Players losing it all and quitting - sure, their fault but not good for the game.

[Ian Skippy]

Why is thinking about smarter options regarding "informed risk" catering to every whim or whine?
The point is that we need a certain "fanbase" to have an better ED so we need to find ways to keep it without making ED the nanny universe.

Or we are all tough guys in an boring universe because Frontier cancelled the project due lack of users.

This goes for real life as well: I think the world would be a very different place today if half the world's population would, at random, be hired to shadow the other half 24/7 and scream at random intervals:"ARE YOU SURE WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS WISE?". But we don't, and as a result people do crap all the time, with many people dying as a result. No insurance there, btw. Is the world too difficult for us? Will our userbase at some point become too small to sustain the human race? Probably. But I prefer it this way.

As someone said:"I’m not saying let’s go kill all the stupid people… I’m just saying let’s remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out. "

 

[slipfeed]

Hi folks,

Over and over again we see players in the facebook group and here coming on to say that for whatever reason they we operating without the rebuy funds, something happened and whammo... back to square one. Most seem to quit thereafter.

Now it's very easy to take the lofy moral ground and say that it's their fault for taking the risk they did. But the long and short of it is, it's not good for the game. This game is designed for humans and we have to consider how they are, not how they should be.

You could just ignore this issue and be high minded about it, but I believe the game will suffer.

Amazingly, I have even seen posts where people claim not to have known they could lose everything, although I find that hard to comprehend. People can be caught out too... for example a new module is bought and the calculations fail to take the increase in rebuy cost into account and the player is shy of the rebuy cost without realising it.

Personally, I never fly without the rebuy cost. I don't even risk my trading capital (mostly, have risked it a few times). You just need one-glitch when docking... a bump in the slit... whatever... and it's all over.

Are there plans to do anything about it? I'm not suggesting we dumb the game down, but perhaps there are simple things that could be done without removing the risk management aspect of things.

For example, you could have a system of accounts and you could move credits between them... for example, to put your rebuy cost aside.

Or, a simple message when your funds would drop below the rebuy cost after a transaction.

Or, your insurance excess is zero but you pay a premium. Or let the player decide the risk by having a premium that is related to the insurance excess.

Thoughts?

They aren't quitting because they lost everything, they are quitting because they don't want to build it back up.

The process itself was not fun for them, and there is nothing to do in this game but that process.

It's a huge sand box, that asks you to partake in the activity of playing jump rope to get a bigger shovel / bucket. To get a bigger shovel / bucket.

But when you actually take a moment to look at the box, you realize there is no sand.


These players where focused on getting their shovels and buckets, but when they lost what they had and went back to square one, they had the opportunity to focus on the box.

The empty box.

And asked in some way... "What will I do with my bucket anyway?"


If the process was engaging, and the purpose for said process tantalizing, there would be a lot fewer people with trouble starting over.

But, at that point, you're talking about playing a different game.

 

[Rivka]

I hate to phrase it like this, because it sounds harsh, but I don't see people quitting over a ship loss to be that big a deal overall. I mean, sure, if this were a subscription MMO, then yeah, losing active players would be a big deal, but it's not. It's not like Frontier is handing out refunds if people say "I'm not gonna play no more!". Frontier still gets that sale regardless of you playing one hour, or 100.

 

[Ydiss]

A warning wouldn't change a thing. It's not new players quitting because they lose their hauler and have to restart, due to not being aware of the rebuy mechanic. It's players who knew about it, earned a few million, took a risk, lost out, got upset, posted about it, then quit.

A warning would serve no purpose. New players will die long before they get enough cash to induce a rage quit.

 

[Zelos1983]

It's mainly an issue of the online mode. If offline were available, like they intended you could just load your last save and be good with it.

So yes, it's "their fault" for not considering how to protect their assets in an MMO, but it could all have been avoided.

 

[Microblitz]

I have played games where there no or little risk to my actions or choices. They don't last long. I have a huge library of games dating back to the 1970's that didn't present a challenge. Those games i still play are those which made my adrenalin rise and my hands shake and my forehead start to break out in sweat because I realised that I was going to lose something over it. This is real world angst over a virtual world scenario.

Then the question becomes is how I handled that angst?

I may have lost my temper. I have in the past lobbed the odd joystick out of the nearest window. On one occasion a 386-16 followed it (shame I forgot to open the window first!). All of those actions were me being annoyed at myself because I failed. Not the machine not the game but me! I suspect that the people that rage quit are feeling the same emotions as I did but are incapable of blaming themselves for the issue, preferring instead to blame everything else. the fact is, that if it is not too difficult for other players then it must be within your range of abilities too.

The old "I'm a casual player" excuse doesn't wash either. Your enjoyment of the game runs at a slower pace therefore you will enjoy the game longer, of course, unless your objective if to finish the entertainment you paid for in the shortest possible time, in which case once you become bored with it you will leave the community anyway...

It's kind of like paying for the film watching the adverts reading a synopsis and leaving before the feature starts.

 

[BlackReign]

They aren't quitting because they lost everything, they are quitting because they don't want to build it back up.

The process itself was not fun for them, and there is nothing to do in this game but that process.

It's a huge sand box, that asks you to partake in the activity of playing jump rope to get a bigger shovel / bucket. To get a bigger shovel / bucket.

But when you actually take a moment to look at the box, you realize there is no sand.


These players where focused on getting their shovels and buckets, but when they lost what they had and went back to square one, they had the opportunity to focus on the box.

The empty box.

And asked in some way... "What will I do with my bucket anyway?"


If the process was engaging, and the purpose for said process tantalizing, there would be a lot fewer people with trouble starting over.

But, at that point, you're talking about playing a different game.

Yeah, the "instant gratification horde" is alive and well. ED is not that, nor should it be. If the game is anywhere near the way you describe it, losing ships has nothing to do with your issue. but again, if you work so hard "grinding" but chose to not insure your ships, that's a real head-scratcher. They deserve to lose their ships, because apparently, they didn't value the effort and work it took to get it in the first place.

Go play checkers, it's very engaging and you get instant gratification on nearly every move.

 

[Zakovich]

Even with funds to rebuy the amount of ressources you loose is so big that there is frustrations, yes the game is fine like that but my beef is with some bugs that will make you loose big.

Example was yesterday for me, the first time I get a really big hit, it came when a player interdicted me and I was about to boost my shields and runaway, I had all my defenses up but because the target seemed to have 0 shields I made the concious decision to stand my ground and fight him, little did I know it was a display bug and suddenly the vulnerable asp changed into a 100% shielded one ... when I realised what happened I tried to flee, used my shield cell bank but it was too late, I put all power to my engine and started boosting but the other commander had my thrusters targeted and just disabled me. I cant jum or do anything and I'm stuck somewhere 10Ls from a Station with 60 Rare good in my cargo.

The decision I took stemmed from false information I received and that was a big hit.

I'm not going top quit because I still have the funds to rebuy my upgraded ASP and keep grinding but .... just saying....

 

[Mikey2305]

Have not read all 17 pages so apologies if this has been said many times before. But my take is this;

For a beginner it aint a big deal. Everyone is going to die a few times while working out what are supposed to be doing. I know i did and went back to sidey plus 1000cr several times. Then there is the loan facility which should rescue people that are building up in the game. By the time it becomes important you should be very well marinaded in game lore and key dynamics. I dont think there would be anyone playing this game after a week who do not know that setting aside money for insurance is very, very important and that not doing so can have serious consequences

People can ignore this and they will mostly get away with it. Simple greed and that shiny new ship and module will get the better of basic common sense. I know i did. And very occasionally it will come back to bite you. One of the most exciting times in the game for me was gamma wipe and working through again in a sidey with nowt but my experience and learned skills. And if i mess up again, i will get the same pleaure from doing it again...

 

[Mormegil]

here we go again! you gotta love these threads.

it's quite possible to get all the way to the ASP without having a rebuy cost above the 200k CR loan amount, so that when you do crash your ASP with a 300k CR rebuy cost, you haven't quite "figured out" that the loan amount is fixed, and that you can simply fall off a huge financial cliff. and if that happens in an ASP, you could be talking a 10m CR cliff and back to Sidewinder town. it's quite aggressive. it's not that hard to do. it's not happened to me, i'm still on a type 6, and even fully kitted out, the rebuy cost is comfortably covered by the loan. i'm glad i've read these horror threads though, because while i knew the loan was fixed at 200k CR, it hadn't fully sunk in. i could have easily forgotten. and i've even read the manual, including the bit on insurance.

it's just a case of in-game learning mechanics. people don't read manual these days, they just don't. that stopped years ago. a simple warning when you take off without the rebuy cost covered, explaining that you could be bankrupted back to Sidewinder, doesn't seem like a bad idea. you can have the option to "not show me this message again" etc.

i don't want to see the game become less dangerous though. most people don't want this.

 

[BlackReign]

It's mainly an issue of the online mode. If offline were available, like they intended you could just load your last save and be good with it.

So yes, it's "their fault" for not considering how to protect their assets in an MMO, but it could all have been avoided.

Offline/Online has nothing to do with this. Insurance doesn't require a specific mode for you to be able to leverage it, even if we had an offline mode, gamers would still take chances. Nice try at your attempt to inject the tired old sob story of Offline mode. Doesn't apply here at all.

 

[CMDR Bansidhe]

here we go again! you gotta love these threads.

it's quite possible to get all the way to the ASP without having a rebuy cost above the 200k CR loan amount, so that when you do crash your ASP with a 300k CR rebuy cost, you haven't quite "figured out" that the loan amount is fixed, and that you can simply fall off a huge financial cliff. and if that happens in an ASP, you could be talking a 10m CR cliff and back to Sidewinder town. it's quite aggressive. it's not that hard to do. it's not happened to me, i'm still on a type 6, and even fully kitted out, the rebuy cost is comfortably covered by the loan. i'm glad i've read these horror threads though, because while i knew the loan was fixed at 200k CR, it hadn't fully sunk in. i could have easily forgotten. and i've even read the manual, including the bit on insurance.

it's just a case of in-game learning mechanics. people don't read manual these days, they just don't. that stopped years ago. a simple warning when you take off without the rebuy cost covered, explaining that you could be bankrupted back to Sidewinder, doesn't seem like a bad idea. you can have the option to "not show me this message again" etc.

i don't want to see the game become less dangerous though. most people don't want this.

Exactly. People used to read the manuals but don't any more. Won't the same happen with on-screen messages? "Oh I saw something flash up but didn't read it"

What next?

"Please Devs I dismissed a warning message and fell foul, can you please make the warnings stay on screen permanently please."

If you make it a toggle switch to display warnings or not you will still get people turning them off and then complaining that they were able to turn them off. Where does it end once we start? How much developer time should we waste on this principle?

The information already exists in game, it can be accessed by pressing (default) 4, it's player choice not to read it.

 

[thewzdoc]

For example, you could have a system of accounts and you could move credits between them... for example, to put your rebuy cost aside.

Or, a simple message when your funds would drop below the rebuy cost after a transaction.

Or, your insurance excess is zero but you pay a premium. Or let the player decide the risk by having a premium that is related to the insurance excess.

Thoughts?

Folks that fly now without keeping money aside for insurance will still do so no matter what. They will not "move money into a savings account" if they aren't willing to simly save it now. They will ignore a warning if they aren't willing to simply look to the right and see what the rebuy cost is.

The premium insurance is interesting but I fear that these types of folks will not buy into it either.

I like that you are thinking this through and are concerned for the game over all, I am too, but these folks that don't manage their assets are still going to have the same issues unless FD allows users to roll back to their last save game (the horror)...

 

[Ghostickles]

..... put something in the tutorials..............

 

[BlackReign]

here we go again! you gotta love these threads.

it's quite possible to get all the way to the ASP without having a rebuy cost above the 200k CR loan amount, so that when you do crash your ASP with a 300k CR rebuy cost, you haven't quite "figured out" that the loan amount is fixed, and that you can simply fall off a huge financial cliff. and if that happens in an ASP, you could be talking a 10m CR cliff and back to Sidewinder town. it's quite aggressive. it's not that hard to do. it's not happened to me, i'm still on a type 6, and even fully kitted out, the rebuy cost is comfortably covered by the loan. i'm glad i've read these horror threads though, because while i knew the loan was fixed at 200k CR, it hadn't fully sunk in. i could have easily forgotten. and i've even read the manual, including the bit on insurance.

it's just a case of in-game learning mechanics. people don't read manual these days, they just don't. that stopped years ago. a simple warning when you take off without the rebuy cost covered, explaining that you could be bankrupted back to Sidewinder, doesn't seem like a bad idea. you can have the option to "not show me this message again" etc.

i don't want to see the game become less dangerous though. most people don't want this.

The Rebuy cost is always indicated in the game. No one should ever depend on loans. If you do, well, again, you find out the hard way.

 

[CMDR Bansidhe]

Are there any goals in DayZ that require hundreds of hours to achieve without dieing? No? Then why do you think this example can be applied here at all?

There are none in ED either, save the ones we make ourselves. As such the two are very similar.

Checking you have sufficient credits to cover your rebuy doesn't take "hundreds of hours without dieing" either. What point are you trying to make here?

 

[AV2012]

Good post. FD are interested in users because of the money, that's the point of ED from their point of view. Losing users is not ever a good thing.

If Elite Dangerous achieves a reputation as a difficult game that is challenging and hard to master, a game that doesn't spoon feed you and hold your hand, a game that's unforgiving and difficult, then it will benefit from that in the long term. It will attract people looking for the antidote to the banal simplicity of the current AAA game trends. You can't please everyone all of the time and I don't believe that adding training wheels to Elite Dangerous is the answer. I would personally favour a more brutal and challenging experience from the game.

 

[Mormegil]

If you make it a toggle switch to display warnings or not you will still get people turning them off and then complaining that they were able to turn them off. Where does it end once we start? How much developer time should we waste on this principle?

The information already exists in game, it can be accessed by pressing (default) 4, it's player choice not to read it.

Agreed. A line need to be drawn somewhere. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if the message appears the first time you don't have rebuy funds AND the rebuy cost exceeds the loan limit + what you have. That's all.

I'd argue you're not really learning the mechanic because for the first dozens and dozens of house of gameplay you're always covered by the loan amount. You could be lulled into a false sense of security and forget in the heat of gameplay. I haven't done it. But people are doing it. I can't be that hard to do. We can't just assume all these people are stupid.

 

[Darian]

I know you didn't. With perma-death I mean - back to the very start, credits and ships ( with added founder and backer and beta stuff ofc ).

Oh yess.. how many players do you think will trade in an flimsy trader vessel as soon every PK with four rocket packs can beam them with insta death back into an sidewinder and here are 1000 Cr thankyouverymuch?
I was killed two time alone so far by buggy game, I would have been sooo extatic to start qall over because the game is buggy and i like died without reason.

If i poke my nose into an anarchy systhems pirate king base and life becomes short bright and hot ok.
My fault.
But here you talk every casual gamer killed by bug ending in an sidewinder....

 

[CMDR Bansidhe]

Agreed. A line need to be drawn somewhere. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea if the message appears the first time you don't have rebuy funds AND the rebuy cost exceeds the loan limit + what you have. That's all.

I'd argue you're not really learning the mechanic because for the first dozens and dozens of house of gameplay you're always covered by the loan amount. You could be lulled into a false sense of security and forget in the heat of gameplay. I haven't done it. But people are doing it. I can't be that hard to do. We can't just assume all these people are stupid.

I'm sorry but I do.