arguement: Python vs Viper equal skill python SHOULD win

[zaccheus44]

Multi-purpose should not automatically mean better in combat even when several categories higher.

Python and Anaconda should be threatened by a small fighting ship piloted by a good pilot.

This seems to be FD's stance, currently. I like this. I don't like your ideas. I don't like how you think they are somehow more ''right'', but that doesn't matter.

I am more right because it is a multiplayer game, not a 1 on 1 game. A cheap tiny ship should never be able to threaten a large heavily armed and armored ship, unless maybe it has very specialized very expensive weapons. A multiplayer game should include multiplayer game player, ie 12 on 3 etc.

Imagine this: two vipers interdiction a python, the python is loaded with platinum, he has loads more than the two vipers can conceivably carry. In your idea of balance he either gives them some cargo or die. In mine he crushes the two vipers, and move on with his vargo. Then he gets interdicted by a pirate gang, 8 vipers, he can't just dump 2 or three tons, 8 people can't feed b off of that, he has to dump it all, run or try to fight. He tries to fight, one of the vipers has sacrificed weapons for jamming gear and spends his time trying to counter the gimbal and turret weapons to protect his friends because if they get hit they are toast, two other vipers are maxed out on armor and shieldss, also no weapons just to try and draw his fire, the rest work on his shields then once down they pound on his hatch and drives. They take him down after an epic struggle, many wounded vipers, but get a huge pay day....that's how you balance, if only the python had some buddies in eagles to help him out, several million lost and a valuable lesson learned and a game with amazing emergent complex play not stuoid one on one duels

 

[Defacto]

So tell me: if no other ship is supposed to be better than a Viper in combat and on top of that the Viper costs absolutely nothing in maintenance while the bigger ships cost a humongous fortune for each scratch in the hull... where exactly is the incentive to go for a big ship? Oh right, there is none. So let's just all fly vipers. Maybe we can even get FD to completely remove every other ship from the game. Because that would apparently somehow in some magic way make the game better.

Personally I wanna see diversity. But currently the game balance is so incredibly lopsided favoring viper/cobra in the combat department, it's not funny anymore. Smaller ships lack the punch while larger ships don't bring enough advantages to warrant their ridiculous running costs. And yet this thread is full of people arguing that the larger ships shouldn't even bring any advantage at all. I wonder why that is. It couldn't possibly be selfish reasons because they fly a viper/cobra themselves, couldn't it? No, surely not.

Reality check: Wanting a Python to be slightly but noticeably better than a Viper in combat is absolutely not the same as wanting to "have 5000000 vipers beat on a python with no effect". Claiming other people argue for a position which they actually don't argue for at all: That's just grasping at straws in a debate when you have no reasonable argument left.

By the way, if you are wondering which ship I fly into combat personally: It's a sidewinder.

Are you saying that there are people who say that larger ships should have no advantage at all whatsoever? Where are these people?

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I am more right because it is a multiplayer game, not a 1 on 1 game. A cheap tiny ship should never be able to threaten a large heavily armed and armored ship, unless maybe it has very specialized very expensive weapons. A multiplayer game should include multiplayer game player, ie 12 on 3 etc.

Imagine this: two vipers interdiction a python, the python is loaded with platinum, he has loads more than the two vipers can conceivably carry. In your idea of balance he either gives them some cargo or die. In mine he crushes the two vipers, and move on with his vargo. Then he gets interdicted by a pirate gang, 8 vipers, he can't just dump 2 or three tons, 8 people can't feed b off of that, he has to dump it all, run or try to fight. He tries to fight, one of the vipers has sacrificed weapons for jamming gear and spends his time trying to counter the gimbal and turret weapons to protect his friends because if they get hit they are toast, two other vipers are maxed out on armor and shieldss, also no weapons just to try and draw his fire, the rest work on his shields then once down they pound on his hatch and drives. They take him down after an epic struggle, many wounded vipers, but get a huge pay day....that's how you balance, if only the python had some buddies in eagles to help him out, several million lost and a valuable lesson learned and a game with amazing emergent complex play not stuoid one on one duels

Uh yes they should.

I imagine your scenario. Python can easily run away. Vipers loose, Python wins.

 

[xondk]

It should take a VERY skilled viper pilot to fight up 3-4 weight classes and win, right now though any ship bigger than a viper is at a disadvantage in maneuverability, and if your not more maneuverable you cant bring weapons to bare.

in other words, extend range, and icnrease accuracy of turrets by ALOT, and reduce their damage, so that turrets cant be used effectively against a bigger ship, but are exceedingly good point-defence against small ships, because as it is right now turrets are useless, which means between 2 equally skilled pilots (or in some cases even if the python/conda pilot is slightly better) the viper or cobra will win be default because the bigger ship will never hit them

There s a vast difference between sitting with your ship and hoping your turrets will hit the enemy, if you aren't maneuvering correctly, and allowing the viper to end up on your blind side, you die, but yes given apple to apple comparing, then yes the python will smoke the viper just from a firepower perspective alone.

A problem I see in video's is that people seem to forget that these spaceship can use thrust in all directions not just forward, a skilled viper will use this to get into the right positions, and take the python out, a skilled python user will know their blind spot and know that the viper wants to get there, and as such handle their ship so that it is rarely presented and the turrets constantly can hit the other viper.

 

[HeavyGroovez]

It really doesnt take much more than a boost turn with FA Off to put a Viper (or any ship for that matter) in your gunsights if you are flying a Python regardless of how good the other pilot is.

As soon as you are head on you are back in control and any experienced Viper pilot will oscar mike the frakk out of there when he gets a face full and realises that you are not a noob.

Conversely if you try and furball like a tool then the other pilot will stick around to see if he can scalp himself a Python and post it on YouTube.

 

[CARLOS3]

Would like to see a video of a Python fighting an Anaconda and one with a Viper fighting an Anaconda. I bet the Python gets the job done faster.

Never make the mistake of fighting with a Phyton against Anaconda
(now, after the nerf) you get a rescue capsule after figth
I speak from Commander against Commander

 

[daylan]

This is exactly what I disagree with. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be this way in the game.

Have you actually seen 2 skilled pilots going at it? I am certain the viper will win. Most pilots however, are not skilled. They are competent to barely passing. We all think we are better then we are. You missed the second part where I said 2 equally skilled pilots who are not that good of pilots the python will and should win.
Actual skilled pilots it is different, it comes down almost completely to turning radius.

 

[CARLOS3]

I was bounty hunting at a navpoint and an Anaconda showed up as wanted. I rammed him with my Cobra and he took 40% hull damage - my shield didn't even dent

Yes this is the second way to create Python or Anaconda in a small
To destroy the ship.
not only know the most lool

We show unbalanced ED is!

 

[Defacto]

Have you actually seen 2 skilled pilots going at it? I am certain the viper will win. Most pilots however, are not skilled. They are competent to barely passing. We all think we are better then we are. You missed the second part where I said 2 equally skilled pilots who are not that good of pilots the python will and should win.
Actual skilled pilots it is different, it comes down almost completely to turning radius.

Winning as in Viper killing the Python? I would like to see that.
The way I see it, whenever a Viper fails to kill something, the Viper has lost, because killing stuff is pretty much the only thing the Viper can do.

 

[Demonicus]

Just give us Thargoids to shoot at...then we can all complain about how they need to be buffed or nerfed too!

 

[CARLOS3]

I see a lot of people in here who wish this was WoW where a max level character can have a horde of lower levels pound on them with no effect. Im so glad this is not an mmo like that.

A python is not a fighter. A fighter like the viper is designed to punch above its weight class, the python is designed to punch in its weight class.

A skilled viper pilot by all means should murder a python with an equally skilled pilot. It should be sitting right behind the engines pounding away, matching the python turn for turn.
An unskilled viper pilot though will not be able to take out an equally skilled python pilot. Its tough to sit in that no death zone. They should not stand a chance.

if the Phyton Fighter is not then they should not have a weapon slots 5,
but 100 tons more cargo space and 10 Ly more jumprange ....

 

[daylan]

Winning as in Viper killing the Python? I would like to see that.
The way I see it, whenever a Viper fails to kill something, the Viper has lost, because killing stuff is pretty much the only thing the Viper can do.

That is situational. If I am in a viper that is engaged by a python then winning would be scaring the python away/ not dying. I find you start scraping hull and the pilots of bigger ships question why they are doing something.
If I am hunting pythons in a viper then yes, a kill is the only way to win. Kills are not the only goal a viper pilot could have however.

 

[Cmdr Moritz]

This is like arguing what color blue looks like to one another.

 

[Undisputed]

I will repeat once more get money for python by fighting, not by grinding hidden far away(or solo), then there will not be such posts anymore...

the issue here is that pilot of t6-7-9 is moving to a ship he is not able to fly...

personally when i see cmdr in python or conda involved in fight then i usually jump in, send him full load of my burst and mc's very often it is like 10-20%of hull, just to remaind him, his toy is not a one to rule them all.

and yes im in viper, not skilled enough for camper ship

 

[zaccheus44]

Are you saying that there are people who say that larger ships should have no advantage at all whatsoever? Where are these people?

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Uh yes they should.

I imagine your scenario. Python can easily run away. Vipers loose, Python wins.

Not if they designed it right

 

[MrDoe]

To all the people thinking that the python will be killed by one viper most the time:
Now could be you chance for glory and riches. If you truly believe what you say you should jump into your viper and go for the big player bounties. I have seen them posting and was very interested in their opinion on the python vs viper. Seems i will refrain from coming after you until my skillset and and funds have developed a bit Maybe next year^^

I want a challenge but part of that challenge is acquiring the right kit for the job just as I won’t jump out of a plane at 3000 feet with scuba gear or pull the ripcord of a parachute 30 meters under water and expect to have a good day.

And we have a winner! This is even better than the ketchup comparison from the last python vs viper discussion

 

[Venree]

I will repeat once more get money for python by fighting, not by grinding hidden far away(or solo), then there will not be such posts anymore...

the issue here is that pilot of t6-7-9 is moving to a ship he is not able to fly...

personally when i see cmdr in python or conda involved in fight then i usually jump in, send him full load of my burst and mc's very often it is like 10-20%of hull, just to remaind him, his toy is not a one to rule them all.

and yes im in viper, not skilled enough for camper ship

funny i tend to do the same thing ... the catch here is i usually fly my conda when doing this to both ... big and small ships.

any player in my instance when i'm out fighting is a potential threat and is dealt with accordingly

 

[Kayweg]

By whether I win, obviously.

The Python has more and bigger guns, it has more modules and hard points. It has more power. It has better shields that last long enough for the 5 second shield cell change not to be the big problem it is for the Viper (if it manages to power them). Flight Assist Off has not been disabled. Gimballed weapons remain. Power turns remain. If A Python pilot cannot find a loadout/tactical combo to use all these advantages to combat the one advantage the Viper has then by definition that Python pilot is not the 'best' pilot in the duel.

The moment FD turns into 'biggest ship wins' is the moment they might as well remove the PvP element.

Besides - this is not a PvP game. The many thousands playing in Open and non-pvp groups want to have the fun of becoming skilled enough to take their dedicated combat Vipers up against bigger ships and that should not be taken away.

I don't fly a Viper much, I fly bigger ships but having to fear and respect them is very much a part of my enjoyment.

I simply don't care about whether ships are 'unbalanced' for PvP. It's largely an unprovable concept given all the variables from pilot age, experience through to whether they are using a HOTAS and IR anyway. In my experience once you start trying to balance everything around one small game element you're doomed.

People don't like their classes changing every two months or their skills and muscle memory over-written. That's one of the many things that went wrong with Elder Scrolls Online.

'Ooh, ooh - Sorcs are over-powered. Nerf them. Nightblade ambush skills aren't fair. Nerf them'. Most people didn't care but on and on and on it went. They didn't play PvP (if only because the engine was so crap it couldn't handle it). All they knew was they had to respec their character repeatedly when they were perfectly happy with things as they were for reasons that had nothing to do with them.

It's impossible to balance everything. The bigger ships like the Python and Anaconda etc in ED have huge advantages and if a pilot cannot leverage those into putting up a good fight against smaller ships then that's down to the pilot. I guarantee you that despite the New Python being only hours old the pilots who are really good, rather than the pilots who imagine they are better than they are, have already figured out how to play to the strengths and against the Viper's many weaknesses and are rolling their eyes at this thread.

That doesn't even try to answer my question.

The is no way of measuring and comparing the playing skill/ability of 2 perfect strangers who know nothing of each other.

I don't care about the hardware, it's irrelevant. The header assumes "equal skill", and that's an entity you cannot define.

For all you know, the other player could be vastly superior and have suffered a sneezing fit during the fight, his wife interfered, he tipped over his mug of coffee, urgent phone call, dodgy internet, cat jumped onto his keyboard, he

had a bad day....want me to exceed post limit ?

You winning or loosing proves zip.

"Equal skill" is a theoretical and undefinable term.

 

[dreamer1986]

Honestly, why would you even want to upgrade now from a Clipper to a Python, I wonder. Just looking at stats, the Clipper can carry almost the same cargo, its more maneuverable, and it has three times cheaper purchase cost and insurance. I bet it can handle itself better in combat as well, compared to the Python. Besides that, it looks good from both inside and outside...

 

[Halo Moon]

Honestly, why would you even want to upgrade now from a Clipper to a Python, I wonder. Just looking at stats, the Clipper can carry almost the same cargo, its more maneuverable, and it has three times cheaper purchase cost and insurance. I bet it can handle itself better in combat as well, compared to the Python. Besides that, it looks good from both inside and outside...

More cargo, ability to dock anywhere, ability to slide through the toaster rack with ease AND godlike gun placement

 

[[VR] Frank_G]

Maybe because the python is just the right ship for one? Who cares about stats when you can play the style you want.