Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[Alpha November]

The game is what it is. 71 pages of comments, is it really worth it? A less kind person than me would think some of you don't have time to actually play ED because you're commenting on here all day Everyone shake hands and go home.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

Which is necessary to maintain the integrity of the online component. Surely you won't want to influence something without actually taking part in it. Oh wait, you do.

To be honest, the game is suffering quite badly due to very selfish demands from solo players. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Normal solo mode isn't enough, private groups aren't enough, 5 billion systems isn't even enough! You guys actually insist on having your own private universe and that universe has to be connected to the multiplayer one. It's absolutely insane if you think about it. It's just fear overriding reason, nothing more. You guys create these bizarre victim scenarios in your head and never really get out there. This is why not separating the modes is bad, it destroys the risk vs reward balance completely.

^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS!

 

[Alpha November]

Which is necessary to maintain the integrity of the online component. Surely you won't want to influence something without actually taking part in it. Oh wait, you do.

To be honest, the game is suffering quite badly due to very selfish demands from solo players. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Normal solo mode isn't enough, private groups aren't enough, 5 billion systems isn't even enough! You guys actually insist on having your own private universe and that universe has to be connected to the multiplayer one. It's absolutely insane if you think about it. It's just fear overriding reason, nothing more. You guys create these bizarre victim scenarios in your head and never really get out there. This is why not separating the modes is bad, it destroys the risk vs reward balance completely.

I didn't insist on anything. It's the game FD delivered.

 

[Spook]

Which is necessary to maintain the integrity of the online component. Surely you won't want to influence something without actually taking part in it. Oh wait, you do.

To be honest, the game is suffering quite badly due to very selfish demands from solo players. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Normal solo mode isn't enough, private groups aren't enough, 5 billion systems isn't even enough! You guys actually insist on having your own private universe and that universe has to be connected to the multiplayer one. It's absolutely insane if you think about it. It's just fear overriding reason, nothing more. You guys create these bizarre victim scenarios in your head and never really get out there. This is why separating the modes is bad, it destroys the risk vs reward balance completely.

There are no demands from solo players, the design of groups was brought to the table by FD. The thinking behind this has been explained by FD. The only thing the game is suffering from is a certain subset of players who are unable/unwilling to accept the decision was made sometime before November 2012 and has been implemented since.

The game is P2P, the majority of gamers would appear to prefer to tailor their interactions in a way they choose on a session to session basis. Having this dictated by a minority, all be it a vocal minority, wouldn't make much financial sense.

Though I would hazard a guess FD would want more people in open, either PvP or PvE, they probably see that as key to flogging ship skins. Unfortunately for Locked Non-Consensual PvP OPEN Groupers (an oxymoron if ever there was one), even a £10,000 bribe wouldn't appear to have worked, so if they force it they risk loosing PvE and solo players entirely. To do so for a game which is, even at a casual glance, profoundly not based around PvP would be somewhat questionable to say the least.

Much more likely the next step will be restrictions on PvP, either hard outright in the form of PvP flagging or soft in the form of insta gibbing PK'ers in anything safer than an Anarchy system.

Consider what you're asking for, what you get probably won't be what you want.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which is necessary to maintain the integrity of the online component. Surely you won't want to influence something without actually taking part in it. Oh wait, you do.

To be honest, the game is suffering quite badly due to very selfish demands from solo players. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Normal solo mode isn't enough, private groups aren't enough, 5 billion systems isn't even enough! You guys actually insist on having your own private universe and that universe has to be connected to the multiplayer one. It's absolutely insane if you think about it. It's just fear overriding reason, nothing more. You guys create these bizarre victim scenarios in your head and never really get out there. This is why not separating the modes is bad, it destroys the risk vs reward balance completely.

To suggest that solo players have instigated the introduction of the features that are the focus of this discussion is, frankly, ridiculous.

You conveniently forget that the options available to all players with respect to solo; private groups; open and the ability to switch between them on a session by session basis; the fact that we all inhabit the same galactic background simulation, regardless of which mode we play in are design features that have been included by Frontier in the stated game design since the beginning of the Kickstarter, over two years ago.

If Frontier did not want these features then they would not have included them in the (successful) pitch for the game....

The fact that some players do not accept that vision is neither here nor there - it's still Frontier's game and they are still very much in control of it.

 

[Angorak]

What it boils down to, no matter the rationale the open players use, is this..." dangit, I don't have people I can ruin the game for". I think the majority of those complaining are not solo or group players but those dedicated pirate types that want to force everyone into their arena. When I purchase a load of gold or superconductors at station A I want to be able to sell it at station B without someone interdicting me and broadcasting "drop your cargo or die" ..if that's how they get their jollies...too bad.

Here's a thought....FD should spring for another server and transfer all the pirate types so they can have their open pvp environment and kill each other to their hearts content.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

What it boils down to, no matter the rationale the open players use, is this..." dangit, I don't have people I can ruin the game for". I think the majority of those complaining are not solo or group players but those dedicated pirate types that want to force everyone into their arena. When I purchase a load of gold or superconductors at station A I want to be able to sell it at station B without someone interdicting me and broadcasting "drop your cargo or die" ..if that's how they get their jollies...too bad.

Here's a thought....FD should spring for another server and transfer all the pirate types so they can have their open pvp environment and kill each other to their hearts content.

how segregating the modes equals to forcing into pvp arena?

 

[Dabba]

I have seen no indications at all that the game is suffering. The reviews are good, the forums are hopping, and if you actually log into Open mode and play the game you'll see there are a ton of human players operating in the core systems, they're everywhere. The only suffering being done is by the small subset of people that just can't stand the idea that there are people out there having fun in Solo and there is nothing they can do to ruin that fun.

 

[Alpha November]

Mobius organised a very big PvE group which I'm in, surely someone could organise a large PvP group? I'm not suggesting that PvP players be gated into a group. just that the mechanics of the game already allow a wholly PvP experience if people want that and peeps could swap in and out as they like. Isn't it better, both in terms of gameplay and the longevity of ED, that there is a diversity of play styles catered for and people can dip into whichever ones take their fancy? It is a game, people should be able to enjoy it.

 

[Dave1235]

I think we're on the third... no fourth time around the great circle.

Really, is it only the fourth, it feels like sixth.

Really we should have a system like they do in parliament where they say "I refer the gentleman to the answer a gave a few moments (posts) ago." Save a lot of time.

There is a system that's a little bit like that, people quote the Devs posts , you know the people making the game, I would hope they know a bit about it, unfortunately it makes no difference, so I think its broken and I don't know how to fix it .

 

[BigBadB]

Mobius organised a very big PvE group which I'm in, surely someone could organise a large PvP group?

There already is a large PvP group. It's called Open mode.

That doesn't mean everyone in Open mode is actively seeking PvP all the time, but they have chosen to play the game in an open PvP environment.

 

[Joe Spivey]

There already is a large PvP group. It's called Open mode.

That doesn't mean everyone in Open mode is actively seeking PvP all the time, but they have chosen to play the game in an open PvP environment.

Ooooooh you almost had it. Here let me fix it for you.

That doesn't mean everyone in Open mode is actively seeking PvP all the time, but they have chosen to play the game in an open environment which has a small PvP element.

There ya go. No, no trouble at all, just keep practicing, you'll get it

 

[Zenicetus]

Mobius organised a very big PvE group which I'm in, surely someone could organise a large PvP group? I'm not suggesting that PvP players be gated into a group. just that the mechanics of the game already allow a wholly PvP experience if people want that and peeps could swap in and out as they like.

This has been suggested many times, and it has never taken off on a large enough scale to reduce the complaints about mode switching.

I suspect there are two reasons for that. First, many PvP-oriented players don't actually want consensual PvP, but instead a mix of consensual and non-consensual PvP. It's only in the All Online mode that they can find human targets that aren't actually all that interested in PvP-for-PvP's sake. They wouldn't find that in a Private PvP Group.

There was also an objection from some that it wouldn't be worthwhile, because nobody would intentionally join a PvP-oriented Private Group unless they were flying tooled-up Pythons and Anacondas. Maybe a reasonable objection, but also an indication that some of these players weren't actually looking for a fair or challenging fight.

The second reason we don't see PvP Private Groups is that some players have suggested it, but with a lock-in requirement. In other words, some method to prevent players from ever switching out of that group. Or alternatively, a flag that would prevent players from re-entering the group if they had ever gone into another mode like Solo or another Private Group. There seemed to be a strong psychological need to know for sure (and not simply trust) that players would never be in any other mode, ever. Without a lock-in, they weren't interested. So the idea fell apart.

 

[Antmax]

What it boils down to, no matter the rationale the open players use, is this..." dangit, I don't have people I can ruin the game for". I think the majority of those complaining are not solo or group players but those dedicated pirate types that want to force everyone into their arena. When I purchase a load of gold or superconductors at station A I want to be able to sell it at station B without someone interdicting me and broadcasting "drop your cargo or die" ..if that's how they get their jollies...too bad.

Here's a thought....FD should spring for another server and transfer all the pirate types so they can have their open pvp environment and kill each other to their hearts content.

Braben already said that they have that planned for repeat offenders that the server flags as being a repeat offender of the griefing kind. They may be discreetly removed from open (without their knowledge) and put in a group with other like players. Kind of like going to jail I guess. A kind of ED purgatory.

He states it in one of the dev video diaries and a couple of other places over the last couple of years.

 

[Asp Explorer]

without someone interdicting me and broadcasting "drop your cargo or die" ..if that's how they get their jollies...too bad.

For some there is always "change your router password and disable remote assistance on your PC before I kill your client and send all your pr0n to your mum" - it works wonders

 

[Alpha November]

This has been suggested many times, and it has never taken off on a large enough scale to reduce the complaints about mode switching.

I suspect there are two reasons for that. First, many PvP-oriented players don't actually want consensual PvP, but instead a mix of consensual and non-consensual PvP. It's only in the All Online mode that they can find human targets that aren't actually all that interested in PvP-for-PvP's sake. They wouldn't find that in a Private PvP Group.

There was also an objection from some that it wouldn't be worthwhile, because nobody would intentionally join a PvP-oriented Private Group unless they were flying tooled-up Pythons and Anacondas. Maybe a reasonable objection, but also an indication that some of these players weren't actually looking for a fair or challenging fight.

The second reason we don't see PvP Private Groups is that some players have suggested it, but with a lock-in requirement. In other words, some method to prevent players from ever switching out of that group. Or alternatively, a flag that would prevent players from re-entering the group if they had ever gone into another mode like Solo or another Private Group. There seemed to be a strong psychological need to know for sure (and not simply trust) that players would never be in any other mode, ever. Without a lock-in, they weren't interested. So the idea fell apart.

OK, well thanks for the explanation although I don't quite get it. I'd have thought that if ED allows for a group of PvP players to be formed then they'll get what they want and it'll also allow others to play the way they want in peace (win-win for all concerned) but your explanation indicates that it is a utopian and perhaps naïve view on my part. It's a game and people therefore want to enjoy what they paid for; it can't be right that some wreck the game for others. Personally I think ED has it right; allowing a diversity of play styles and groupings.

 

[AJ79]

Just a friendly reminder of how and why the game is designed as it is, would not want anyone new to the thread to make wild claims without reading up first

From the Kickstarter;
*And the best part - you can do all this online with your friends, or other "Elite" pilots like yourself, or even alone. The choice is yours...*
*you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends? Cooperate on adventures or chase your friends down to get that booty. The game will work in a seamless, lobby-less way, with the ability to rendezvous with friends
*Play it your way*
Your reputation is affected by your personal choices. Play the game your way: dangerous pirate, famous explorer or notorious assassin - the choice is yours to make. Take on missions and affect the world around you, alone or with your friends.*
*You simply play the game, and depending on your configuration (your choice) *
*We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will,*

From the forum archives;
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6300

All Players Group– Players in this group will be matched with each other as much as possible to ensure as many human players can meet and play together
Private Group – Players in this group will only be matched with other players in the same private group
Solo Group – Players in this group won’t be matched with anyone else ever (effectively a private group with no one else invited)
(All by a Lead Designer)

Also DB on Multiplayer and Grouping and Single (01:00 - 02:01)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5JYRyhxYhI&list=PL7glm5rbPHKyBblUEjmm2PFkwJ4ykuz6s&index=18

DB on "Griefing" and "Griefers"
(Listen out for the part where FD can move them in to a private group of just each other)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5hqjxmf4M

Rededit Topic on "unusual event for players to come against players" (With Twitch Video)
http://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDanger...will_be_an_unusual_event_for_players_to_come/

Direct Twitch Link; (Note DB use "Occasonial" and "unusual" regarding players interacting)
http://www.twitch.tv/egx/b/571962295?t=69m00s

Also, MMO does not mean "social" (It means lots of people connected)

A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet. MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ.



If I missed anything, let me know.

 

[Angorak]

how segregating the modes equals to forcing into pvp arena?

You missed my point or you don't understand segregation. You ask how? You obviously want to take the "consensual" out of the game. In effect the whole Galaxy becomes a pvp arena. There would be no "safe" zones where I or others that enjoy solo play now could feel absolutely secure in the knowledge that one of your type couldn't interdict and extort cargo and then blow us up anyway. PvP open players want to force desegregation so they have targets at the expense of the traders, miners and explorers that want nothing less than to be left alone.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I have seen no indications at all that the game is suffering. The reviews are good, the forums are hopping, and if you actually log into Open mode and play the game you'll see there are a ton of human players operating in the core systems, they're everywhere. The only suffering being done is by the small subset of people that just can't stand the idea that there are people out there having fun in Solo and there is nothing they can do to ruin that fun.

THIS +1^^^^^^^^

 

[Faded Glory]

This has been suggested many times, and it has never taken off on a large enough scale to reduce the complaints about mode switching.

I suspect there are two reasons for that. First, many PvP-oriented players don't actually want consensual PvP, but instead a mix of consensual and non-consensual PvP. It's only in the All Online mode that they can find human targets that aren't actually all that interested in PvP-for-PvP's sake. They wouldn't find that in a Private PvP Group.

There was also an objection from some that it wouldn't be worthwhile, because nobody would intentionally join a PvP-oriented Private Group unless they were flying tooled-up Pythons and Anacondas. Maybe a reasonable objection, but also an indication that some of these players weren't actually looking for a fair or challenging fight.

The second reason we don't see PvP Private Groups is that some players have suggested it, but with a lock-in requirement. In other words, some method to prevent players from ever switching out of that group. Or alternatively, a flag that would prevent players from re-entering the group if they had ever gone into another mode like Solo or another Private Group. There seemed to be a strong psychological need to know for sure (and not simply trust) that players would never be in any other mode, ever. Without a lock-in, they weren't interested. So the idea fell apart.

I suspect you have it right, sadly. The really vocal ones don't seem want a fair or challenging fight, so raise the objection that those playing solo will have an advantage through size of ships when it comes to combat if / when they switch to open mode. Personally I don't think this would happen, as ship and load out probably wouldn't compensate for lack of flying and combat skills. Not saying that those complaining of this have great flying or combat skills, nor that they don't, I have no idea.

OK, well thanks for the explanation although I don't quite get it. I'd have thought that if ED allows for a group of PvP players to be formed then they'll get what they want and it'll also allow others to play the way they want in peace (win-win for all concerned) but your explanation indicates that it is a utopian and perhaps naïve view on my part. It's a game and people therefore want to enjoy what they paid for; it can't be right that some wreck the game for others. Personally I think ED has it right; allowing a diversity of play styles and groupings.

I actually agree that a group for this could have lots of avenues to make this kind of role play more fun. Traders could hire mercenaries to protect them, discuss tactics, pirates could try and bribe mercenaries to be double agents so to speak. I suspect that wings might help here too, as I think the current multiplayer system may not be robust enough for people to actually coordinate meeting up and flying together due to instancing. I don't know. It still won't address the points that Zenicetus makes regarding the motivations of the (presumably) few people who are creating the bad image of pirates everywhere. FWIW, I'm not a pirate, and don't believe that pirating when it's done right should end up with the destruction of a victims ship, especially if they accede to the pirate's demands, and that I suspect from what I read on the forums is what turns people away from open mode. They tried to role play, to have fun with other live players, and ended up just being used for target practice 'fun'.

 

[Asp Explorer]

FWIW, I'm not a pirate, and don't believe that pirating when it's done right should end up with the destruction of a victims ship, especially if they accede to the pirate's demands, and that I suspect from what I read on the forums is what turns people away from open mode. They tried to role play, to have fun with other live players, and ended up just being used for target practice 'fun'.

In my experience - true pirating doesn't turn people away - it makes the game fun. I'm not a pirate, but having the experience of another Commander demanding your cargo or something nasty will happen - is a game of both skill and wits. It's extremely entertaining.

What isn't fun though - are the mindless pew-pew crew. There is no skill or wit involved in those encounters - and many Commanders have taken to logging off or alternative means of getting rid of them.

The solution, to me, appears simple. Mindlessly kill every pew-pew you see