Rebalance dumbfire missiles please

[Cathalo]

Point defence does not work against dumbfire

Working as intended, if the opposing pilot gets right on your ass then you are screwed, the point defence will not have time to react if said pilot has 3 or more batteries. Likewise, if he is able to fire on you from range on the side of your ship which does not feature the point defence then you will also be screwed.

This is simply a case of pilots who equip small ships for elephant hunting and the elephants are equipping their ships to hunt elephants. You cannot win against every encounter, you must pick and choose.

 

[Sugarat]

So when the dumbfires get nerfed, what next? Do ED keep moving to the next highest damage weapon because that's now OP? Game will become sterile if things get nerfed in response to videos like that.

 

[Mike Evans]

So point defence does work against dumbfire missiles now and we're experimenting with the way it fires to improve it's ability to take down missiles. However this won't stop an alpha strike from close range but is still a good thing to fix none the less. In addition to ensure that point defence isn't the de-facto module to fit on all utility mounts we're working on changes that might make the heat sink more useful and new modules that you might want on them instead

I don't think missiles actually need any changes themselves. Instead I proposed and was approved to increase the shields resistance to explosive damage dramatically. Currently kinetic and explosive weapons have the same resistance values. With this change it would take many alpha strikes to drop the shield. The hull however is unaffected by the change and can still be destroyed quickly. What I like about this solution however is that for one it makes the initial volley very inefficient and should provide the target some time to do something about it before it's too late. Secondly it makes more sense to me that a missile must penetrate the hull and then explode to do damage in space where as detonating against a shield results in a flash with not a lot of bang because space is a vacuum.

These aren't perfect solutions by any means but they're a step in the right direction.

 

[Darian]

My concern is that this allows mass slaughter of freighters.
So my question is, with Elite all about PvP why do we have freighters? Moving targets?

Elite Dangerous can be either an game that is all about vipers shooting at each other or an complete " space sim" or what ever you want to call it.

And my other point is, if an game mechanic is so vulnerable as to allow insta kill against pretty much everything beside the most biggest mofa of an ship it is inviting the goon squats and b/tards to have a little bit of fun at weekend.

Now Elite has solo and group but last i checked the idea was to have "open" and an "rich player generated content and storyline"

Right now the way i see it it has a lot of PvP and ... oh yes trading to pay the pvp done in solo.

That looks for me more like the next installment will be "Elite Arena, now without troublesome trading and freighters"

So where is the beefing up of freighters so an PK actual risks something popping them left right and center?

The idea of an space sim should for my opinion not be that everything that is not an specialist fighter insta dies leaving dock.

Where is the point?

(I mean beside playing pvp and trading in solo to pay the pvp)

So they nerf dumbfire spam a little and it takes a minute more to make an ship go boom.

That will not make Elite Dangerous a better game, only a game where an pvp lasts a little longer between two specialised warships.

For me Elite was about an commander who is a mixture of fighter/trader/smuggler and a little bit of pirate thrown in.

Right now Elite is about an fighter pilot, full stop.

We could aswell reduce the map to five solar systhems and save a lot of money on servers so Frontier has more money to make more fighter ships and weapons for them.

Star Citizen is an game build around PvP and there they (at least if they are not talking rubbish, maybe they do) they are putting a lot of thought into balancing it so that not every gimp can just go around and blow up all ships for the LULZ. (Even if he is that godlike creature that spend 1000's of hours trigger time and therefore has the right to blow up everyone else and that is the all is of the game)

Yeah PvP is fun but people get a grip or get out into some arena game and stop demanding that the game Elite Dangerous is turned into "Elite Arena, all who are not 24/7 PvP go play elswhere"

<sarcasm> If that makes me an Carebear so be it, but i always thought there should be like 99% PvP and 1% something else like landing and reloading i guess </sarcasm>

Yeah i will play SC too, it is build around PvP , but PvP with an story, and reasons, and tactics that are more than " how do i blow up x quicker" questions like "Why should i blow up x and not y" should count too.

Elite has not much else to offer right now yes, but I question if there will be any other players but PvP only crackshots left until the DLC add ons come out.

Maybe release was really way to early I guess.

 

[Derath]

So point defence does work against dumbfire missiles now and we're experimenting with the way it fires to improve it's ability to take down missiles. However this won't stop an alpha strike from close range but is still a good thing to fix none the less. In addition to ensure that point defence isn't the de-facto module to fit on all utility mounts we're working on changes that might make the heat sink more useful and new modules that you might want on them instead

I don't think missiles actually need any changes themselves. Instead I proposed and was approved to increase the shields resistance to explosive damage dramatically. Currently kinetic and explosive weapons have the same resistance values. With this change it would take many alpha strikes to drop the shield. The hull however is unaffected by the change and can still be destroyed quickly. What I like about this solution however is that for one it makes the initial volley very inefficient and should provide the target some time to do something about it before it's too late. Secondly it makes more sense to me that a missile must penetrate the hull and then explode to do damage in space where as detonating against a shield results in a flash with not a lot of bang because space is a vacuum.

These aren't perfect solutions by any means but they're a step in the right direction.

The black orcs of WHO would say, good plan... Best plan!

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

So point defence does work against dumbfire missiles now and we're experimenting with the way it fires to improve it's ability to take down missiles. However this won't stop an alpha strike from close range but is still a good thing to fix none the less. In addition to ensure that point defence isn't the de-facto module to fit on all utility mounts we're working on changes that might make the heat sink more useful and new modules that you might want on them instead

I don't think missiles actually need any changes themselves. Instead I proposed and was approved to increase the shields resistance to explosive damage dramatically. Currently kinetic and explosive weapons have the same resistance values. With this change it would take many alpha strikes to drop the shield. The hull however is unaffected by the change and can still be destroyed quickly. What I like about this solution however is that for one it makes the initial volley very inefficient and should provide the target some time to do something about it before it's too late. Secondly it makes more sense to me that a missile must penetrate the hull and then explode to do damage in space where as detonating against a shield results in a flash with not a lot of bang because space is a vacuum.

These aren't perfect solutions by any means but they're a step in the right direction.

Yes a change to shield penetration is probably what they are missing, as I said earlier I just don't feel there should be insta-gib weapons, should be different tools in the box.

 

[tagos]

I think to many people are focused of trying to balance everything here. Whats the point.

You may as well just restrict everyone to a single ship, same weapon loadouts, samw jump range, same bountys, same profit per tonne, etc

There should be these differences it keeps every thing interesting.

On the forums lately Ive read a lot about the python being over powered, and now it turns out that dumb fires are a fairly effective weapon against them people want it changed?

Its madness to keep chasing the dials keep it stable and people will learn the best tactics for a given situation otherwise the devs will spend all their time tinkering to please the community and never develop new content.

Quite. Less of the 'Nerf It From Orbit' more of the actually looking at the resources the game has and the tactics they make possible. Trying to balance everything, particularly around PvP is just one endless tale of The Woman Who Swallowed A Fly.

 

[Bortas]

I don't think missiles actually need any changes themselves. Instead I proposed and was approved to increase the shields resistance to explosive damage dramatically. Currently kinetic and explosive weapons have the same resistance values. With this change it would take many alpha strikes to drop the shield. The hull however is unaffected by the change and can still be destroyed quickly. What I like about this solution however is that for one it makes the initial volley very inefficient and should provide the target some time to do something about it before it's too late. Secondly it makes more sense to me that a missile must penetrate the hull and then explode to do damage in space where as detonating against a shield results in a flash with not a lot of bang because space is a vacuum.

These aren't perfect solutions by any means but they're a step in the right direction.

Thanks for the info... sounds like a sensible solution to the issue. Looking forward for it to be implemented.

 

[tagos]

You act like those credits are insignificant. Most PvPers are not trader, we don't trade and we certainly don't spend much time on PvE stuff. We earn credits the slow way, so 40k credits is a huge boon for most of us since we make virtually nothing in PvP because PvP doesn't pay.

Secondly, we are PvPers. We have a lot of experience flying our ships, some of us have been flying the same ship ever since we started the game be it a Eagle, Viper or Cobra. We have logged an insane amount of trigger time in these ships and know how to fly them as well as outfit them to our advantage. It is absolutely not absurd for us to take advantage of stupid traders who made most of their money playing solo mode and then decided to buy a Python and try PvP in open. Those pilots have NO trigger time in their ships and if they had even a slight clue they would outfit them with point defence or turrets to nullify the effects of missiles. Not to mention, if Python CMDR's would pay attention to heat signature they could equip a formidable ship while being able to run silent and also put 4 pips to shields when in combat which combined with shield cell reboost would make them invincible to DF missles. But, most Python owners (aside from myself) are extremely dumb and have very little experience in PvP. So, you should expect to be blown up by smaller ships.

Totally agree. We can nerf/rebalance/nerf/rebalance incessantly but being a skilled experienced combat pilot will trump most everything.

 

[Jay8ch]

1v1, a sufficiently skilled small ship pilot should be able to take a large ship that is poorly flown (e.g. holding position in an Anaconda's blind spot), but it should be a tough ask and an achievement worthy of note, otherwise it makes larger ships completely redundant. As it stands they have an i-win button, provided they are prepared to potentially sacrifice their ship, and given the cost of death is so trivial in a disposable ship like the Eagle, it is pretty much standard MO.

Agreed that the penalty for "dying" in a small, cheap ship is too low. I'd envisage more that a group of well flown Missile Eagles stood some chance but that most of them would die, rather like swarming a battleship with motor torpedo boats.

 

[Matnik]

When you're pulling in 1.5m credits an hour from trading, the 20k reload might be peanuts to you, but when you're pulling in 100-120k bounties before a full reload at a nav beacon (less than that if you need to use any weapons to defend against anything else) then using missiles is a VERY expensive way to do business.

My viper is kitted out with 2 multicannons and 2 missile bays and I've stopped going after anyone less than 15k because it's just not profitable. Equally, against traders, most of the time they drop less value in cargo (8t of cargo is NOT a lot) than the cost of destroying them if they don't drop it.

And, finally, if you don't want to get owned in PvP, take action. Learn the game. Upgrade your scrap wagon. Go Solo. Stop asking for combat nerfs because you don't like combat, because that's not fair.

 

[Vagabond]

Nerfing has become way overpowered. It is totally unbalanced and needs nerfing. Nerfing must be nerfed. Nerf nerfing!

 

[Hexcaliber]

An entire thread because of someone's knee jerk reaction to a staged video, really? This entire thread stinks of care bears who imagine spending millions of credits on a ship should make them immune.

Any Cmdr flying a larger ship, jumped by a smaller ship because he was not paying attention to his radar, gets what he deserved. In reality, the python pilot would have reacted the instant he saw another Cmdr appear on his radar and would have turned to bring weapons to bear, and a single pac would have spoiled the viper’s day.

However, larger ships should never reach a state where they become immune to the efforts of pilots in smaller ships. Do that, and you produce a game that is impossible for new players or players that do not have the time to haul making millions of credits an hour to fund their new toys, and player ability counts for nought.

If you want immunity from other players, stop playing in open.

 

[hanks01]

Agreed that the penalty for "dying" in a small, cheap ship is too low. I'd envisage more that a group of well flown Missile Eagles stood some chance but that most of them would die, rather like swarming a battleship with motor torpedo boats.

Except the rebuy cost on a small ship isn't trivial when you're just starting out and have little money. The rebuy on my fully kitted Viper is about 130k, until I got more money behind me recently that was a lot of credits when I did die (and being focussed mostly on combat the potential for that was fairly high.)

 

[xslam]

I rarely use dumbfires. because with them the death is fast, and no way to shot the engines.

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

So point defence does work against dumbfire missiles now and we're experimenting with the way it fires to improve it's ability to take down missiles. However this won't stop an alpha strike from close range but is still a good thing to fix none the less. In addition to ensure that point defence isn't the de-facto module to fit on all utility mounts we're working on changes that might make the heat sink more useful and new modules that you might want on them instead

I don't think missiles actually need any changes themselves. Instead I proposed and was approved to increase the shields resistance to explosive damage dramatically. Currently kinetic and explosive weapons have the same resistance values. With this change it would take many alpha strikes to drop the shield. The hull however is unaffected by the change and can still be destroyed quickly. What I like about this solution however is that for one it makes the initial volley very inefficient and should provide the target some time to do something about it before it's too late. Secondly it makes more sense to me that a missile must penetrate the hull and then explode to do damage in space where as detonating against a shield results in a flash with not a lot of bang because space is a vacuum.

These aren't perfect solutions by any means but they're a step in the right direction.

Can we get than some love for plasmas? Their shield damage seems pathetic. A knife fighter with missiles wants to get as close as it gets, which would be the optimal distance for plasmas too. Which right now seem to be the king of subsystem killers, but rather unimpressive against shields. Worse than pulse lasers even iirc.

 

[Bortas]

However, larger ships should never reach a state where they become immune to the efforts of pilots in smaller ships. Do that, and you produce a game that is impossible for new players or players that do not have the time to haul making millions of credits an hour to fund their new toys, and player ability counts for nought.

No new player with a small ship is forced to fight Pythons or Anacondas... they can always easily run away, and that's exactly as it should be... strong enough to beat everything faster... fast enough to escape from anything stronger.

If you want immunity from other players, stop playing in open.

Nobody wants immunity... but instakill weapons, enabling cheap little ships to kill big expensive ships without even giving them an opportunity to react are just wrong.

 

[xslam]

Nobody wants immunity... but instakill weapons, enabling cheap little ships to kill big expensive ships without even giving them an opportunity to react are just wrong.

Look at real world, look at the bomb-cars from Irak, they cheap, and they more than capable to burn far more expensive tank or IFV.

So, i an Python owner, and i agreed with nerf, look back at FFE and you see - Python FREIGHTER.
It should be an armoured freighter, not a combat ship. And state when it could be defeated with ease is right.

 

[Hexcaliber]

No new player with a small ship is forced to fight Pythons or Anacondas... they can always easily run away, and that's exactly as it should be... strong enough to beat everything faster... fast enough to escape from anything stronger.



Nobody wants immunity... but instakill weapons, enabling cheap little ships to kill big expensive ships without even giving them an opportunity to react are just wrong.

Both the eagle and sidewinder have slower top speeds than a python, and with fa off it can easily track them, as a result, even with better thrusters fitted still cannot outrun it, while their boost is faster, smaller ship power distributors do not allow the user to spam boost, unlike the larger versions available to a python, which does not have to stay in range very long at all to wipe them out.

In short that video was nonsenses, and only an idiot, or someone with little or no pvp nouce is going to be caught out. Grab a friend and see what three medium rails, a single large torp, 3 large canons, a single large particle accelerator, 3 large particle cannons or 3 large missiles do to a viper in range.

 

[StephenB]

I guess it's gives people a reason to be careful regardless of what ship the enemy is flying.

Don't just assume because it's a transporter that it won't have a salvo of missiles waiting for your precious, expensive ship.