Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?

[CMDR RAY-ZOR'SHARP]

Zero P2W, everyman and his dog could/can make the 75%, those that don't, likely did not want to, and are happy with the base, one of each poorman's MKI CRack's.

Are everyone who own a Cutter guilty of P2W, yes they are, so what?

All I hear is Bleat, Bleat, Bleat, over a non-existent issue.

07

 

[zimms]

This thread is predicated on the concept that the PC2 is pay to win, and the OP has gone on to double down on that over the course of twenty-something pages. Even when presented with alternate scenarios or people actually chiming in on what they're using.

The reality does not align with blanket statements. As always, there is nuance. Is there an aspect of pay-to-win? I think there is some degree, yes. Is it as catastrophic as is made out to be, no, the reality that we're not all mindless robots doing the identical thing, ensures that.

At some point, people have to be responsible for their own decisions. That might be to not accept Arx ships as a concept and to opt out. That's fine, but that choice does not extend to expecting everyone else to make that same decision, and arguing they are simply wrong if they don't.

What? Where exactly in the OP does it say any of this is "catastrophic"? Or where does it say that nobody should buy the PC2? Absolutely nowhere.

P2W means you can buy an advantage. Sarcastically asking "Did I win?" isn't the clever argument some think it is.

 

[zimms]

It's NOT a competition! [...]

It's just a bunch of people participating in a certain exercise who will be compared against each other and ranked from best to worst and they will get rewards based on how well they did.

[...] The people who end up below 75% are going to be the ones who just made a single contribution. [...]

I can almost guarantee you this will not be the case. But maybe that was just a hyperbole and you don't even believe that yourself.

 

[photomankc]

I agree that it doesn't look good. But at least at some point Panther will become available to all commanders for credits.
What I really have a problem with is the fact that Panther Clipper actually made Type-9 completely obsolete. Instead of adding options to choose from and ship variety, they practically limit them. Now everyone will be flying PCs.

Were credits something that actually mattered it would not be so. A fully upgraded and enginered T9 is substantially less expensive than the Panther and if we had even the economic progression of like 5 years back it would be quite some time to actually work up the coin. I do recall that I spent about a year in the game before I worked my into the credits for a Cutter with A's and armor.

Yes, in a world where there is only a BMW M5, and a Honda Civic and the price difference is 1 weeks effort, there is no point in having a choice but I disagree that everything should be made to be a side-grade. I was so happy to sell off the T9's I owned and buy a 2nd hull of the Panther! The fact that I will never again fly a T9 brings me happiness.

 

[WillFrog]

It's just a bunch of people participating in a certain exercise who will be compared against each other and ranked from best to worst and they will get rewards based on how well they did.

Nobody is being compared against each other. I have no idea where you are currently or anyone else. The only ranking I will ever see is my own; therefore, not a competition.

I can almost guarantee you this will not be the case. But maybe that was just a hyperbole and you don't even believe that yourself.

Maybe not strictly a single contribution, but the people who don't get into the top 75% are going to be the people who don't care enough to bother.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It's NOT a competition! The people who end up below 75% are going to be the ones who just made a single contribution. Everyone who actually cares about getting the second set of racks will get them. You are not competing with anyone but yourself, and the ships others are flying are irrelevant.

Inara currently has the 75% threshold estimated at 2,476t which it would require a bunch of players on somewhat less than that sending it information of e.g. 2,475t being top 100% still. It's not a particularly difficult threshold to surpass, certainly, for a regular player with high-end ships available - though it is likely to rise quite a bit further by the end of the four weeks - but it's already quite a bit higher than the usual 75% thresholds for trade CGs which rarely get above 2,000t by the end of the week.

The difference between the 75% threshold and the average contribution level is surprisingly small, which suggests that there are quite a few people making deliveries to get into top 75%, then finding themselves pushed out and making some more.

It's certainly not as competitive as a reward tied to the top 50% or top 25% thresholds would be, but there is some significant competition going on nonetheless - on current numbers, this is already the most competitive 75% level since 2022 on multiple measures. Sure, they're probably too "casual" to count as "really" competitive. Some of them might not even play Elite Dangerous every day! Certainly the current top CMDR is hauling over 100x as much as any of them. But there's definitely a competition going on at that level.

 

[angusmadmac1]

I'm in the top 25%, and I don't own a PC2. Do I get a Luddite themed "old school" I win prize?

Just imagine how much you could have hauled if you had a PC ? At least another 7500 ...
And no I'm afraid you don't win as you didn't come first . I do apologise

 

[evanevery]

Based on info at Inara, it looks like they just pushed up the completion goal.

Inara WAS projecting completion in only 4 or 5 days but the completion target just increased to now coincide (or exceed) the 24 days remaining in the CG.

This kind of indicates (to me) that folks ARE actively competing to meet the 75% threshold and the CG continues to remain fairly active. IOW: Just because you are in the 75% now, doesn't mean you will still be there 24 days in the future...

In any case, netting 45M for each full Panther load of Titanium (at 10x) is not a bad reward in itself...

 

[Cmdr Sylveste]

Just imagine how much you could have hauled if you had a PC ? At least another 7500 ...
And no I'm afraid you don't win as you didn't come first . I do apologise

Not even the "plucky loser" award? I have now been demoted to the top 50%, so clearly I have to try harder.

 

[aRJay]

Based on info at Inara, it looks like they just pushed up the completion goal.

Inara WAS projecting completion in only 4 or 5 days but the completion target just increased to now coincide (or exceed) the 24 days remaining in the CG.

This kind of indicates (to me) that folks ARE actively competing to meet the 75% threshold and the CG continues to remain fairly active. IOW: Just because you are in the 75% now, doesn't mean you will still be there 24 days in the future...

In any case, netting 45M for each full Panther load of Titanium (at 10x) is not a bad reward in itself...

Two extra tiers and a 1, added to the front of the total it looks like.

Really have to Play to win now.

 

[angusmadmac1]

Here you go

 

[Rainbro]

Well actually there is no screen that says "You Win!" in Elite so checkmate.

... What would people actually define as P2W if this isn't it, or whatever term you prefer?

You can get a noticeable advantage over other players by using Arx, and the rate of free Arx is slow enough that paying will be the only way to achieve that for a decent chunk of players right now. There will be some number of players in Cutters who lose out on their magic cargo racks because they didn't pay to do those runs in a Panther.

I think that counts as P2W, whatever your concerns about the exact terminology or how significant the P2W aspect is for you.
If i could pay a fiver to give my Cutter +50% cargo, that would be P2W, right? Are there enough layers of obfuscation through it being limited time, free Arx, etc that this is different?

 

[Rat Catcher]

Not even the "plucky loser" award? I have now been demoted to the top 50%, so clearly I have to try harder.

Just for you, and certainly for me!

 

[Brrokk]

In 3 weeks time I will have accumulated enough free in-game ARX to get my own basic PC2. I don't need it to participate in the CG, but presumably it gives me an ongoing hauling advantage over players who have to wait a few weeks/months for the ship to be available for in game credits (assuming that you have enough to buy and outfit the ship). I won't pay real money for the 1000 ARX I need to get the PC2 now.
My feeling is that those players in the top 10 would be there whatever ship they are using, because you are competing against people who can haul efficiently, and spend more time than most doing it.

Well... what about borrowing the ARX temporarily from your future self. Buy the ARX and get the ship now, and resolve not to use an equal number of ARX which you gain in future.

It'll be just like having a mortgage.

I'm good at rationalising...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Are there enough layers of obfuscation through it being limited time, free Arx, etc that this is different?

Arguably the problem with the Panther Clipper (and other ships) is more that it doesn't have the right layers of obfuscation to allow people to look past the P2W nature of it.

Horizons gave players considerably more advantages in considerably more areas than even the Panther does, including the ability to participate in tens of CGs at all, on a longer time limit (and one not originally advertised as time-limited at all), with no non-money alternative route to obtain it, etc. etc. Apparently far less obfuscated ... and yet Horizons did not get repeated regular threads complaining about its P2W nature, and neither does Odyssey (to rule out increased consumer sensitivity to such matters post-2020), and neither I expect will Odyssey in N months when Odyssey also includes the Panther Clipper and the base game doesn't.

 

[KRISXR]

This past weekend has been insane for me in Maine, land of the dullards. I have watched over the past two years all of the animals, plants, insects, and reptiles disappear. Even our state bird the chickadee, who i use to hand feed, and were abundant, are gone. There is green slime growing in the soil, on my house, and has contaminated my natural spring well. You can not combat industrial pollution by spraying more pollution. Nitrates are destroying the ecosystem, a collapse of the food chain is occurring.

Agh, back on topic, I did have enough time once a day to check Inara, It appears to me that many commanders, so far, are not driving the that 75% threshold very high. Probably because of colonization. I'd like to think it's because players recognize the poor timing. In my opinion, a company does not need underhanded tactics to be successful, all it needs is to make a good product. It will sell.

I'm under alot of pressure here, 95% of my work is outside. I cant build with wood, paint steel and wood, or fabricate steel parts in constant 100% humidity and constant rain, everything outside is rotting, steel, wood, plants, animals, and my sanity. Sorry for all of this, most humans I talk to say "cheer up man", um i can't, im grounded in reality, and am aware of how this planet use to be. So thank you for allowing me to try and vent, and maybe reach out.

 

[WillFrog]

You can get a noticeable advantage over other players by using Arx, and the rate of free Arx is slow enough that paying will be the only way to achieve that for a decent chunk of players right now.

No, you can't. It won't make any difference.

There will be some number of players in Cutters who lose out on their magic cargo racks because they didn't pay to do those runs in a Panther.

There absolutely will not. Mark my words. There will be people who didn't get the special cargo racks because they simply missed the CG entirely or couldn't participate for whatever reason, but I guarantee you there will not be a single post from anyone flying a Cutter who was actually trying and still lost out when this is over.

I think that counts as P2W, whatever your concerns about the exact terminology or how significant the P2W aspect is for you.

Okay. Sure. If you like. It's P2W. But it still doesn't mean anything. Nobody is going to lose out from this.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Arguably the problem with the Panther Clipper (and other ships) is more that it doesn't have the right layers of obfuscation to allow people to look past the P2W nature of it.

Horizons gave players considerably more advantages in considerably more areas than even the Panther does, including the ability to participate in tens of CGs at all, on a longer time limit (and one not originally advertised as time-limited at all), with no non-money alternative route to obtain it, etc. etc. Apparently far less obfuscated ... and yet Horizons did not get repeated regular threads complaining about its P2W nature, and neither does Odyssey (to rule out increased consumer sensitivity to such matters post-2020), and neither I expect will Odyssey in N months when Odyssey also includes the Panther Clipper and the base game doesn't.

i think because most people accept that if you buy an expansion you will get access to new ways of doing stuff, and if you dont buy the expansion you wont.

however people bought the expansion and then presumably feel that then being asked to pay again isnt cricket!.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

and new ships need to be "better" than the old ones to be accepted.

They need to be better to sell. They don't need to be better to be accepted and ideally, they should be somewhat balanced with existing ships and capabilities, otherwise you end up with power creep - then what happens is either the devs make the game easier by adding more powerful ships or they increase the difficulty leaving older ships in the lurch - ships we (in general) spent money on perhaps with paintjobs and ship kits as well as the investment in engineering and outfitting.

It reminds me of when they added engineering, which i had hoped would have been more or less real trade offs, not practically straight up power increase, and that resulted in FD having to increase the difficulty of enemies to compensate, or at least that's what they tried to do, but what they actually achieved was massive hitpoint inflation - which made CZs and PvP way less fun and hurt small ships as combat ships.

 

[ganzkurz]

and they did it again, poor game design FDev. Get rid of the number and let the clock run down