Elite Insurance makes no sense

[Comrade Napoleon]

To OP

Why question a perfectly working system, its one thing that has worked ok from start ?
I mean there are lots of other stuff that is not working well, pick on those.
Glad to see you came to your senses, now dont waste more time on discussion, get back in the cockpit

Cheers Cmdr's

 

[vonvonbraun]

So, you have an Asp Explorer it's worth 6,500,000 credits. Your ship gets destroyed, and you are presented with an insurance screen. For the most part, I ignored it. You get a loan, you get your ship back at a fraction of the cost. It's all good normally, and to be honest I didn't pay any attention to it until today when I couldn't afford a new ship. Yeah I had a temper trantrum, I mean who wouldn't after you'd lost 7.5 million in ship and upgrades... moving past that.

It got me thinking about the existing system... why does the ASP explorer only cost 250,000 credits when it is destroyed? The ship was worth 7.5 million, that's 1/30th of the ship cost. Also, why is there a loan of 200,000 credits available? In what practical way does that make sense? Sure I know it's only a game, but it's supposed to be a space trading game set in the future. That means an established economic system right?

Who exactly is going out, buying new ships, kitting them out at a 7.5 million value then selling them on to the player for 1/30th of the cost? Who is making money? What possible business model could ever exist that ensures that every time a ship is lost they lose 7.25 million credits?

We all know how real world insurance works, you pay X a month, and if your car is totalled you get a replacement. It's a regular payment based on how safely you drive. If you are a crazy nutjob making claims all the time your insurance costs will go through the roof. You benefit for no claims bonuses if you are very safe and never claim from them. This system punishes terrible drivers and rewards good drivers.

But in the elite universe, you only apparently pay the insurance company money + a bank loan when your ships dies. That means they only receive money when your ship is ended at a fraction of the ships cost...

No, this system needs to be rethought. There should be daily or weekly charge. That's how real world insurance works. So why the heck is it so weird in Elite? why as a business model doesn't it make any sense at all?

Or worse still are we all paying 7.5 million credits for a ship that can be manufacturered and delivered to the player for just 250,000 credits... in which case who the heck is getting the 7.25 million credit per ASP and how can I get in on that racket? haha

Have you tried going for a walk?

 

[kaivalagi]

Have you tried going for a walk?

Can't do that yet in the game, you have to stay seated lol

 

[WilkiePJ]

I don't think the insurance system is any good right now.

I could see adaptations though:

1. Either a warning message if you're about to leave station uninsured
2. Paying up front for x times of re-buys.
3. Having the ability to "rise" the available loan based on your assets. Sidewinder is 200k, ASP e.g. could be 800k

In fact I also could imagine the insurance to become a bit of a moneysink. So that there won't be an ever growing differential between players. Make it an annual fee which needs to be payed upfront and rises the more ships you have / the higher your asset value is. This way we'd prevent people ending up with hundreds of stored ships and billions of CR in their accounts.

1. No, no need for pop-ups or messages - To me this is spoon feeding and not needed, your supposed to consider what your doing in this game and read the info available to you, which is there and easily accessible already. If you rush about without thinking it WILL punish you and that's the way it should be.
2. I don't subscribe to x amount of re-buys, but the option to pay the excess up-front could be useful prior to leaving the station, however, is this a deposit refunded if you don't use it or is it gone? and further to this, this only serves as a balance protection mechanism to avoid you spending too much in the store and even then only works if you buy it first.
3. Getting a bigger loan could be an option here, again, considering the options, if you die before paying off the existing loan, should make you a higher risk and reduce in higher % earning reduction or even a refusal of a loan if your debt is too high.

I am don't really have a problem with the way things are set up now, however, some deeper running cost mechanics would add to the game and make you consider what your doing, such as insurance payments, hanger fees, docking fees to add to those that are already there, scalable to the size of ship you are running of course.

 

[dcforeman]

1. No, no need for pop-ups or messages - To me this is spoon feeding and not needed, your supposed to consider what your doing in this game and read the info available to you, which is there and easily accessible already. If you rush about without thinking it WILL punish you and that's the way it should be.
2. I don't subscribe to x amount of re-buys, but the option to pay the excess up-front could be useful prior to leaving the station, however, is this a deposit refunded if you don't use it or is it gone? and further to this, this only serves as a balance protection mechanism to avoid you spending too much in the store and even then only works if you buy it first.
3. Getting a bigger loan could be an option here, again, considering the options, if you die before paying off the existing loan, should make you a higher risk and reduce in higher % earning reduction or even a refusal of a loan if your debt is too high.

I am don't really have a problem with the way things are set up now, however, some deeper running cost mechanics would add to the game and make you consider what your doing, such as insurance payments, hanger fees, docking fees to add to those that are already there, scalable to the size of ship you are running of course.

A good UI always has helpful features showing how it should be used, as well as the option to turn it off. Why do you reject improvements to UI that reduce learning curves?

 

[Seren77]

Every time you upgrade a component or ship press 4 to check the rebuy cost.

 

[Darkwolf]

It doesn't have to make economic sense. It's a game contrivance to provide a death penalty while also not making death completely crippling. Unless you don't have enough to pay for it. Whoops.

Personally, I'd rather that a ship loss instead always gave you back the ship, but if you weren't able to pay the rebuy cost immediately the ship was impounded and you were given a default Sidewinder. You could then discharge the impounding by paying 150% of the rebuy cost (administration fees, y'know).

That would stop the scenario where people have weeks of work crushed because of one stupid error, while also punishing people who make that error.

 

[dcforeman]

It doesn't have to make economic sense. It's a game contrivance to provide a death penalty while also not making death completely crippling. Unless you don't have enough to pay for it. Whoops.

Personally, I'd rather that a ship loss instead always gave you back the ship, but if you weren't able to pay the rebuy cost immediately the ship was impounded and you were given a default Sidewinder. You could then discharge the impounding by paying 150% of the rebuy cost (administration fees, y'know).

That would stop the scenario where people have weeks of work crushed because of one stupid error, while also punishing people who make that error.

You're distracted by another post.

THIS post is about the system. And Elite Dangerous is supposed to be am immerse experience. That's why it had 1.5 million in kickstarter funds. Because they promised things like walking around your ship, fully realised cabins. A massive universe to explorer, a detailed dynamic trading system in an economic universe.

That means elite is drive by money, and money is moved by companies, and the needs of those companies.

Insurance companies would definitely exist in any economic model, and they would have to exist in such a way that they make money or go bust. you might be happy flying around in your little space ship going pew pew, but Elite Dangerous was supposed to be about more than that.

In terms of a true economic system EVE Online has implimented a much better job. You can trade your ships to other players, establish factories, and yes. You can buy insurance.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Insurance

The devs could learn a lot from this.

There's also a few other MMORPG's that offer an insurance system.

So why not take Elite to new levels and established in game mechanics that more accurately reflect real world business models?

 

[Darkwolf]

You're distracted by another post.

Don't tell me what I'm thinking. Ironically, the only post in this thread I actually read was yours.

In terms of a true economic system EVE Online has implimented a much better job. You can trade your ships to other players, establish factories, and yes. You can buy insurance.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Insurance

The devs could learn a lot from this.

There's also a few other MMORPG's that offer an insurance system.

So why not take Elite to new levels and established in game mechanics that more accurately reflect real world business models?

All game insurance systems (especially EVE's which can actually turn a profit from ship destruction!) are a contrivance put in place to inflict punishment on failure, while not causing full destruction of a character's worth. There is nothing realistic or accurate about an insurance system that continues to insure persons who repeatedly put assets in dangerous situations and expect to keep claiming.

I'll also point out that ships in EVE have a default 50% insurance value (they didn't used to, but they do now). You can prepay for extra if you like. Elite has chosen to postpay, which I can see some issues with, however a simple impounding system would permit Elite to differ from EVE while still not causing the issues it causes now.

Edit: I see what you mean about periodic payments, but one important thing about how EVE does it - in times gone past, it was frequently more profitable to ensure that you always claimed (ie, lost) your ship before the platinum insurance ran out. How would that ever work in real life? Well, it wouldn't. Because insurance is a contrivance, and it doesn't have to match anything realistic even vaguely. It's a pure second chance for game mechanics reasons.

 

[dcforeman]

Don't tell me what I'm thinking. Ironically, the only post in this thread I actually read was yours.



All game insurance systems (especially EVE's which can actually turn a profit from ship destruction!) are a contrivance put in place to inflict punishment on failure, while not causing full destruction of a character's worth. There is nothing realistic or accurate about an insurance system that continues to insure persons who repeatedly put assets in dangerous situations and expect to keep claiming.

I'll also point out that ships in EVE have a default 50% insurance value (they didn't used to, but they do now). You can prepay for extra if you like. Elite has chosen to postpay, which I can see some issues with, however a simple impounding system would permit Elite to differ from EVE while still not causing the issues it causes now.

Edit: I see what you mean about periodic payments, but one important thing about how EVE does it - in times gone past, it was frequently more profitable to ensure that you always claimed (ie, lost) your ship before the platinum insurance ran out. How would that ever work in real life? Well, it wouldn't. Because insurance is a contrivance, and it doesn't have to match anything realistic even vaguely. It's a pure second chance for game mechanics reasons.

Yes, but why can't it be more than that. Why can't it be a company system that affects the economics of Elite even more. why just be a pure second chance system. Why can't it be more then that? Because, what? No one's done it before? Because it's just a game?

Bah to those reasons. Oculus Rift is coming out, games are becoming more cinematic, more realistic, more detailed.

Why does that have to be limited to mere graphics, why can't the game play mechanics evolve to an unprecedented level? Why are most people here content merely to say...

Hey. It's just a game.

Elite = a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

So lets make Elite superior to all other space games that came before. It's the FIRST space trading game, managed by the guy who helped bring the worlds first 3D game to the BBC Master. Something every developer said was impossible at the time. Something no one had done before.

This isn't just a game, its ELITE.

 

[Darkwolf]

This isn't just a game, its ELITE.

That was a nice bit of cheerleading, but anyway.

It's simple. Because running an insurance system for players that always pays out and charges less than the purchase cost of the ship would result in that company going bankrupt in very short order. I certainly wouldn't be buying stock in that train wreck.

Insurance companies in the real world make money because the premiums are higher than the probability of a claim over that time multiplied by the insurance value. In other words, as the tendency of a claim being made tends towards 100%, the cost of the premium would tend towards more than 100% of the insurance value.

In a game world, the probability of a loss is close to 100%. So no 'insurance system' can be realistic and useable.

 

[Kitiara]

The business model does make economic sense, when you factor in one thing

NOT EVERYONE WHO GETS BLOWN UP SURVIVES THE EXPERIENCE

The insurance company doesn't pay out to pilots that die in their ship's destruction. Of course, if ship destruction was to result in the termination of your life, requiring you to start over as a new character (As it did in the original 1984 game), probably the majority of the player base would hate the situation.

We as players have the ability to simulate death, by clearing our save when we die. It's up to you dcforeman. Accept that you miraculously manage to eject every single time you are blown up, and your escape pod is picked up every time. Or hit clear save when you are destroyed.

I dont' know about you, but I'm not willing to do that with my primary character. I am looking forward to the possibilty of a 2nd character slot so I can play an "ironman" character (whether or not Frontier implement ironman). Maybe you should consider doing the same.

 

[kaivalagi]

Haha, yes, assume 75% of NPCs die for real because they're stupid or have no funds for rebuy, then think of all the savings the insurance industry would have made if they took policy payment from a cut of the ships sale price and never did anything for that ship in those cases, looks like a nice little earner to me...

 

[Zvanya]

I thought you had left.

 

[Kolato]

The economy collapses if there are no transport ships or bounty hunters doing their job.
They have to insurance you so you can continue to support the economy by working and paying for fuel and repair costs.
Maybe the real price of fuel is 50% cheaper but another 50% tax is added?

 

[Niewinter]

So from what i understand:
inside the 6.5mill for the asp is the insurance for the ship (so 3.25mill the asp and 3,25 mill the insurance) included
the 200k is just so you can get the payout aka new ship.
this way it still makes sense it’s like one of these all in one leasing cars were you pay 500$ a month and everything is inside (except fuel)

makes perfect sense to me

 

[smsKONG]

So, you have an Asp Explorer it's worth 6,500,000 credits. Your ship gets destroyed, and you are presented with an insurance screen. For the most part, I ignored it. You get a loan, you get your ship back at a fraction of the cost. It's all good normally, and to be honest I didn't pay any attention to it until today when I couldn't afford a new ship. Yeah I had a temper trantrum, I mean who wouldn't after you'd lost 7.5 million in ship and upgrades...

So you were happy with the system we have up to the point where you bit on the bum for ignoring it?

The way it works has been explained - it's even in the manual!

I like the current system and frankly don't want pop up windows reminding me of things all the time.

I also don't want to have to pay insurance up front on a per trip or per unit time basis.
What happens if you take a month off - does the game ignore this or does it keep charging you.
Maybe we should have to apply for space tax and put our spare ships on a SORN so that we don't get fined; after all these are the systems we use in real life right?
Maybe we could get some in game comparison sites so we can decide on the right broker for us!


The system works well enough and puts the onus onto the player for taking care of the details.

Just say no to crutches

 

[dcforeman]

Haha, yes, assume 75% of NPCs die for real because they're stupid or have no funds for rebuy, then think of all the savings the insurance industry would have made if they took policy payment from a cut of the ships sale price and never did anything for that ship in those cases, looks like a nice little earner to me...

This is a point well made actually. We treat NPC's as other players in many ways, we steal from them, get attacked by them, and they populate a massive universe to a degree that human players can't.

So I see no reason why NPC's can't be included within the economic model. Presumably they are trading goods, collecting bounties, pirating and all in all keeping the cash flow moving just as we real human players are.

If you do indeed assume that an NPC's death is permanent then the premium payments insurance system makes a lot of sense.

Also remember NPC's don't need to die, they just need to be captured and forced into slavery. Slaves don't get to claim insurance.

Heck, throw in an escape pod system as well. Make that pod:

1) Too small to lock onto, + a stealth system.
2) Don't allow it to target anything other than stations, no scanners allowed! Just call it the emergency station location system.
3) Give it a whooping 75ly range, and a fuel scoop.
4) Make it useless for anything other than getting back home so players can't exploit the large frame shift range.

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The system works well enough and puts the onus onto the player for taking care of the details.

Just say no to crutches

Such a boring point of view.

Btw, the whole existing system is a crutch. You died, how did you magically come back to life? Ha, perhaps you're a zombie pilot

Yeah yeah I'm sure THAT's in the manual too. Magical elite reanimation spells for dummies or something.

This game is suffering from a lot of boring repetition, and with your attitude it'll remain that way forever. What exactly is your problem with us discussing different was to improve the game, to make it more realistic, more immersive, more believable?