Mercs of Mikunn results after 3 weeks of effort - Also a request for documentation, in game and out

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While I appreciate that you do not want to divulge the exact mechanics of how this works, I feel that you need to throw us a bone or two on the intentions of states and what they do, otherwise it's going to be very difficult for any player to say "this doesn't appear to work" when they don't know how it's supposed to work. I would second Walt's comment that if 70 people can't understand what's going on then there's an issue at hand, even if things are working as intended.

I agree with the lack of "proper documentation" in the sense that the background sim should be some type of a black box however the game itself should "document" what is happening for example by using the local GalNet news to feed outcomes of player outcomes for example a news report stating that Company XYZ is experiencing increased profits before we actually see a boom status. The problem is that although this is planned (according to DDA) it is not implemented so what bothers me is not so much the lack of proper documentation but the lack of in-game feedback to my actions so I can adjust.

I believe that my experiment in conjunction with the Dukes experiment is enough "proof" to conclude that there is a bug unless that it is working as intended that 70 players aiding one faction is supposed to have the same outcome as 1 player ignoring it (or even working against it sometimes) because that is what has happened.
 
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Thank you to all those who are experimenting with the game mechanics as we all move forward. This is definitely an issue I hope will be resolved soon.
 

Michael Brookes

Game Director
His first post demonstrates it's not working correctly, Michael. How many more people doing thousands of broken things do you need, exactly?

Also, if you don't tell your customers how your game works, and it doesn't work how they expect it to work, don't expect them to stay around for years banging their head against brick walls. Those days are long gone.

Until we process the information we've received we don't know, but any additional information is useful at this stage.

The processes the system uses should be a black box as far as players are concerned. The useful feedback here is that players are doing X, with the expectations of Y. The problem might be a bug, or how we feedback for player actions or some other issue.

Michael
 
Maybe the OP isnt aware that by a big chance some one was countering his efforts ?

And honestly, not joking here - Something Awful Goons are really enjoying that as the Meta-Game. I know that by chance, a user on this forum was interested in trying to flip a system we happened to be backing in secret. It didn't happen.

Maybe the "system" works but you just got outplayed ?

( InB4 the first one calls that griefing ^^ )
 
I've said before in a similar thread that we won't provide details on how the mechanisms work. However if you amass information to demonstrate how you believe it isn't working correctly then we can take a look. I believe some people have already raised a tickets so we'll investigate these.

Michael
You would perhaps agree that enough information should be available to players to allow them to interact usefully with these systems. In the spectrum between no information being available at all (so the systems may as well not exist) and providing graphs for every variable (which would drown players in unnecessary detail), surely it is best to choose a level of feedback that actively promotes participation.

In my view, this could be in the form of local galnet articles that describe the state of the system (xx faction is in yy state), providing some superficial narrative, and hinting at how players have contributed to this state, how it might develop in future and how players might influence potential outcomes and what those outcomes might be. At present, I see a faction in civil war for example, and it means nothing to me.

This doesn't mean giving everything away or revealing the underlying mechanics (which in any case can be deduced from the design documents), but a little more help would involve more players more easily, and make it clearer what's going on in each system.

I think taking too hard a line on this will only lead to confusion and lack of uptake of game features by players for whom it is simply too opaque to enjoy. I'm not accusing you of this, but it seems like we're in danger of going in that direction which would be a terrible waste of a promising set of game mechanics.
 
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I think a simple answer to the question, can our actions cause the allegiance of a system to change, or a station to be built or expanded, would be more than enough. The big question now is whether those possibilities are even in the game. I don't think we need to know the precise calculations that go into it, but we would like assurances that what we're trying to do can be done.
 
I think a simple answer to the question, can our actions cause the allegiance of a system to change, or a station to be built or expanded, would be more than enough. The big question now is whether those possibilities are even in the game. I don't think we need to know the precise calculations that go into it, but we would like assurances that what we're trying to do can be done.

This.

There are other groups of people who'd also like to know this. :)
 
I think a simple answer to the question, can our actions cause the allegiance of a system to change, or a station to be built or expanded, would be more than enough. The big question now is whether those possibilities are even in the game. I don't think we need to know the precise calculations that go into it, but we would like assurances that what we're trying to do can be done.

Agree with this. It's fine for the system to be a black box, but having some idea of the (current, at least) inputs and outputs would be useful. Because many things which are obvious might not be implemented, and others might be bugged.
 
I've said before in a similar thread that we won't provide details on how the mechanisms work. However if you amass information to demonstrate how you believe it isn't working correctly then we can take a look. I believe some people have already raised a tickets so we'll investigate these.

Michael

Michael, if ED is going to take this approach (old school opaque mechanics that the community has to reverse engineer and document for themselves), can you at least enable the community to freely post guides to the Guides forum? Right now, way too many good community-produced guides are falling into into obscurity in the forums where we are allowed to freely post. For example, "Dangerous Discussion" is the most widely-read forum, but it scrolls so quickly that a guide can last only a day or two there before effectively becoming invisible.
 
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I am kind of dissapointed by the official statement. I expected much more. And it hasn`t really lessened my suspicion that the background sim never worked.
 
The processes the system uses should be a black box as far as players are concerned. The useful feedback here is that players are doing X, with the expectations of Y. The problem might be a bug, or how we feedback for player actions or some other issue.
While I completely understand that the exact mechanics and systems should remain a black box, I do think it would greatly help players who are interested in influencing the background simulation if we could get some clarity on the terminology used to provide feedback in-game (like the phrases used in mission results screens) and/or a general overview of how certain things are structured.

As a simple example of the latter, if we want to help a faction 'take over' a system by increasing it's influence, is getting that faction into a 'civil war' state a good thing or a bad thing?
 
I am kind of dissapointed by the official statement. I expected much more. And it hasn`t really lessened my suspicion that the background sim never worked.

I am pretty sure parts of the background sim are working. Which ones are and which ones aren't is what I would like to know but I suspect FD stance is that all of them are working and if we find one that isn't then it is a bug.

As a simple example of the latter, if we want to help a faction 'take over' a system by increasing it's influence, is getting that faction into a 'civil war' state a good thing or a bad thing?

I suspect this is the kind of question that won't be answered because it is a black box. My theory is that "civil war" is bad as it splits the faction - civil war means troubles from within, not with the other factions.
 
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Until we process the information we've received we don't know, but any additional information is useful at this stage.

The processes the system uses should be a black box as far as players are concerned. The useful feedback here is that players are doing X, with the expectations of Y. The problem might be a bug, or how we feedback for player actions or some other issue.

Michael

Is there any information that we could gather and record that would be useful to help you identify problems with the system? For example would making note of how many of each mission type has been completed in a particular star system for a particular faction be of any use. Or do you have tools in place that can record and analyse player activity, which would allow you to compare the actual results of players actions on the background simulation with expected results to find if there is an issue?

I'm sure that many people would be more than willing to volunteer to gather whatever data or complete whatever actions are required to help :)
 
Until we process the information we've received we don't know, but any additional information is useful at this stage.

The processes the system uses should be a black box as far as players are concerned. The useful feedback here is that players are doing X, with the expectations of Y. The problem might be a bug, or how we feedback for player actions or some other issue.

Michael

First off, I want to thank you for letting us know the team is looking into it. There's been a lot of player effort in a lot of different places and no end of frustration, and having some acknowledgement that there may in fact be a problem and the problem might actually be fixed is a huge boost in morale.

But moving on: A blackbox system has, by definition, a defined interface. A good black box should be clear about it's expected inputs and outputs, but not it's methods for determining them. That's what people are asking for. Not the details of how things function behind the scene, just an interface definition so we can determine whether or not the black box return "cow" to the question of "What is 2+2?" is appropriate. If the interface is defined as "When asked 'What is []?' and provided a number as the argument, the box will return the animal matched to that numerical value.", the system is still a black box. We have no idea how how the internals work, how it determines what animal is what. But we know it's not broken (in this way)! We know what outputs to expect, and even though they may not be instinctively understandable ("What? How is 2+2 a cow? Shouldn't it be 4?") we know they are working as intended.

Unless "What is 2+2?" always returns "cow" and "What is 4?" always returns "platypus". Then, even though we don't how the box works, or how it decides what animal is matched to each number, we know the box is broken, because the interface defines the argument as a value, and the format of that value should not effect the outcome.

We aren't asking for internals, we're asking for a definition of the surface for interfacing with the black box - "When missions are completed, it will raise or lower certain attributes, all of which will be displayed."

There are some kind-of-internal-kind-of-interface expectations that could be shared as well:
"Raising attributes can trigger states by reaching a specific value, but are not the sole determinant in whether or not that state occurs."

Or, perhaps the biggest:
"When we display a 1% increase in faction influence, it should increase the faction influence attribute by 1%".

We don't need to know what's going on inside, but we should be able to know that if a missions says "Influence: +1%" what that actually means in terms of box-output. Especially if it's contrary to basic expectations, i.e. "Influence: +1%" should increase influence by 1%.

This is especially crucial in a situation such as this where we know that the interface has, in fact, previously been explicitly lying to us - you've claimed to have fixed a bug that resulted in half a mission's displayed result being illusory. The most amusing part of that, though, is that since we don't know what the expected output was there's no way for us to determine this was in fact the case even now, after the fact!

We're not asking for the internals of the black box, we're asking for it's transfer characteristics. ;)

Help us help you! We just want things to work, because we love the possibilities the system offers, and mystery is great but only if the people pursuing it have faith the mystery can be resolved, and that's something people are very rapidly losing!
 
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I know for a fact that expanding factions do not always get locked at 9.1%. Look up a system called Tilian. Two factions expanded into it from neighboring systems, the Keries Cammora and a faction from a nearby LHS system. The two factions that expanded into Tilian even went into civil war for a short while. As of this post, the Keries Cammora sits at around 16.4% influence in Tilian. Just thought I'd let you know, cheers.
 
TL;DR; At the very least can you tell us if the "+1%" influence result is actually supposed to represent, since it doesn't actually seem to raise the influence of the faction giving the mission?

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I know for a fact that expanding factions do not always get locked at 9.1%. Look up a system called Tilian. Two factions expanded into it from neighboring systems, the Keries Cammora and a faction from a nearby LHS system. The two factions that expanded into Tilian even went into civil war for a short while. As of this post, the Keries Cammora sits at around 16.4% influence in Tilian. Just thought I'd let you know, cheers.

This is quite interesting... Perhaps the second expanded faction changed some important factors?

For my own part, our faction expanded but has steadily declined in the system it expanded to. Refocusing and running additional missions for them actually increased the rate of decline, despite almost all of those missions granting +1% influence.
 
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I know for a fact that expanding factions do not always get locked at 9.1%. Look up a system called Tilian. Two factions expanded into it from neighboring systems, the Keries Cammora and a faction from a nearby LHS system. The two factions that expanded into Tilian even went into civil war for a short while. As of this post, the Keries Cammora sits at around 16.4% influence in Tilian. Just thought I'd let you know, cheers.

I know of another system stuck at 16% as well...but they are stuck too.
 
"Black box" does not mean "carte blanche" and anything goes is fine. We need information to determine if/which things are working or not. But is safe to assume there are some bugs that are breaking the BG in some systems, this and other groups should have gathered enough data to back this up by now.

I mean: a faction which is under civil unrest for weeks, and lock down before that, an other faction which is pending economic boom in the same system, and the influence is still 'trending up' for the main faction (the one which is under civil unrest), and influences not changing a single bit (not even 0.1%). If that ain't prove that it's not working IDK what is it! And if it's working as intended FD should step up and explain how this is reasonable at all.

You guy must realize is not Mikunn only... this is going in many places. We are starting to record the number of missions ran to have solid proof that it's not working (not that I think it will make a difference but). But as long as the majority are happily playing 'trucking simulator in space' all this will be second priority unfortunately.
 

Michael Brookes

Game Director
An update on this - we've identified two issues that would be causing problems here. The first is that expanding minor factions into nearby systems is causing the changes tobe applied to the wrong systems. There's also an issue where some systems aren't processing the queue of changes in a timely fashion so they haven't been applied yet. We're working on fixes for these two problems.

Michael
 
An update on this - we've identified two issues that would be causing problems here. The first is that expanding minor factions into nearby systems is causing the changes tobe applied to the wrong systems. There's also an issue where some systems aren't processing the queue of changes in a timely fashion so they haven't been applied yet. We're working on fixes for these two problems.

Michael

Thank you, devs......thevs!
 
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