Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Hey, look - someone's made an actual appeal to authority. This is what they look like. Oh man, Robert Maynard is going to be well pleased when he sees this. Textbook.

You hadn't made a response to my last post on the topic, so had presumed (dangerous, I know) that we had got past this particular bone of contention.

Happy to worry it some more though, if you want.... ;)
 
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Whether your a backer or not, your opinion and entitlement to provide your opinion is just the same as a regular player who bought the game yesterday.

It doesn't mean that if you're a backer, you are politically correct than the the other player who bought the game yesterday and is giving his opinion.

You are making this sound like some sort of buyer's remorse issue, but it isn't. This forum was created so that Devs understand the opinion of players regarding the different mode of play for the possibility of tweaking the mechanics and making the game more balanced in the future.

This is an online game and things do change through the vision of the Devs aligning it with the feedback of the player base.

So whether you are a backer or not is totally irrelevant.

You got your freebie for being a backer and that should be it. don't expect more privilege than other regular players who PAID and invested on the game.

I wouldn't use the phrase "buyers remorse" maybe buyers anger from what I am reading pretty much since launch and to a slightly lesser extent since gamma.

Just a feeling, I have no proof but I think people would do a bit more research when they are spending £100 / £200, I know I did, it seems a lot of people did none when they bought it at the £35 price.

Thiis is a online game and the game evolves through constant improvement. And this can only be done by the devs effectively communicating with the player base. So don't tell everyone that this thread was created as a buyer's remorse issue or "I was expecting a totally different game play because I didnt research enough" argument.

Sorry, I posted late and maybe I could have been a little clearer.

For the record I joined in PB, by the time I realised they were making Elite kickstarter was long over, so no I am not a backer, I has no voice in these decisions about how the game would be, I heard about it, watched a fair bit of youtube, read the forums for a bit and strangely enough when I bought it it was very similar to what I expected it would be.

And I am sorry but the "I was expecting a totally different game play because I didnt research enough" argument seems to be one of the biggest reasons that people are posting here.

I don't expect any more privilege than other regular players who paid and invested in the game (other than the pre-ordered, paid for DLC), I also did not expect a bunch of people to buy the game at launch and then try to change it because THEY did not do any research, silly me.

Are you sure its not buyers remorse?, it seems to me that a lot of people are unhappy / wan't to change the whole way the game works, satisfied customers who enjoy their purchase do not tend to do that.
 
I thought you were an experienced debator? :/ There is nothing wrong with an appeal to authority as long as that authority is an actual authority on the subject. A real life example being an appeal to a biologist for evidence regarding evolution or a doctor for evidence regarding a medical opinion. The appeal to authority would only be fallacious if the evidence provided by the authority was incorrect. However, in this case, I am not seeking evidence (an appeal to authority) I am judging the relative merits of opinion. Nice try though, shows you are making an effort.

That is the fallacy. Even an expert can be mistaken and a novice can spot something that all have missed. This is why it is considered to be a logical fallacy. It is exactly because you call for opinion that makes it fallacious; this is in contrast to calling for an authority to determine an established fact.

Consider the following...

Pierre told me that Paris is the most romantic city in the world and, as a Frenchman, he should know. - Opinion of an expert.

"I am sorry, but I can assure you that Paris is the capital city of France and not Marseille. As a Frenchman I know this." - Expert asserts established fact.

The former is a fallacy, the latter is not.
 
Oh okay that sounds bad. Now I understand all the bad support rants around the forum. It ruins the game so it should be fixed, but most likely FD got the game released and they got their money and now they don't care about us anymore, I hope it's not true because I like FD but it's been a while since I saw a actual FD dev replying to the comments.
The devs post pretty much every day, so they are clearly reading these boards.
 
I have no issue at all with the current mode system, and see no reason to change it. With that said...

Although everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, you are assigning an equality of opinion that is blatantly false. Backers have been involved with the game since its inception. Some of them were even involved with the design decision making process and almost all of them were involved with the Alpha and Beta testing phases. So they KNOW a LOT. In just the same way that I would trust the opinion of an experienced climber, hunter, driver etc over the opinion of someone who has just read a 'dummies guide' so it makes sense to trust the opinion of a backer over someone who has bought the game after little or no research.
Just because backers have been around for longer doesn't mean that they're smarter, know more about games and game design or are somehow 'better' than non-backers.

There was no 'quality control' on being a backer - no tests of IQ, gaming knowledge, or anything else. A backer can be smart or an idiot, just like anyone else. A good idea is a good idea - and a bad idea is a bad idea - whether it comes from a backer or not.

No. Simply untrue. Although some forums are indeed there so that the devs can take on board player feedback, this feedback is not the same as 'opinion'. As for this subject in particular, all the decisions have been made and the Mode issue is working as intended.
All official game forums exist primarily in order to allow the players of the game to communicate feedback about the game to the developers, and all qualitative feedback is, by definition, opinion.

The important thing to remember is that, unlike some other games where the playerbase have an input into the way the game goes, FD have ALWAYS maintained that they are making the game THEY want. They do not have to listen to the playerbase and haven't on many occaisions, deciding to stick to their guns instead.
This is absolutely no different to any other developer. Ultimately, the final call is up to the people making the game. Wise developers listen to their players and consider their feedback, but they're still the ones that make the decisions, not the players.
 
I have no issue at all with the current mode system, and see no reason to change it. With that said...


Just because backers have been around for longer doesn't mean that they're smarter, know more about games and game design or are somehow 'better' than non-backers.

There was no 'quality control' on being a backer - no tests of IQ, gaming knowledge, or anything else. A backer can be smart or an idiot, just like anyone else. A good idea is a good idea - and a bad idea is a bad idea - whether it comes from a backer or not.


All official game forums exist primarily in order to allow the players of the game to communicate feedback about the game to the developers, and all qualitative feedback is, by definition, opinion.


This is absolutely no different to any other developer. Ultimately, the final call is up to the people making the game. Wise developers listen to their players and consider their feedback, but they're still the ones that make the decisions, not the players.

Rep +1, I agree on this
 
That is the fallacy. Even an expert can be mistaken and a novice can spot something that all have missed. This is why it is considered to be a logical fallacy. It is exactly because you call for opinion that makes it fallacious; this is in contrast to calling for an authority to determine an established fact.

Consider the following...

Pierre told me that Paris is the most romantic city in the world and, as a Frenchman, he should know. - Opinion of an expert.

"I am sorry, but I can assure you that Paris is the capital city of France and not Marseille. As a Frenchman I know this." - Expert asserts established fact.

The former is a fallacy, the latter is not.


Your examples are exactly what I was saying. "...There is nothing wrong with an appeal to authority as long as that authority is an actual authority on the subject. A real life example being an appeal to a biologist for evidence regarding evolution or a doctor for evidence regarding a medical opinion...." But that aside you are also wrong in saying that I have 'called' for opinion. I have not. I have simply compared the opinion of a backer to a non backer and stated which one I would be more inclined to go with. Please stick to the actual argument instead of trying to divert away from it.
 
I have no issue at all with the current mode system, and see no reason to change it. With that said...


Just because backers have been around for longer doesn't mean that they're smarter, know more about games and game design or are somehow 'better' than non-backers.

There was no 'quality control' on being a backer - no tests of IQ, gaming knowledge, or anything else. A backer can be smart or an idiot, just like anyone else. A good idea is a good idea - and a bad idea is a bad idea - whether it comes from a backer or not.

I absolutely agree. However, I was referring to their knowledge gained through experience of ED and its development rather than how smart they are or their knowledge of game design in general. To reiterate; I would add more weight to the opinion of an experienced climber over what rope to use than I would to someone who has just read 'The Big Dummies Guide to Climbing'. That's ALL I was saying.

All official game forums exist primarily in order to allow the players of the game to communicate feedback about the game to the developers, and all qualitative feedback is, by definition, opinion.

An example of qualitative feedback from Beta: 'The space station at xxxx is missing its textures.' Not opinion, just simple feedback of an observation.


This is absolutely no different to any other developer. Ultimately, the final call is up to the people making the game. Wise developers listen to their players and consider their feedback, but they're still the ones that make the decisions, not the players.

How is that contextually different from what I said?
 
Yes, I've always thought those kinds of ideas were an interesting possibility; but realistically, it takes a lot more coordination for a few players to form an organized and fair police force than it does for a large mob of players to form a chaotic gang.

It's not just coordination; many of the tasks needed to have a working society are very boring or tiresome, and as such it's not reasonable to expect players to take matters on their own hands and do a good job of it. Not due to lack of ability, but due to lack of interest, engagement, and, well, fun. This is supposed to be a game, a leisure activity, not a job.

It's akin to how there's always a chronic shortage of tanks, and to a smaller extent healers, in raiding and dungeon running for more common MMOs. It's not that there aren't players that enjoy those roles; rather, the number of players that enjoy them is not enough to allow that aspect of the game to run smoothly.

End result, when you think about the predatory roles and the protector roles in open world PvP games, there are always far too many predators and far too few protectors for the game to be enjoyable for the players that don't want to take part in that kind of player conflict. The closest to getting this working I've ever seen is EVE, but there it's fueled by territorial control, and even then it's becoming more like real world politics in ways that are almost universally seen as harmful for the game: large groups are seeking stability, slowing down changes, pursuing non-aggression pacts with other large groups while stamping out any smaller group that doesn't swear fealty to them, and so on.




Thiis is a online game and the game evolves through constant improvement. And this can only be done by the devs effectively communicating with the player base. So don't tell everyone that this thread was created as a buyer's remorse issue or "I was expecting a totally different game play because I didnt research enough" argument.

Well, many posts from those that want to restrict or remove solo mode do sound a lot like buyers remorse. Many go along the lines, "I thought this was a MMO, in MMOs players can't hide in solo and play, and this is ruining my experience (or harming the economy, or isn't fair for those that don't play solo, or result in a less populated world, or whichever complaint is currently in)." It does feel like those players didn't look into the game or research how multiplayer works before purchasing it.

BTW: yeah, it's an online game (unfortunately), but many players purchased it for the solo mode, or even the sadly removed single player experience. Which is perfectly fine, as the game was always advertised as allowing players to select who they would play with, or even completely isolate themselves if they so desire.




Ah comeon. That is just such a silly comment. Look: During christmas i spent a week in hospital and I played elite. With the hotspot of my mobile. And yeah: It was cool that I could play my original save.....but this was an exceptional event. IF you want/have to spet your time, 2 weeks in a hotel. Well either you start a solo save, or you deal with it, that you can NOT PLAY ELITE FOR TWO SILLY WEEKS. Why should the gameplay for the rest of the year be a mess, just because of two ridiculous weeks. SO yes, my "confidence" as you call it, is in my opinion just normal common sense and if you have a look at the gaming world out there, you might have noticed, that having solo and online in the same save is not a common concept - for good reasons.

Actually, what is almost always kept separate are offline saves from online saves. If the game has a mode where all the data is kept online, it will usually not be possible to import data from playing offline into it, due to hacking concerns.

But solo in ED is not offline. Solo mode is still an online (and even multiplayer, in the sense that it uses the same galaxy) mode.

Now, some ten, fifteen years ago it was the common belief that players that evolved their characters in a game mode without non-consensual PvP should never be allowed to bring that character to a game mode where such non-consensual PvP can happen. But things evolved. UO was one of the first high profile games to allow that, with travel between Trammel (PvE world) and Felucca (PvP world) freely available. WoW, when it first allowed character transfers, had a rule that PvE characters could not be transferred to a PvP realm, with the reasoning that it would trivialize and mock the extra effort in dealing with PvP while leveling; they went back on that a few years ago, realizing that trying to keep the characters segregated made no sense, and nowadays even allow PvP characters to temporarily play on PvE realms by exploring how groups work. DCUO started with segregated PvP and PvE servers, but now allows players to jump back and forth between them as often as they want. And so on.

In other words, sharing the "saves" of characters leveled in an environment with non-consensual PvP and leveled in a "safe" PvE environment is nowadays the rule rather than the exception. Well, that if the game has the two settings at all; there is a trend nowadays where many MMOs release with just the PvE environment, without any kind of non-consensual PvP at all, while a rare few release only with the non-consensual PvP environment.
 
Can someone summarize the last 20 pages or so for me please? Are we at the stage of questioning each others parentage yet?

How many more pages do we need before we agree to disagree and just accept devs will do it the way they want to make it?

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An example of qualitative feedback from Beta: 'The space station at xxxx is missing its textures.' Not opinion, just simple feedback of an observation.
No, that's quantitative feedback, which by definition isn't an opinion. ;)

My point was that both kinds of feedback can be useful for the devs, not just quantitative feedback.

How is that contextually different from what I said?
You implied there was something unique or unusual about FD's approach. I was pointing out that there isn't. ;)
 
Can someone summarize the last 20 pages or so for me please? Are we at the stage of questioning each others parentage yet?

How many more pages do we need before we agree to disagree and just accept devs will do it the way they want to make it?

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I think we're on the third... no fourth time around the great circle. Really we should have a system like they do in parliament where they say "I refer the gentleman to the answer a gave a few moments (posts) ago." Save a lot of time.
 
I think we're on the third... no fourth time around the great circle. Really we should have a system like they do in parliament where they say "I refer the gentleman to the answer a gave a few moments (posts) ago." Save a lot of time.

And even with all those circles i'm still confused. I see three, not two, factions in here:

- Those that like it the way it is (like me).
- Those that want to force me to play open
- Those that don't want to allow me to play open.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
And even with all those circles i'm still confused. I see three, not two, factions in here:

- Those that like it the way it is (like me).
- Those that want to force me to play open
- Those that don't want to allow me to play open.

.... don't forget those who want anyone who wishes to play in more than one mode to require to duplicate effort by creating and progressing more than one commander.
 
And even with all those circles i'm still confused. I see three, not two, factions in here:

- Those that like it the way it is (like me).
- Those that want to force me to play open
- Those that don't want to allow me to play open.

Thanks. Well, i'm fine with the first and last groups, i don't want to play open anyway. The middle group can bite my shiny metal....
 
.... don't forget those who want anyone who wishes to play in more than one mode to require to duplicate effort by creating and progressing more than one commander.

Which is necessary to maintain the integrity of the online component. Surely you won't want to influence something without actually taking part in it. Oh wait, you do.

To be honest, the game is suffering quite badly due to very selfish demands from solo players. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Normal solo mode isn't enough, private groups aren't enough, 5 billion systems isn't even enough! You guys actually insist on having your own private universe and that universe has to be connected to the multiplayer one. It's absolutely insane if you think about it. It's just fear overriding reason, nothing more. You guys create these bizarre victim scenarios in your head and never really get out there. This is why not separating the modes is bad, it destroys the risk vs reward balance completely.
 
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