Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.

[Defacto]

LOL... NO. If I wanted to "shut you down" all you'd hear from me is *plonk* because I've been on the internet since before it had that name and know how to use an ignore list or a killfile. I do respect your opinion, I'm just curious why you hold it. Currently mine differs from yours but I'm open to persuasion. My own experience is that shield cells do not trivialize combat, they are simply another dynamic to take into account. I've seen nothing in the videos posted or the anecdotes in thread comments to change my opinion. If you've got something better then I would welcome you showing it, and would view it with an open mind. So far, though, I've not seen anything that rises to that level.

Well in the first Video, we saw how an Anaconda frontally facing a Viper couldn't take the Vipers shields down because of Shield cells.
In the second we saw how two Vipers and a Cobra wore down a Python's shields over and over again, only for the Python to simply refill them. They poured practically constant fire on the Python for 7 minutes until the Python casually decided to frameshift away. The Python never took any damage.

I've had my own experience with using shield cells too, both when facing players and NPC's. I think it's especially sad for the NPC's, since players at least have the opportunity of fitting SCB's and using them properly. NPC's sometimes try but they always pop them off too late.

They're certainly a dynamic to take into account, but they also remove other dynamics from a position where they have to be taken into account. I find that they are a ''false feature'', something that removes more than its existence.

 

[DaveB]

Then you're not looking hard enough.



Oh great sage, I will take you up on your suggestion. *plonk*

Let's make it mutual.

 

[tagos]

It would take a lot more than 1 shot with an ASP, especially if the anaconda has pips in shields. The conda could literally just put pips in shields and use shield potions until you ran out of railgun ammo. It can fit much, much more than 30 scbs. You can't carry more than 30 shots of railgun.

And if a pilot makes that tactical choice and gives up a ton of other stuff then if you're good enough you wear down his shields and force him to use his cells with beam weapons. Or have more rail guns. The answer to shield cells is being better. And if you're not good enough, retreat.

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All the NPCs need to be packing shield cells if they stay. I doubt you will enjoy the PvE combats much after that.

I'll enjoy it immensely. Bring it on.

 

[Adept]

Of course, if they make NPC's use them, I doubt Frontier would have the Anaconda's and other ships spam them as much as players do, unfortunately.

I'd like to see peoples reactions when npc anacondas, loaded out with 50 shield cells, are the norm.

I believe that would finally drive the point home. What else would an Elite rated terrorist be packing?

 

[Defacto]

And if a pilot makes that tactical choice and gives up a ton of other stuff then if you're good enough you wear down his shields and force him to use his cells with beam weapons. Or have more rail guns. The answer to shield cells is being better. And if you're not good enough, retreat.

By that, do you mean that objectively, ships fitting SCB's are universally better than any ship not fitting SCB's? That is the only way I can interpret the statement that the only way to counter shield cells is being better, if that is exactly what you mean.
I would not agree with that, but if that would be true, then truly, would SCB's, universally being an item which outclasses any kind of setup not including them, follow the very definition of an overpowered item?

Especially considering all the negative implications (maybe not objective) to the fighting experience that SCB's introduce, would this not be a very strong cause for removal or rework of SCB's?

I believe that would finally drive the point home. What else would an Elite rated terrorist be packing?

And don't forget, tweak the AI so that it actually uses them properly...
Ah, that would be painful...

 

[tagos]

And in what ship were you in? To say that a module that can take shields from 1% to 100% in a matter of seconds is not a massive buff is factually wrong, especially when you can do that more than 30 times on most ships. Sounds like you were asleep at the wheel and didn't activate your potions soon enough.

I was spinning and activating. Better pilot, with better weapons in a bigger ship. Or should I start a thread complaining how fixed cannons are OP? I could do, but maybe i'll just try and learn from the experience, maybe work on getting that good with fixed cannons.

 

[DaveB]

They're certainly a dynamic to take into account, but they also remove other dynamics from a position where they have to be taken into account. I find that they are a ''false feature'', something that removes more than its existence.

Right. I agree with you there. I'm not sure that it rises to the level of "removing more than they contribute" but honestly.. viper in front of a peeved 'conda? what was the 'conda's loadout that they didn't have high enough alpha to zap the viper's shields quickly enough? Or could the 'conda pilot not get their high alpha on target quickly enough? 3v1 on a Python and the Python just tanked it? I'm guessing the Python had a LOT of SCBs. They had to make a tradeout on their outfitting for that.

There ARE players in this game that can overcome the advantage of SCBs. I've done it a few times but I wouldn't claim to have the skill to do it reliably, but it remains a fact that it can be done. I've suffered it too. That's why I'm asking what the big deal is.

 

[aowqyaaw]

I was spinning and activating. Better pilot, with better weapons in a bigger ship. Or should I start a thread complaining how fixed cannons are OP? I could do, but maybe i'll just try and learn from the experience, maybe work on getting that good with fixed cannons.

Tagos, I'm curious, what would you be losing if they removed shield cells from the game?

 

[tagos]

By that, do you mean that objectively, ships fitting SCB's are universally better than any ship not fitting SCB's?.

So what? Why not? And good only for combat. If that makes it hard for you, get better. Nothing beats being good. This happens in every MMO. The answer to health potions or whatever always lie in being better, whether it's equipment or tactics.

 

[Adept]

By that, do you mean that objectively, ships fitting SCB's are universally better than any ship not fitting SCB's? That is the only way I can interpret the statement that the only way to counter shield cells is being better, if that is exactly what you mean.
I would not agree with that, but if that would be true, then truly, would SCB's, universally being an item which outclasses any kind of setup not including them, follow the very definition of an overpowered item?

Especially considering all the negative implications (maybe not objective) to the fighting experience that SCB's introduce, would this not be a very strong cause for removal or rework of SCB's?



And don't forget, tweak the AI so that it actually uses them properly...
Ah, that would be painful...

Of course, and when Wings arrive, the terrorist Anaconda will have half a dozen escorts. Everybody popping shield cells on both sides, and all of us who remember the time before beta 2 will cry... Such a silly state for the game with such awesomely polished combat framework since Alpha 1.0

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Tagos, I'm curious, what would you be losing if they removed shield cells from the game?

Understanding that they are not just taken from you, they will no longer exist. Flying and energy management will again be king, not QTE.

 

[aowqyaaw]

not QTE.

Ha, brilliant.

 

[Defacto]

So what? Why not? And good only for combat. If that makes it hard for you, get better. Nothing beats being good. This happens in every MMO. The answer to health potions or whatever always lie in being better, whether it's equipment or tactics.

Well that kind of sucks
I don't think it is the intention of FD to have a single internal module rule how combat flows. Or, well, I know that's not the intention, because they're changing SCB's. You seem to not think so, but I think we have established why this would be a bad thing (or rather, why it is), and it is being changed.

 

[darshu]

Well that kind of sucks
I don't think it is the intention of FD to have a single internal module rule how combat flows. Or, well, I know that's not the intention, because they're changing SCB's. You seem to not think so, but I think we have established why this would be a bad thing (or rather, why it is), and it is being changed.

There isn't really any other internal for combat at the moment i don't see why it should be surprising we are seeing so many people use them. The bigger multipurpose ships are slower but have many internals if they want to give up cargo,fuel scope or scanners for shield cells that's a trade off they have to make. I think when Actual dedicated fighters and combat ships are released they will have equal or greater fire power to ships like the python but with very few internals. You will likely have to choose between FSD Interdictor, Hatch breaker or a shield cell. While still being very mobile in comparison to multipurpose ships. So the problem imo is we only really have the Viper to deal with these tanks.

 

[Defacto]

There isn't really any other internal for combat at the moment i don't see why it should be surprising we are seeing so many people use them. The bigger multipurpose ships are slower but have many internals if they want to give up cargo,fuel scope or scanners for shield cells that's a trade off they have to make. I think when Actual dedicated fighters and combat ships are released they well have equal or greater fire power to ships like the python but with very few internals. You will likely have to choose between FSD Interdictor, Hatch breaker or a shield cell. While still being very mobile in comparison to multipurpose ships. So the problem imo is we only really have the Viper to deal with these tanks.

I don't really think that's the problem, although I see what you mean.
And if what you say is true and we get some really large combat ships (like Cutters), that kind of leaves Vipers obsolete in this state... and if these new ships do have that firepower, then we're getting lightning-short combat times, and preventing these were pretty much the design decision that originally led to the inception of the SCB's in the first place (as far as I've heard). Wouldn't it then be better to just dump SCB's entirely, increase ship hull and shield strength across the board, and also increase the armor values of heavy ships? That is if combat being too short even is a problem.

Good night all. I wonder when (if) we're getting news on what exactly is going to change with the SCB's.

 

[darshu]

I don't really think that's the problem, although I see what you mean.
And if what you say is true and we get some really large combat ships (like Cutters), that kind of leaves Vipers obsolete in this state... and if these new ships do have that firepower, then we're getting lightning-short combat times, and preventing these were pretty much the design decision that originally led to the inception of the SCB's in the first place (as far as I've heard). Wouldn't it then be better to just dump SCB's entirely, increase ship hull and shield strength across the board, and also increase the armor values of heavy ships? That is if combat being too short even is a problem.

Good night all. I wonder when (if) we're getting news on what exactly is going to change with the SCB's.

I think that is a quick fix and one that would work but I'm just not a fan of removing content as a solution. Replacing or modifying sure but taking toys away from players that don't have many to start with doesn't seem like the best option to me. If something is effective there needs to be a effective counter. People don't seem to like the idea that they have to equip themselves a certain way to counter a opponent but this has been the basis of ever space sim/combat game i have loved. Again i think the problem is lack of content we have to counter. if we had multiple combat modules of equal power we would have much more variety but since we run into the same ship build over and over it seems like a nuisance having to build to counter the only combat module we are given.

 

[bassman]

The bigger multipurpose ships are slower but have many internals if they want to give up cargo,fuel scope or scanners for shield cells that's a trade off they have to make.

In anything from a cobra upwards your not really sacrificing much to fit cells - a whopping 4 cargo slots, and a few extra tons of weight, (compared to say adding 27 tonnes to get decent hull armour), Ive still got another 4 internal compartments to fit whatever else I want. There is essentially near zero downside to fitting cells - no real "tradeoff" as such.

 

[darshu]

In anything from a cobra upwards your not really sacrificing much to fit cells - a whopping 4 cargo slots, and a few extra tons of weight, (compared to say adding 27 tonnes to get decent hull armour), Ive still got another 4 internal compartments to fit whatever else I want. There is essentially near zero downside to fitting cells - no real "tradeoff" as such.

If your goal is to fit a multipurpose ship for combat i agree but my view on it from the previous post is "I think when Actual dedicated fighters and combat ships are released they will have equal or greater fire power to ships like the python but with very few internals. You will likely have to choose between FSD Interdictor, Hatch breaker or a shield cell. While still being very mobile in comparison to multipurpose ships. So the problem imo is we only really have the Viper to deal with these tanks."

 

[aowqyaaw]

I think that is a quick fix and one that would work but I'm just not a fan of removing content as a solution.

If shield cells = content, then we're in trouble.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

A few quick questions, which go to the core of why I no longer use Shield Cells (and an apology in advance, for using some of those hackneyed old PvE/PvP terms in here):


When using shield cells,

1. Do you feel invincible when engaging NPCs, or are you sometimes challenged? And do you enjoy the feeling?
2. Do you feel invincible when engaging PvE-equipped CMDRs, or are you sometimes challenged? And do you enjoy the feeling?
3. Do you feel invincible when engaging PvP-equipped CMDRs, or are you sometimes challenged? And do you enjoy the feeling?


Here's me:

When using Shield Cells, answers were:

1. Invincible, didn't enjoy it.
2. Invincible, didn't enjoy it.
3. Challenged, enjoyed it.


After deciding to avoid equipping Shield Cells on my ships, answers were:

1. Sometimes challenged, enjoyed it.
2. Usually challenged, enjoyed it.
3. Challenged (usually wiped, lol), enjoyed it.

 

[darshu]

If shield cells = content, then we're in trouble.

Every module in the game is content by definition. I don't think we are in trouble because of that?