Design 101 - Players must ALWAYS have choice to avoid or run instead of fight

[Pebble feline]

Maybe make the police in core systems more efficient, so there is a response time before they jump into an interdiction

or traders can buy an emergency broadcast module that will summon them but can be detected by the pirate maybe
in core systems response time is 30 secs in outer systems 2mins etc

Thus would give the pirates limited time and the traders some hope
more heist orientated.

Spend too long chasing and the cops will jump in and kill you

or leg it fast with a little cargo for you effort

Traders can take the risk to not have a module and pirates risk being caught easily, then the fsd changes make more sense and include more pve to each pvp encounter

 

[Ralph Vargr]

There are psychopath players and NPCs who want to kill you rather than steal cargo, but that's not pirating and is a different problem. NPC behaviour can be fixed. Murderous players could be punished by interesting game mechanics. The problem would be distinguishing between "approved" piracy where a kill is because the trader didn't comply, and wanton murder.


If NPCs behaved more like player pirates (ask for cargo, let a player go after complying or if they have no cargo), there would be less difference between Open and Solo modes, and piracy would be less controversial.

But the NPC's are acting more human everyday- they are simply killing you for the lulz.

 

[ToniB]

Why do we have to go play in solo to trade? Why not go play in solo or a pvp group to fight, that kind of mentality is whats wrong here, I don't want to do that so you can go play somewhere else. Elite is NOT a space combat sim, it has other elements too and interaction with others is part of it.

because of people like you we cant have nice things actually...

 

[Zplintz]

If a Player has the option to run mean they will always succeed in running or just they have the option to try and run?

 

[ToniB]

There are some real stubborn mules on this thread and board....

YOU WILL NOT FORCE ANYONE TO FIGHT!!!!.........If some chap has bought this game to play it "his way" and he wants to explore the Galaxy, maybe he is an asrtonomer or something, zero interest in fighting......"Play it your way"......well, he wont fight, if he gets interdicted and shot up every trip out unless he grinds a billion credits, he will just switch off the game.

You wont force people to fight, you will drive them away from the game.......it is not all about "you" and targets to shoot......it is getting far too pew pew pew........Play it your way is turning in to play it my way, or else.......

its so weird reading this, it makes the impression, all you do is fight in Elite, as in reality its the exact oposite you already DONT FIGHT AT ALL in Elite right now.

 

[Lobstris]

It was done well in the mobile game Galaxy on Fire 2. You could hire these wingmen in stations and they would be with you for a certain amount of time. They came in handy sometimes.

Seen this? https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=14580.

 

[ToniB]

Solo play, yep. Already doing that. I thought this thread was more about making it possible for everyone to open play together. My mistake. As for "tactical awareness" You are saying that a space trucker should be a combat pilot? No, but I'd like to have enough time to be able to turn my space truck into a battering ram, and head full pelt as your hull - At least that way, I can take you down with me. But as I've said previously, my last encounter lasted 8 seconds. Not even enough time to turn around, let alone realise what is going on.

this thread is about eliminating the last 1% challenge and threat elite has left.

 

[Dogoncrook]

They never learn. You can't go by hardpoints deployed though, most competent pirates don't deploy until they're on your 6 and within range. So if you see ANY hollows at all in SC, don't blithely drive in a straight line. If you do, you deserve to be interdicted.

Agreed, and I'll add in busy systems if you hang around in sc away from players you'll see who is hunting and scan everyone for interdictors. Remember who is doing what because you generally run into the same people over and over. It's incredibly easy to avoid pirates when so many people sill stubbornly carry on and ignore the danger. It's very easy to not be the juiciest target in a system.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Respectfully, the original game was originally designed as nothing but combat, trade got added to give the player a reason to care about their ship, and to break up the monotony of combat.

See the recent escapist interview: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...aben-Discusses-Elite-Dangerous-and-Space-Sims
look at the end of para 5. ...and track down the BBC programme discussing the history of Elite... *Edit* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpWoF5uVgbA
.
Either way, whether the chicken or the egg came first - both bits were pretty integral to the experience.



Yes. Because I don't believe that there is a problem with the existing mechanic - indeed, I believe it needs to be an inherent part of the game. Hence, to avoid an interdiction I believe there should be more options, but that doesn't mean the mechanism of interdiction should be removed or suppressed. Here we have a fundamental difference of opinion as to what the game should entail.

You've put your opinion well. I would like a space exploration sim, but there really isn't a large enough market for it.

I think your viewpoint will probably prevail, and I will move on. I do not think we will ever see a game like Elite that will cater to so many demographics/playstyles. My great-niece and nephew might see it; I will not.

 

[Darque]

I admit I stopped reading at page 2, so if someone already said this, I apologize.
I basically agree with the OP on this subject, with one exception. I do like games that have the, "no win" scenario. SOMETIMES the monster is so big, the whole party wipes if they don't run.
In this analogy, sometimes one is interdicted and can't avoid the encounter...BUT
In this game I think that should be an NPC only situation, whether in solo or otherwise. I think sometimes and NPC will interdict you and it's just going to happen.
I don't want to give players that power because as has been said many times, if a ship is set up to interdict/pirate/etc., no trader ship will stand a chance.
So, sometimes, make the NPC interdiction mini-game unavoidable, but allow the FSD spool-up and run to continue. Then the player has SOME choice, but a little npc driven hull damage is cost of doing business.

 

[pluton]

Because you need to deploy your hardpoints in order to interdict someone in the first place......

OK I didn't know that. Even so, he doesn't need to deploy hardpoints until he starts the interdiction.

I haven't seen many players being subtle but even if they were, if you aren't paying attention to the hollow blips your gonna die and it's your fault. What more do you need? You can avoid players interdictions 100% of the time. What you cannot do is ignore them with impunity like you are asking for.

Of course. That's OK if it's quiet, but if there are several players in system, including trading Asps, then you can't be trying to avoid everyone.

I'm not even sure what "behind you means". An interdictor doesn't need to be directly behind you, but what's the angle? From watching twitch streams it seems almost to be "not in front". So "not flying in a straight line" doesn't help much.

 

[Dogoncrook]

OK I didn't know that. Even so, he doesn't need to deploy hardpoints until he starts the interdiction.





Of course. That's OK if it's quiet, but if there are several players in system, including trading Asps, then you can't be trying to avoid everyone.

I'm not even sure what "behind you means". An interdictor doesn't need to be directly behind you, but what's the angle? From watching twitch streams it seems almost to be "not in front". So "not flying in a straight line" doesn't help much.

Just lock them and watch the distance. But again you are in a hostile area if your surrounded by cmdrs and you either need to be ready for it or leave. The solution for you if you don't want to fight is find a safer area.

 

[Scoob]

I suspect more than a few Traders have retreated to SOLO because their first few interdiction experiences at the hands of players haven't been a nicely roll-played bit of piracy. Rather they've just been blow away with no interaction other than laser fire. I'd be all for donating a bit of cargo to be left to go on my way - I'd even go as far as to PAY the pirate to sit on my wing for cold, hard CASH if the game allowed. What I'd not want is to be blown away "for the lolz" and loose potentially several hours of play due to lost cargo. Not fun at all. If that's what OPEN turned into then I'd go 100% SOLO.

For the record, I've been interdicted by NPC's when there have been NO ships on my radar - I always try to keep an eye on my Radar while in Super Cruise - not much else to do after all - but I still get surprised.

Remember, while submitting and boosting away can be very effective - it's only effective if your current load-out lets you do it. I.e. a "pure" trader in a Type 6 might be totally unarmed and have a basic Power Plant and Distributor, this means they'd be unable to constantly boost away from a faster, better equipped ship. I was caught myself a few times when starting out and, even last night in my well-equipped Asp, I encountered an AI Pilot who was almost as fast as me off-boost as I was at boost (360!) Conversely, a player who's made the choice to stay light and weapon-free and upgrade his engines to make his ship better at escaping deserves his advantage. What are the down-sides of fitting an Interdictor? Power use seems really low, they don't appear to run hot, so other than loosing a potential cargo slot there's not much downside I can see.

I still say that ship mass, FSD Size and Class as well as Interdictor quality should have a greater impact on how easy / hard it is to interdict someone. A small 2A Interdictor on a Sidewinder being able to yank a 5A FSD equipped Asp out of SC with ease strike me as a little odd. If the act of interdiction heated up BOTH parties, then individual modules efficiency is even more critical - of course epic skillz can still win if the odds are against you.

At the end of the day, if players who wish to mostly trade feel they have no option but to submit to (unpredictable) players, they'll stick to SOLO. Forcing certain groups of players out of OPEN and into SOLO or private groups is to the detriment of the whole game.

Scoob.

 

[AstroZak]

The things that FD needs to do are :


1. Safe systems and dangerous systems: in safe systems profits should be lower but security higher... go to unsafe systems and profits rise but it comes with a rise of risk.
2. Change the wanted mechanic and pirate bases. A pirate that attacks or players who murder should not be allowed into regular stations.... they are wanted.
Instead Pirates should have their own lawless outposts/systems were they can escape etc...
3. If a pirate wants to become part of the regular society their should be missions/mechanics implemented that could get rid of the wanted status. Paying a small wanted fine in regular system is not enough because at the moment anybody can switch roles to easily. Within 10 minutes i can become a safe trader after i murdered a clean cmdr which just doesn't feel right...

After these things are implemented we can tweak the interdiction mechanic....
and traders can choose the 'dangerous' route or the safe route.

A lot of the game mechanics feel wrong because the game is not fleshed out properly. We don't need endless tweaking of game-mechanics. We need the universe to be fleshed out in a way the game mechanics make sense.

I had another thought, hopefully the alledged wings update will allow some of this idea...

I'd like to be able to hire NPC's as Escort. So, they'd need paying which is fine. But I'd love to be able to hire one or more pilots, I'd like to be able to supply them with the ship from my fleet - so if I want to put them into an Anaconda to escort me in a hauler, that's my business - as long as I can pay the bill. So, here's where things could get clever - my combat rating as a trader will be low. So, have the NPC's combat skill scale directly with my combined elite status - combat + trading + exploring. Or maybe have the NPC like a companion - the more hows flying with you the better they get. But what this would allow is for me to go trading, but have an escort.

So to all the pirates out there, how would you feel about attacking a Type-7 being escorted by an Asp? Of if I was allowed to hire more NPCs (which I don't see as a problem, as long as I can pay the bill) a fleet of five Anacondas?

 

[ToniB]

I had another thought, hopefully the alledged wings update will allow some of this idea...

I'd like to be able to hire NPC's as Escort. So, they'd need paying which is fine. But I'd love to be able to hire one or more pilots, I'd like to be able to supply them with the ship from my fleet - so if I want to put them into an Anaconda to escort me in a hauler, that's my business - as long as I can pay the bill. So, here's where things could get clever - my combat rating as a trader will be low. So, have the NPC's combat skill scale directly with my combined elite status - combat + trading + exploring. Or maybe have the NPC like a companion - the more hows flying with you the better they get. But what this would allow is for me to go trading, but have an escort.

So to all the pirates out there, how would you feel about attacking a Type-7 being escorted by an Asp? Of if I was allowed to hire more NPCs (which I don't see as a problem, as long as I can pay the bill) a fleet of five Anacondas?

all nice, if a complete reset is done before that feature.

you see all these traders basically earned their fortune due to bugs, unfinished AI leading to making profit without any harm whatsoever in solo mode.

solo modes needs to be a similar challenge then multi. THEN buying wingman with your LEGITIMATE earned money, is all ok with me.

 

[Scoob]

I'm hoping to be able to hire NPC's too in the future - either a ship + pilot combo, with associated cost based on Ship, equipment and skill. Or indeed hire a longer-term employee to pilot one of MY ships. I'd love that. My self with a couple of NPC hireling in my spare Cobra would be great...of course the risk is that Pirates can bring their mates too...plus we'd potentially have TWO lots of insurance excess payments to sump up for if things went south

Scoob.

 

[AstroZak]

<redacted>

 

[AstroZak]

I'm hoping to be able to hire NPC's too in the future - either a ship + pilot combo, with associated cost based on Ship, equipment and skill. Or indeed hire a longer-term employee to pilot one of MY ships. I'd love that. My self with a couple of NPC hireling in my spare Cobra would be great...of course the risk is that Pirates can bring their mates too...plus we'd potentially have TWO lots of insurance excess payments to sump up for if things went south

Scoob.

Of course. could also add some kind of reputation thing, I don't know how it would work, but if done right could bring in the concept of the pilot that no one will fly with.

 

[Dogoncrook]

I suspect more than a few Traders have retreated to SOLO because their first few interdiction experiences at the hands of players haven't been a nicely roll-played bit of piracy. Rather they've just been blow away with no interaction other than laser fire. I'd be all for donating a bit of cargo to be left to go on my way - I'd even go as far as to PAY the pirate to sit on my wing for cold, hard CASH if the game allowed. What I'd not want is to be blown away "for the lolz" and loose potentially several hours of play due to lost cargo. Not fun at all. If that's what OPEN turned into then I'd go 100% SOLO.

For the record, I've been interdicted by NPC's when there have been NO ships on my radar - I always try to keep an eye on my Radar while in Super Cruise - not much else to do after all - but I still get surprised.

Remember, while submitting and boosting away can be very effective - it's only effective if your current load-out lets you do it. I.e. a "pure" trader in a Type 6 might be totally unarmed and have a basic Power Plant and Distributor, this means they'd be unable to constantly boost away from a faster, better equipped ship. I was caught myself a few times when starting out and, even last night in my well-equipped Asp, I encountered an AI Pilot who was almost as fast as me off-boost as I was at boost (360!) Conversely, a player who's made the choice to stay light and weapon-free and upgrade his engines to make his ship better at escaping deserves his advantage. What are the down-sides of fitting an Interdictor? Power use seems really low, they don't appear to run hot, so other than loosing a potential cargo slot there's not much downside I can see.

I still say that ship mass, FSD Size and Class as well as Interdictor quality should have a greater impact on how easy / hard it is to interdict someone. A small 2A Interdictor on a Sidewinder being able to yank a 5A FSD equipped Asp out of SC with ease strike me as a little odd. If the act of interdiction heated up BOTH parties, then individual modules efficiency is even more critical - of course epic skillz can still win if the odds are against you.

At the end of the day, if players who wish to mostly trade feel they have no option but to submit to (unpredictable) players, they'll stick to SOLO. Forcing certain groups of players out of OPEN and into SOLO or private groups is to the detriment of the whole game.

Scoob.

The balance is debatable, but invulnerability probably isnt on the table. In the ddf it is pretty clear the devs intend for traders to have to make hard decisions and take risks like any other activity. If you can't avoid being interdicted by commanders as it is now though, it's because you are not trying to and you are taking risks, and it's logical to me that if you play that way you'll suffer for it. Blaming other people regardless of motivation is absurd, you can avoid it, you just refuse to do so. It's hard to accept balance suggestions from people who refuse to use the resources already at their disposal.

 

[AuGuR]

The ability to avoid the interdiction is already in game. It's that minigame where you steer your ship towards the exit vector. To possibly prevent hull damage, submit to the interdiction, which being less stressful on the FSD, have a lesser cooldown timer and you can boost and FSD cruise/jump out. Or if that should fail, boost, boost and boost some more till the timer runs out. See, 3 different ways to avoid the fight, with the first 2 ways to get out of the interdiction almost clean.

The problem with the situation is that it's unbalanced negatively towards the would-be pirate. If the interdiction is unsuccessful, the pirate is dropped into an instance, takes some damage (or not) to the hull, and has to wait for their FSD cooldown before beginning the chase anew. Should the target submit to the interdiction, there's not much time to send a message to the target their intentions, and usually the targets gets their shields drained a bit before they're able to SC/jump out. The last being more towards the pirate's benefit, they have time to send their demands, and begin to engage the, now running, target. And even then there's no guarantee to their attempt to piracy.

Basically saying, its 2.5/0.5 in favor of the target of the interdiction. However, forcing a completed interdiction despite the minigame puts the engagement almost fully in the pirates hands, a 0.25/0.75 ratio.

Only real options (imo) to balance are:
Remove submitting to the pirate as an option.
If the target submits, increase the cooldown somewhere between where it is for failing at the minigame, thus still benefit from submitting and preventing a stressed FSD.
Slightly increase the cooldown for the target failing the interdiction.

Short of evasion, the pirate gains a better chance at robbing the target of their shinies.