Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.

Defacto

Defacto
vonvonbraun said:
I am not for the removal

i am for leaving the situation as is, it is perfectly fine.

dont fix if aint broken
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I thought we already had reached some kind of conclusion on this part of the discussion, but go ahead...
Tell us more about how SCB's are perfectly fine.

Edit: Also; good night, I'll have to wait until tomorrow to continute this discussion, I'm afraid
 
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defekt

defekt
Excellent news to read that shield potions are being watched and tweaked.

In my humble opinion merely tweaking a fundamentally flawed implementation will not solve the deeply dull combat that results from their use -- I hate to be that voice that laments about how combat 'was much better before these things showed up', but it inescapably was -- but at least these things have been put on the path toward a sensible solution, and I do believe that FD will indeed settle on a sensible solution... eventually.
 

StargazerJ

S
Adept said:
All of this.

I feel the shield cells are some devs baby. Somebody thought the common MMO mechanic was needed in Elite, and it's very hard to let such things go. As an indie dev myself, I know how that feels, and how hard it's to notice when some idea doesn't actually fit, or make the game better.

I think the shield cells will be removed eventually, but we may be stuck with them for a while... Which means I will avoid any PvP as utterly pointless, and just escape, or even kill the process if forced into a combat with them. They just kill the fun pf combat for me.
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I have this feeling too. I don't want to offend anyone because I genuinely feel ED is a shining example with devs passionate about making the best game possible, but I do feel that the ball has been dropped with shield cells. As someone previously pointed out we played for 6 months without them and there didn't seem to be a need for them, now they are like a fly in the ointment. I'm all for adding additional modules over time but I would urge caution against increasing choice and complexity just for the sake of it. Sometimes the beauty in a system is in it's simplicity and adding variety for the sake of it can degrade that beauty. I think this is an example of that.
 

Tar Stone

Banned
Tar Stone
Here's a crazy idea. Why not remove them from the game until a design is reached that makes sense? They're just another beta hangover that needs properly worked out.

My gripe with them is that they ruin the notion of player bounty hunting, which was one of the things keeping me going while everything else gets fleshed out. It just comes down to having to outmatch the number of shield cells that the other guy has, which to my mind makes them redundant before combat even ensues.

They really do feel like magical shield potions. They're a cheap bit of design, no disrespect to the Frontier guys - but this is fundamental stuff and the combat was flipping beautiful, rich, tactical and I really think they've got it wrong here.
 

Armour

A
I think you should only be able to have one rechargeable backup cell. It should take a long time to recharge once used, long enough that you will likely only get one use out of it per battle. It should only be activated when the shield is fully depleted, or the shield cap is overloaded and blows, leaving the user shieldless until they can repair it.
 

CaptainKremmen

CaptainKremmen
Defacto said:
<snip>
My preferred way would be to have the SCB require some SYS charge, then empty the SYS bar, and refill your shields as much as that amount of SYS energy would have regenned the shields with normal regeneration. You gain a short term shield boost, but now you SYS bar is empty, which not only prevents further SCB use, but also stops the slow regeneration until there's power in the capacitor again.

It would also lead to considerations like: My SYS bar is at 50%, so I'll just gain a small shield boost from using an SCB, but maybe I still want to use it, because otherwise my shields might break because of energy fire? Or they might not, and I'm better off charging up the capacitor for a short time and then fire off the SCB?
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That's actually a really graceful mechanic.

With that in play, the shield energy comes wholly from SYS, as it always does... but it's dumped from the SYS capacitor into the shields in a massively accelerated manner.

Energy distribution choices are then as crucial as they were in the early betas.



I say "early" betas, because I'm remembering the boost+FAoff "bleed-off" phase. For those not around then, there were some beta versions whereby boosting then switching to "FA Off" allowed you to cruise at maximum boost speed indefinitely, irrespective of ENG energy. It has an interesting parallel to one aspect of today's Shield Cells:


Old Beta "Boost+FAoff" Mechanic : Allowed you to utilise maximum speed with 0 pips to ENG. 6 pips able to be allocated to WEP/SYS (offensive/defensive).

Current Shield Cell Mechanic : Allows you to utilise maximum shields with 0 pips to SYS. 6 pips able to be allocated to ENG/WEP (offensive/manoeuvrability).



The idea of a magic shield button not being magic at all... but just DUMPING all SYS into shields... that's really tidy.
 

Tar Stone

Banned
Tar Stone
Armour said:
I think you should only be able to have one rechargeable backup cell. It should take a long time to recharge once used, long enough that you will likely only get one use out of it per battle. It should only be activated when the shield is fully depleted, or the shield cap is overloaded and blows, leaving the user shieldless until they can repair it.
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That would be fair enough, but Sandro has said he doesn't want an arbitrary limit to them. There absolutely should be a risk to using them.

The other thing is that he wanted them to be skill based. Interdiction is skill based, look how ridiculously easy that turned out to be after the third or fourth time.
 

Johnny Spaceboots

Johnny Spaceboots
darshu said:
Yeah and as far as i can tell he only just managed to kill 1 player before having to run shortly after...
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Had to run? Haha, please. It seemed more like he got bored of playing with them and decided to leave. I know for a fact that a python can carry many, many more shield cells than he used in that fight.
 

CaptainKremmen

CaptainKremmen
Sybsynk? He was pretty inebriated by then. ;) I wouldn't read too much into his flying or decision-making!

That was, I gather, due to his "1 shot per Shield Cell" drinking game. :D
 

StargazerJ

S
Suggestion

Just throwing it out there. How about instead of shield cells we have a module that is a secondary shield battery. This battery fills up from the SYS pips too but takes longer than the regular shields to recharge; say twice or thrice as long. When your regular shield breaks the backup battery kicks in automatically and you now have 3 rings of a different colour showing your secondary shielding (full strength again). The recharging of your regular shield continues as per normal but you take no damage until your secondary shields are beaten. This effectively doubles your shield HP but only for the initial assault as your secondary shielding will not start recharging until your regular shields are at full strength again. Those in expensive ships who don't want to lose them and gear specifically for defence have a much greater chance of getting away but don't have the offensive advantage that popping cells gives.
 

Kortossis

Kortossis
NeilF said:
Why simply pile in basically with personal jibes/comments? Wouldn't it be more constructive to actually explain the reason for your stance?

To answer your point, "why don't you just use one?" - Many people are now using multiple units because they can simply sit there repeatedly returning their shields to full, over and over and over and over and... guess what.... over and over and over and over... and over and over...

So the problem IMHO seems two fold:-
1) The use of multiple units without any delay/penalty just means people try bringing more than their opponents to the battle field to simply win. If people were limited to one, or there was some significant delay required to move from one to the next, that would help a lot IMHO.
2) The units are too powerful - Multiple full replenishment of your shields? The fact a Viper can simply sit there and replenish its shields six times over numerous minutes sitting 1km or so away from an Anaconda and just out tank it seems to demonstrate the issue perfectly. One of the cheapest ships, outlasting the most expensive basically due to a single device which means the Anaconda can't even get through its shield, yet alone hurt it.

Finally, why aren't NPCs allowed to use these units. Indeed multiples of them?
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Incorrect, they cannot simply do it over and over and over, there are charges..
 

flosculus

F
Shield cells are one of the few ways to take on larger ships than your self. If you want to talk re-balancing, how about reducing cruiser mobility.. those things are impossible to stay behind once they discover assist-off mode.
 

Kortossis

Kortossis
NeilF said:
Why simply pile in basically with personal jibes/comments? Wouldn't it be more constructive to actually explain the reason for your stance?

To answer your point, "why don't you just use one?" - Many people are now using multiple units because they can simply sit there repeatedly returning their shields to full, over and over and over and over and... guess what.... over and over and over and over... and over and over...

So the problem IMHO seems two fold:-
1) The use of multiple units without any delay/penalty just means people try bringing more than their opponents to the battle field to simply win. If people were limited to one, or there was some significant delay required to move from one to the next, that would help a lot IMHO.
2) The units are too powerful - Multiple full replenishment of your shields? The fact a Viper can simply sit there and replenish its shields six times over numerous minutes sitting 1km or so away from an Anaconda and just out tank it seems to demonstrate the issue perfectly. One of the cheapest ships, outlasting the most expensive basically due to a single device which means the Anaconda can't even get through its shield, yet alone hurt it.

Finally, why aren't NPCs allowed to use these units. Indeed multiples of them?
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I also don't just "pile in" because that's what most people do. I made a statement on the topic of this thread, but not everyone elses point on the thread lol.
 

Johnny Spaceboots

Johnny Spaceboots
flosculus said:
Shield cells are one of the few ways to take on larger ships than your self. If you want to talk re-balancing, how about reducing cruiser mobility.. those things are impossible to stay behind once they discover assist-off mode.
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I've had no problems out piloting anacondas in a smaller ship and taking them out without shield cells. Shield cells are a crutch for poor piloting.
 

Kortossis

Kortossis
"I feel" No one should be able to solo an anaconda in a eagle..but its a game and people do, why? The ships are not all balanced well "without" shield cells. If you nerf them, they will have to further balance out the rest of the ships and everyone will be in full NERD RAGE whne it happens. Now I cant solo the ship I used to, Why?
Well now you just have to tank until someones charges run out..and they do run out. When that happens, people blow up.
 
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