Or an Imperial strategy to convince the Federation that the vessel is flawed, when it really isn't...
"Oh yes, there is this 1 meter wide exhaust port that you could drop a torpedo down to defeat our Stellar Destroyer...honest!"
Design flaw in Imperial Cruisers
- Thread starter torm1358
- Start date
Or an Imperial strategy to convince the Federation that the vessel is flawed, when it really isn't...
"Oh yes, there is this 1 meter wide exhaust port that you could drop a torpedo down to defeat our Stellar Destroyer...honest!"
lol... funny discussion... i think we both had a misunderstanding:
Indeed, i admit have not read your clarification as i responded to your simple 'hardy', because i saw two posts from you and the last one was your response to me. That that was my fault. However this doesnt make your posted 'hardy' a correct response as well, since you posted it right after your clarification.
Lets try to return to the topic maybe?
What i wanted to say in my original post was that there is no reason to assume that the concept of generated gravity (the spacetime manipulation version of course) is more or less 'realistic' than the concept of hyperjumps when it comes to an implementation in elite dangerous. There is no plausible argument that the one should be there, but the other not. Its purely a design question.
I understand that in the old elite games generated gravity was not present, and that some people may like to see a succession of this fact to the new elite. I am also a fan of doing things realistic as possible, but this time I look in the future to incoming expansions. As soon as you will be able to walk around in stations, there will be really difficult questions about how realistic it will be to live in these things - like this topic here.
Just for the same reason as you mentioned, a necessity for actors to live and work normal, it will probably be necessary for the designers to avoid the use of too many rotating structures. So my hint for the developers is: think twice when excluding generated gravity entirely from the start.
The size/speed of the structure could also be a problem. A small structure will have to spin faster to produce 1g and if it's too small there'll be a difference in gravity between your head and your feet, causing all the blood to rush to your feet and putting strain on your heart.
Or if the structure is too big it will have to rotate so slowly that running spin-ward will make you weigh more! Or even better, running against the spin will make you weigh less
Anything moving around it at an appreciably grater rate, like a lift, will experience +/- gravity.
Or if the structure is too big it will have to rotate so slowly that running spin-ward will make you weigh more! Or even better, running against the spin will make you weigh less
Anything moving around it at an appreciably grater rate, like a lift, will experience +/- gravity.
No, because ability to jump to other systems is pretty much necessary for any *PLOT* involving traveling around many systems.
Artificial gravity, OTOH is useful because any scene featuring people floating around weightless will be damn hard to shoot here on Earth.
Games don't use live actors.
Nowadays they often do...
Or if the structure is too big it will have to rotate so slowly that running spin-ward will make you weigh more! Or even better, running against the spin will make you weigh less
Interesting, that never occurred to me before; but it's a very obvious point now you mention it!
The size/speed of the structure could also be a problem. A small structure will have to spin faster to produce 1g and if it's too small there'll be a difference in gravity between your head and your feet, causing all the blood to rush to your feet and putting strain on your heart.
Or if the structure is too big it will have to rotate so slowly that running spin-ward will make you weigh more! Or even better, running against the spin will make you weigh less
Anything moving around it at an appreciably grater rate, like a lift, will experience +/- gravity.
Standalone from (excellent) Freefall comic:
[link]Now I look at the numbers, it's not actually true that bigger rings have lower speed around the outside to generate a given gravity. They rotate slower in degrees/second, but the actual velocity around the circumference grows.
For the speed around the outside to be walking speed (1.67m/s) and the desired gravity simulation to be 1G, the radius of the ring is only 0.28m (ie far too small for a person to fit in).
For the speed around the outside to be olympic sprinting speed (10m/s) and the desired gravity to be 1G, the radius of the ring is 10.2m.
As you build bigger and bigger rings the speed around the edge actually increases, so the problem falls away. So a 1 mile diameter ring spinning to simulate 1G has a velocity around the edge of 88.5m/s. So an olympic sprinter running against the spin will experience slightly less than 0.8G, or running with the spin will experience slightly over 1.2G.
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Jenner
I wish I was English like my hero Tj.
Coming at the gravity issue from a fiction perspective, you can see some nice advantages to gravity on spaceships being selective instead of ubiquitous. It can be a manifestation of the Empire's image-conscious imperative. It can be a luxury feature and an example of the human galaxy's distinctive flavours.
Which also means that it can have its own consequences and risks. E.g. it might have to be powered down (literally the spin stopped) before practical engagements. Anything which introduces something to be weighed (no pun intended) and balanced gives plot, narrative and character (through choices) something to play with.
Which also means that it can have its own consequences and risks. E.g. it might have to be powered down (literally the spin stopped) before practical engagements. Anything which introduces something to be weighed (no pun intended) and balanced gives plot, narrative and character (through choices) something to play with.
Oh yeah, good point thanks. I wanted to work out the maths but was unable.
I found this graph instead:
But I didn't understand it as it seems to be saying the required speed would need to increase as the size grew. To me that was counter-intuitive.
But as you say;
Is this because the path you are taking is closer to a straight line, and as the path gets less curved, the speed must increase to maintain a given centripetal force?
I have wondered for years! how big the difference must be for a given size and speed (trying to imagine life on a space stations). Thanks for providing some concrete figures. I actually think +/- 0.2g is quite big, but not prohibitive.
So if we spun the ring slower to only produce a low gravity environment, say 0.5g for comfort and to allow water to settle etc, would travelling at speed (running or transport shuttle) be a bigger problem?
Or if the structure is too big it will have to rotate so slowly that running spin-ward will make you weigh more! Or even better, running against the spin will make you weigh less
Think of all the new sporting possibilities.. I might actually be able to win a game of snooker
And think of all the fun we could have watching newly created episodes of Takeshi's castle.
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You can think of it this way - imagine going at same velocity around circles of various sizes.
The larger the circle the milder the curve, so at the same velocity you need less force to keep you on track.
The thing is that you need the force acting on unit mass to be constant and corresponding to 1G of acceleration, so a bigger circle needs to spin faster to offset its milder curvature.
Edit:
Scratch that - day to day life analogy:
You're on a bus. The bus is moving at moderate speed but takes a really tight curve. You get thrown at the wall.
Now, at the same speed the bus takes a mild curve. You don't get thrown at the wall, the force is much weaker despite the bus going at the same speed.
You strap a JATO rocket to the bus and make it take the same mild curve, but at insane speed. Meet the wall again.
No.
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Yeah it's got loads of implications really. In practice you couldn't just stop the ring without clearing up all the soup bowls from the galley first, or else get very messy. And the all Empire's delegates would have to down their champaign quickly if a battle broke out. Thus, forcing an Empire ship/station to stop the ring during an important diplomacy could make those negotiations break down. Another way for us to shape the evolving galaxy.
I can also see some ways it may create a bigger divide between the Empire and other space-faring factions. Kind of like sea-faring folk calling others 'Land Lubbers', except we can call the Empire people 'Grav Lovers' lol. This is most insulting as everyone knows love is best done in zero gravity.
The formula is pretty simple;
a = V^2/r
Where:
a = acceleration (use 9.8m/s/s for 1G)
V = velocity (m/s)
r = radius
This calculator makes it even easier, or allows you to check your calculation; http://www.calctool.org/CALC/phys/newtonian/centrifugal
Yes, though I had to read that twice to work it out.
Remember that +/- 0.2g is only for an Olympic Sprinter running at 10m/s, and for a very large mile-diameter ring. For normal mortals walking around on a station that big the difference is only +/- 0.04g.
If the 1 mile diameter ring was being spun to generate roughly 0.5g for comfort and our Olympic sprinter ran against the spin, he would experience 0.35g. If he ran with the spin he would experience 0.67g.
Well, ok. I reluctantly understand that. Thanks for explaining. I'm not very good at maths if that wasn't obvious...
...though i do appreciate maths is probably better than my attempts to verbally describe something so pure (and poetic) as physical motion.
Soo, bearing in mind my poor maths skills and dodgy verbal prowess, feel free not to read my next question
By my calculations it will take someone travelling at 10m/s (i recommend a small shuttle/rail system) 4.15 minuets to travel halfway round a 1 mile diameter ring. Roughly 30 mins to walk it. This seems an acceptable time frame for people using the ring (but it does seem some form of fast (10m/s) travel is needed).
Now, 'If our Olympic sprinter ran against the spin, he would experience 0.35g. If he ran with the spin he would experience 0.67g'. This is a weight fluctuation of roughly +/- 30% when using modes of travel that approach 10m/s.
So my next question is: Do you think such a high percentage of weight fluctuation would be comfortable for people not used to the shifting 'tides' of space life (emissary's, diplomats, etc)?
As i understand it, motion sickness is caused by a difference between the information from your eyes and balance in your ears. So the shifting gravitational forces from the transport system a rotating ring like this would surly require, could make people who are prone to motion sickness (grav lovers) throw up allot.
Ofcourse, i may be over thinking things
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So my next question is: Do you think such a high percentage of weight fluctuation would be comfortable for people not used to the shifting 'tides' of space life (emissary's, diplomats, etc)?
As i understand it, motion sickness is caused by a difference between the information from your eyes and balance in your ears. So the shifting gravitational forces from the transport system a rotating ring like this would surly require, could make people who are prone to motion sickness (grav lovers) throw up allot.
Ofcourse, i may be over thinking things
It's not something I have any experience with, but the same basic problems have to be dealt with by real-world elevator designers in the tallest sky-scrapers and the sadists who design amusement park rides. I would guess that careful control of the rate of change of speed would alleviate most of the problems, maybe combined with seating for the passengers. It might also be desirable to have some of the routes for your transport system via lower radii tubes to increase the angular speed within the ring station without increasing the simulated gravity.
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Hmm, yes. It would probably be pretty similar to using a large elevator. And i can see managing the acceleration would help allot. So yes; careful acceleration, comfy seats and perhaps some sick bags for emergency's and i think it could work. Phew.
Yeah, for me, the easiest way to visualise this is by thinking of gears. If you've got two gears meshing, then they're always traveling at the same speed at the outer rim. However, smaller gears obviously spin much faster than bigger ones to keep up.