Imperial Slavery is still Slavery!

[Sentenza]

During the year 2727, His Imperial Majesty, Emperor Vitellius Duval purged our great civilization of the villainous bankers. Interest rates went with it.

Creative economy! Now I know why you need slavery.

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Are you not bothered at all by the fact that you're RPing a slaver? Not to mention you're a foot soldier for a dictatorship. You might find that fun and amusing - I find it disturbing. It's like roleplaying a National Socialist or a member of the SS or something - It just seems wrong. I get that people like to roleplay, but how can you WANT to play the role of slaver? I don't think I'll ever understand the draw...

Wait a minute, are you not bothered by the fact of RPing, say, a pirate? Real pirates weren't Jack Sparrow, you know. Slavers were good, pious guys compared to most of them.

 

[BigBadB]

fact is, in the empire, if you gave a citizen the choice between indentured servitude or starving in the streets without a home or job, hed pick indentured servitude, because it has a definitive end-period aswell as promise of standard living conditions while bound to contract, and theyd be happy with it. thats their culture, thats what is "right" to them.

This idea that Imperial slavery has some predefined duration, where does it come from? I see it mentioned a lot, but I can't find any reference to it in the game or on the official site.

who are you to morally judge something as "wrong" simply because it deviates from your somehow god-given culture?

I am someone who believes in the concept of universal human rights and rejects moral relativism on multiple grounds, not least of which being that it precludes any useful discussion of morality and thus is equivalent to moral nihilism.

But that's probably a bit heavy for a game forum, so let's just say I don't like slavery.

 

[Hekantonkheries]

Creative economy! Now I know why you need slavery.

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Wait a minute, are you not bothered by the fact of RPing, say, a pirate? Real pirates weren't Jack Sparrow, you know. Slavers were good, pious guys compared to most of them.

actually, strong evidence suggests pirates in ED are more sociopathic than pirates in traditional "golden age" days. privateers were oft paid bounties on ships destroyed, but PIRATES, having no reliable governing entity to rely on for resupply at any given time (sometimes local governors woudl look the other way if their ships were left alone and only the other guys were pillaged), pirates would often simply raise their flag to threaten violence. Traders, not wanting to risk their life for someone else's goods, would usually stop and allow themselves to be boarded, the pirates then asked if any recruits wanted to leave with them, then the rest were given food/water and a boat to reach land, the ship itself would either be cammandeered or scuttled to prevent pursuit.

pirates generally wanted to avoid KILLING people, because if people started being afraid to get on trade ships because theyd likely die, then not only would the pirates lose business (and have to fight more of their battles rather than receiving their rewards peacefully), theyd be more liekly to incur the local governor or flotilla's wrath.

 

[Kadius]

This idea that Imperial slavery has some predefined duration, where does it come from? I see it mentioned a lot, but I can't find any reference to it in the game or on the official site.

Imperial Slavery hasn't been explained in depth, we don't know things like, the status of children born to slaves, contract duration, standards of living and such, so there is no 'official' answer, it's all just based on how we players view it, which I suppose fits with the 'use your imagination' theme they have going.

In other words, we're mostly making this stuff up.

 

[kelticfury]

Imperial Slavery hasn't been explained in depth, we don't know things like, the status of children born to slaves, contract duration, standards of living and such, so there is no 'official' answer, it's all just based on how we players view it, which I suppose fits with the 'use your imagination' theme they have going.

In other words, we're mostly making this stuff up.

The imperial way is the RIGHT way. All others are intrinsically wrong.

 

[Goose4291]

Imperial slavery is more akin to indentured servitude as seen within Summerian culture, with the individual agreeing to the terms and conditions of their contract before signing on the dotted line of their own free volition, their rights confirmed by the senate to ensure a good quality of life for the individual (as can be seen regarding the lore reference the transportation of Imperial vs. standard slaves) whilst they strive to repay debts they have defaulted on.

This is somewhat different to the concept of rolling up on a shore, throwing a net on some chap and then dragging them off to work on their new masters' plantation that people seem to be confusing it with.

 

[Dystopiana]

Reading the text in the Market place for Imperial slaves (which for those that haven't gone to systems that show it: Slavery is an important part of Imperial Society, providing labour for the Empire and a safety net for it's citizens. Many Imperials will choose to sell themselves into a fixed period of slavery than face the embarrassment and dishonour of living with a debt) definitely sounds like it could be more akin to indentured servitude than traditional slavery...at least in the cases of voluntary slavery. It also gives a sense that the Empire is very anti-debt, culturally so. And given how easy it is in at least America (and how surprisingly often it can happen) to accrue a debt one either can't or struggles with paying...well I can believe there'd be a plenty of people in a civilization that probably has 100x more people than currently lives on Earth currently that would seek that sort of recourse.

And if the Empire's college/university system is anything like America's....well then I can see plenty of people signing up straight out of college just to pay off their student loans. Of course they could also have socialized education so who knows on that.

 

[Grendahl]

... I am someone who believes in the concept of universal human rights and rejects moral relativism on multiple grounds, not least of which being that it precludes any useful discussion of morality and thus is equivalent to moral nihilism....

And therein lies your problem. You believe in the concept as much as you like, doesn't make it reality in any shape or form. Your latter argument is a touch circular, no?

 

[TANDKO]

Are you not bothered at all by the fact that you're RPing a slaver? Not to mention you're a foot soldier for a dictatorship. You might find that fun and amusing - I find it disturbing. It's like roleplaying a National Socialist or a member of the SS or something - It just seems wrong. I get that people like to roleplay, but how can you WANT to play the role of slaver? I don't think I'll ever understand the draw...

As you said - deal with it

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Reading the text in the Market place for Imperial slaves (which for those that haven't gone to systems that show it: Slavery is an important part of Imperial Society, providing labour for the Empire and a safety net for it's citizens. Many Imperials will choose to sell themselves into a fixed period of slavery than face the embarrassment and dishonour of living with a debt) definitely sounds like it could be more akin to indentured servitude than traditional slavery...at least in the cases of voluntary slavery. It also gives a sense that the Empire is very anti-debt, culturally so. And given how easy it is in at least America (and how surprisingly often it can happen) to accrue a debt one either can't or struggles with paying...well I can believe there'd be a plenty of people in a civilization that probably has 100x more people than currently lives on Earth currently that would seek that sort of recourse.

And if the Empire's college/university system is anything like America's....well then I can see plenty of people signing up straight out of college just to pay off their student loans. Of course they could also have socialized education so who knows on that.

There is no description on education system of the Empire. As the debt is considered dishonorable so it might be implied that getting a college/university degree does not involve loans. It might be free or paid by debt-free parents - parent-child relationship is also seems to be different in the Empire, prone to more Asian approach.

 

[Flying Penguin]

As you said - deal with it

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There is no description on education system of the Empire. As the debt is considered dishonorable so it might be implied that getting a college/university degree does not involve loans. It might be free or paid by debt-free parents - parent-child relationship is also seems to be different in the Empire, prone to more Asian approach.

It's more specific than that. It refers to an unpaid debt and being unable to pay. That to me suggests debt isn't itself bad (so student loans or similar wouldn't be outlawed), but falling behind on payment is a terrible dishonour.

If debt was totally verboten, how would you be unable to pay one? Plus there would be lots of out ofwork bankers. Wait.... That sounds like an alright system

 

[Dystopiana]

It's more specific than that. It refers to an unpaid debt and being unable to pay. That to me suggests debt isn't itself bad (so student loans or similar wouldn't be outlawed), but falling behind on payment is a terrible dishonour.

If debt was totally verboten, how would you be unable to pay one? Plus there would be lots of out ofwork bankers. Wait.... That sounds like an alright system

True...though student loans are some of the most...risky? don't know if that's the word...seeing as how they're given out to people that alot of times don't have jobs...and may have problems getting a job after graduation. That and at least in the grand ol' US of A student loan companies are some of the most tenacious. All of my friends that are further along in their education are more worried about paying them off than they are on things like mortgages and electric bills.

 

[Zvanya]

The Pilots Federation is against slavery Commanders.

View attachment 9713

And you believe them when they say they are going to help those slaves "start over".

There's a sucker born every minute.

 

[Ayerc]

In the last big "All Slavery is Bad, mmmk" thread, a few aspects of Imperial Slavery came to light:

1) Imperial Slaves choose to become slaves. This is a critical step in the process, and as such, children are never born into slavery. I don't recall if there is a statutory age of consent to become a slave or not, I believe there is.
2) Imperial Slaves remain citizens of the Empire, and retain some of their rights.
3) Some Imperial Slaves exit their period of slavery in a better position than they entered into.

A couple of aspects of Empire society to keep in mind:

1) Honor and Influence are paramount. Mistreatment and suppression of Imperial Slaves' rights could harm the honor of a Master, however, without a resulting loss of influence, there is no check to balance. This means that the spirit of Imperial Slavery is established honestly, however, it is ultimately subject to the honor of the Master.
2) Senators are above the law. Though they may usually act within the law, there is no requirement for this. Thus, a Master operating in a given Senator's system is more subject to that Senator's influence than the law of the Empire.

The resultants here are:

1) Imperial Slaves may have it better than other slaves (past or present).
2) Imperial Slavery sounds great on paper, but may be awful in practice.

With that said, I'm a proud citizen of the Empire who lives by our honored traditions one of which, is Imperial Slavery. If you don't like it, good, the Empire doesn't need you for anything more than target practice anyway.

Note:
I believe there is more information regarding Imperial Slavery within the DDF, but I'm not 100%. Anyone interested can go look and link.


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True...though student loans are some of the most...risky? don't know if that's the word...seeing as how they're given out to people that alot of times don't have jobs...and may have problems getting a job after graduation. That and at least in the grand ol' US of A student loan companies are some of the most tenacious. All of my friends that are further along in their education are more worried about paying them off than they are on things like mortgages and electric bills.

Not so risky since here in the good ol' US of A, Student Loan debt is the only kind of debt that can't be cleared through Bankruptcy. Thus, once you have it, the only way to clear it is to pay it back.

 

[Dystopiana]

Not so risky since here in the good ol' US of A, Student Loan debt is the only kind of debt that can't be cleared through Bankruptcy. Thus, once you have it, the only way to clear it is to pay it back.

well meant it's more risky to the person that has to pay it than to the company itself lol

 

[DimGook]

Imperial Slaves are just h1b workers

 

[Ayerc]

well meant it's more risky to the person that has to pay it than to the company itself lol

My mistake. Your assessment is spot on then!

Can you tell I have Student Loan debt currently? lol

 

[Ttaskmaster]

Lies. There is simply no way that all Imperial slaves are 'volunteers'. You'd never get enough slaves to make a significant economic impact on an interstellar civilisation that way.

And yet they are, because they believe it is better to enter indentured servitude for a fixed period, remain Imperial citizens and retain most of their rights, clear their debts and possibly even emerge better off than before, rather than suffer the shame of being in debt.
This is their own personal belief... and you want to stamp all over that with your Federation democracy claptrap?

I'm no fan of the Federation, either, but at least their system is based on principles of democracy and freedom, however corrupt the current government may have become.

Doesn't matter what it's *based* on. If it's a steaming pile of rotten excrement, however you try and dress it up that's still all it is... and the Federation steams like a boiling kettle!

More lies. They're not called 'Imperial contracted workers', they're called 'Imperial Slaves'. You know why? Because they're slaves.

So is a Viper called a Viper because it's a snake, then?
Does a Federation Dropship actually drop?
The definition of 'slave' varies from culture to culture and even between individuals. You CANNOT put your own cultural values onto someone else's. That would be wrong... even though the Federation tries it anyway - In fact, that probably makes them more like dictators themselves than the supposed 'bad guys' they're having a go at!

* Marriage may be allowed by the slave's owner. Guess what their children will be? Slaves. From birth

The slave is indentured. The child is not on the contract (unless specifically stated), so is by default NOT indentured in any way.

* Property can't own property

Slaves aren't property. They are contracted workers. A closer analogy would be 'prisoner', but even then they have far greater freedoms than the imprisoned.

* Property can't vote. And even if it could, the Empire is a despotic autocracy, not a democracy. Hard to vote when there aren't any elections

Good thing they're not property then, eh!

* Slaves may be able to bear witness. In ancient Rome, the model that Marlin Duval based the Empire on, they could only bear witness when tortured. If they weren't tortured, their testimony wasn't admissible. Sound familiar?

"Based on". Not an exact replica of.
This isn't Ancient Rome, in case you hadn't noticed...

* Hard to serve on a jury when the Empire doesn't have trial by jury

It's still a right they have.
FedBoys still have the "right to a fair trial"... but it's hard to get that when every Federation judge and jury member is in the pocket of the corporation you're up against!

* Legal action against their owners? Don't make me laugh

That is actually one thing that definitely existed in previous slavery cultures, which the Empire *has* included in today's world.

 

[Witzo]

Once you become a debt slave, it's very hard to get out.

I take it as the game's social criticism.

 

[antonygoldrick]

The problem here is the word "Slave". It has to many social negative connotations for most Fed's to understand the nuances of the Imperial meaning.

Unless you were raised within the Empire I doubt you would truly understands us.

In our ancient past on Earth the Western nations first used slavery as a tool and for profit they then abolished it and there for it was forever frowned upon.

We of the Empire chose a different path and took the mantel of the Romans as our own.

Yes we have our slaves but these are not the ancient slavery. This is a proven and honourable system.

We care for those who have chosen to take this path. They have honour and will pay their dept.

Once paid they will leave servitude and become honoured citizens once again.

How is this a bad thing? How dare you of the Federation judge our ways.

Who without sin cast the first stone.

Do you not have poor, unfed and unwanted populations? You who allow your own to live below a decent wage or living dare say things against us.

Our street and cities are clean, We have no beggars, We have no poor.

Can you who live in the Federations say as such?

Now leave this be and join us in the fight against true slavery and its inherent evils

 

[Goose4291]

I wonder how many people whom are complaining about indentured servitude helped the Quarian negotiate her contract on Illium in Mass Effect 2.