a complete non-issue. It doesn't really matter if the price is one penny or a thousand Dollars, though both extremes would be somehow more insulting than the seemingly cold calculus of the values FDev's bean counters have currently settled upon.

If it wasn't acquired in-game, by rules that make sense in a wholly in-setting context, it's going to bother me. Implementation counts as well; even if it was initially acquired in-game, by rules that originally made sense, being able to spawn one every sixty seconds or so ad infinitum begs the question of where they come from...handwavium is already stretched thinly enough explaining normal insurance coverage, let alone a version with no overhead of any kind and even fewer logistical constraints. Why does human society even pretend to use money, need frame shift drives, or have cargo CGs/missions, if unlimited quantities of matter can be conjured, in arbitrarily complex configurations (whole starships), from nothing, then instantly beamed anywhere in the galaxy?

Since I know some people's answer will be 'cause it's a game', I'll bring up my usual rebuttal now. Being a game doesn't automatically mean anything goes. Silent Hunter II is a game, but my u-boat can't fly and it would annoy me if the default loadout had photon torpedoes or the HMS Fortune was able to use 21st century IR satellites to track me around the Atlantic. Likewise, Elite: Dangerous sets up certain expectations and at least pretends to depict a certain setting...one that cannot work in the utter absence of scarcity and travel times. Constraints define games.
 
If one cares about ED and its future then how do you suggest we pay FDev so they can pay the developers and the cost of running the servers? This isn't a charity service. Maybe charge a monthly fee to play Elite? Most wouldn't like that.

I have an idea. They could bring out small paid-for expansion packs that includes a ship... oh wait.
 
pay the developers and the cost of running the servers
I dunno, they just spent £10 million on stock buybacks that maybe, perhaps, they should have spend on development or server upkeep. Clearly that means they have no money left for anything and can only exist by our charitable donations. To which I say: I will pay for interiors, stop shoving ships at us.
 
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