Design 101 - Players must ALWAYS have choice to avoid or run instead of fight

[Midnight-shadow]

What most of you seem to be missing here is if you can easily escape every interdiction then interdictions become meaningless, and the entire facet of piracy becomes pointless and obsolete. If everyone can easily run away, you can't make money in piracy and therefore piracy has been eliminated among the player base. This in turn creates more trolls, quitters, and folks forced into trading for lack of anything else to do (all other jobs are basically broken or unbalance).

It's kind of funny how when the game was introduced as multiplayer, you all got so excited and yet here it is and most of you want nothing to do with it. Which leads to one inevitable conclusion, the game's overall design is flawed as it doesn't create a community for all. Players have chosen to either isolate themselves, troll and harass well meaning players due to boredom, or give up playing altogether.

I read this really awesome forum post from a game designer at RIOT regarding game design theory. I wish I could find it and send it to FD because they sorely need lessons in the fundamentals.

No, what it means is that FD are trying to do what most developers do in mmorpgs and try to cater to multiple demographics that are at opposite ends of the spectrum. What FD need to do is decide whether they want this game to be for hardcore or casual players and balance the game around that singular demographic, because right now they are trying to cater for both and ing off both groups.

Game developers need to learn that if you try to please everyone you will please nobody. It's like a film that tries to be both a romantic comedy and a horror flick at the same time. IT DOES NOT WORK! Choose your demographic, make it clear who you are focusing the game on and stick to it.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Players need agency. They need choice. They need decisions. One such fundamental decision is whether to get into a fight or not. With other players. With NPCs. It doesn't matter. Fights can be "fun". They can also be "costly". The "fun" should be balanced against the "cost", and that balancing should be left 100% in the hands of the player, not the game.

Don't forget that the actual fight starts before the interdiction has started.

• You see icons on your scanner .. those behind you could interdict you - choice : move or risk it
• During the interdiction itself you have a choice : submit or try to evade.
• If you are interdicted you have more choices : fight, run, or try to barter (depending upon the situation)

Plenty of choices ..


You have examples so I will : I met another player who had their hard points out and was behind me. I did not want to be interdicted so I started a loop .. they did the same ... we went round and round in circles .. I sent them a PM to that effect so they invited me to a voice chat. Long story short - they dropped out of SC thinking I was going to follow them but instead it sped off to my original destination .. my choice

 

[Yokai]

When wings are inserted, all this goes away. When a group can interdict together, the playing field gets leveled. It will be obvious a person is being followed by a group in supercruise, so there still will be choice, fly well or fly away. In short, hang tight, 'cause you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Unless there are AI npcs for hire in wings, it does not all go away. Many players do not have time to "herd cats" with other players when faced with typical short play windows and semi-AFK real life concerns. Why do you think the hard core raiding mechanic has all but died out in MMOs (Carbine's recent failure with Wildstar should have proved this once and for all)? Every game in the past 5 years (or more) that has _required_ players to group together to get anything done (especially at end game) has been a miserable failure. (Optional end-game content that requires grouping is still arguably viable, but even here every game has been scaling back in that design area.)

 

[Jackruss]

IMHO…
Open play is not reserved for Pirate PVP, please get over that.
I think, it is for Multi Player. It is called a multi-player game not a Pirating Game.
Not all those who consent to play Multi Player consent to be Prated.
If I consent to being Pirated, I will drop Cargo and play the Prate game as a Victim.
If I don’t consent then I should be able to avoid the Pirate, before Interdiction, during Interdiction and after Interdiction when the Pirate continues to force his play style on me.
Where does this notion come from, that by consent to multi-player in Open, I automatically consent to being robbed by a (*)&*^*&T%&&^$R$^ Prate.
A Pirate, who just wants to have fun at my expense in a ship much more suitable to the Interdiction than my Trading Ship.
Whilst this applies to PVP specifically, the NPC Interdictions should be kept to a sensible level of Dangerous not suicidal.

 

[Rhywden]

IMHO…
Open play is not reserved for Pirate PVP, please get over that.
I think, it is for Multi Player. It is called a multi-player game not a Pirating Game.
Not all those who consent to play Multi Player consent to be Prated.
If I consent to being Pirated, I will drop Cargo and play the Prate game as a Victim.
If I don’t consent then I should be able to avoid the Pirate, before Interdiction, during Interdiction and after Interdiction when the Pirate continues to force his play style on me.
Where does this notion come from, that by consent to multi-player in Open, I automatically consent to being robbed by a (*)&*^*&T%&&^$R$^ Prate.
A Pirate, who just wants to have fun at my expense in a ship much more suitable to the Interdiction than my Trading Ship.
Whilst this applies to PVP specifically, the NPC Interdictions should be kept to a sensible level of Dangerous not suicidal.

This is a great example of people reading neither the initial post nor additional posts in the thread and jumping to conclusions.

Once again: The FSD cooldown after submitting to an interdiction is too short. A dev acknowledged that.

 

[Hatsune Miku]

Design 101 written by a Yokai?
That's a book i'd burn in someone else's fireplace.

It's clear from his posts that he has either an utter lack of experience or is just trying to make trading easier than it already is.
We all know the income of a trader compared to that of any other profession is rediculously skewed right now, so where the hell is this argument that it's too expensive to repair a high end trader ship coming from?
No, wait, why are they even taking damage in the first place from regular combat? Do they actually think running without shields and a single shield cell bank is perfectly fine in a cutthroat universe? Dumbfire nuking isn't even a thing anymore.

The worst excuse i've heard is that the radar is hard to read. No matter that you can identify whether another vessel is carrying an FSDI by scanning them and looking at their modules. It's stupid how clear it is to see a ship approaching your rear - most pirates buy the worst interdictor to keep their costs low, so often enough, they have to chase you to the station where the celestial's gravity well will slow your ship down.

You have plenty of options upon entering a system in supercruise and spotting players with interdictors to utterly avoid conflict already:
- Exit supercruise (emergency drop or otherwise) and redirect to another system with your cargo or change trade route.
- Do the first, but instead of changing course, switch to solo
- Press on and risk it in the mini game if you're inclined.
You do not have the 4th option of flying around, willy nilly and naive as a child expecting to have 100% success in moving your cargo from A to B. Not even solo should be that easy.

 

[Sim Maker]

There are some real stubborn mules on this thread and board....

YOU WILL NOT FORCE ANYONE TO FIGHT!!!!.........If some chap has bought this game to play it "his way" and he wants to explore the Galaxy, maybe he is an asrtonomer or something, zero interest in fighting......"Play it your way"......well, he wont fight, if he gets interdicted and shot up every trip out unless he grinds a billion credits, he will just switch off the game.

You wont force people to fight, you will drive them away from the game.......it is not all about "you" and targets to shoot......it is getting far too pew pew pew........Play it your way is turning in to play it my way, or else.......

 

[Tar Stone]

Combat? (Y/N)

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Unless there are AI npcs for hire in wings, it does not all go away. Many players do not have time to "herd cats" with other players when faced with typical short play windows and semi-AFK real life concerns. Why do you think the hard core raiding mechanic has all but died out in MMOs (Carbine's recent failure with Wildstar should have proved this once and for all)? Every game in the past 5 years (or more) that has _required_ players to group together to get anything done (especially at end game) has been a miserable failure. (Optional end-game content that requires grouping is still arguably viable, but even here every game has been scaling back in that design area.)

All too true. It gets worse as you get older...

 

[Hatsune Miku]

There are some real stubborn mules on this thread and board....

YOU WILL NOT FORCE ANYONE TO FIGHT!!!!.........If some chap has bought this game to play it "his way" and he wants to explore the Galaxy, maybe he is an asrtonomer or something, zero interest in fighting......"Play it your way"......well, he wont fight, if he gets interdicted and shot up every trip out unless he grinds a billion credits, he will just switch off the game.

You wont force people to fight, you will drive them away from the game.......it is not all about "you" and targets to shoot......it is getting far too pew pew pew........Play it your way is turning in to play it my way, or else.......

What a dumb argument. If he's exploring the galaxy, he's nowhere near the civilized systems in the first place and he's not exempt from fighting AI.
To begin with, he'd normally be faced with Thargoids, but hey, free pass to enjoy the sights.

 

[Robbeh]

There are/will be plenty of options to avoid having to fight:

• Don't fly the most direct route from the sun to a station
• Evade as soon as you see a contact lining up on your tail
• Strong shields
• Shield cells
• Countermeasures
• Bring friends (that one will have to wait for wings ofc)
• Trade in low pop/out of the way systems

Sure this means you cant semi-afk trade in a shieldless type-6 on the most high profile/profitable routes but that is just risk vs reward at play!

Other than that, this thread seems to be the perfect opportunity for the ever loved "Perhaps this game isn't for you."

 

[Loskene]

There are some real stubborn mules on this thread and board....

YOU WILL NOT FORCE ANYONE TO FIGHT!!!!.........If some chap has bought this game to play it "his way" and he wants to explore the Galaxy, maybe he is an asrtonomer or something, zero interest in fighting......"Play it your way"......well, he wont fight, if he gets interdicted and shot up every trip out unless he grinds a billion credits, he will just switch off the game.

You wont force people to fight, you will drive them away from the game.......it is not all about "you" and targets to shoot......it is getting far too pew pew pew........Play it your way is turning in to play it my way, or else.......

If you have zero interest in combat you don't play games with a focus on combat. And don't say ED isn't a space combat sim either, that's about the only mechanic with any meat on its bones. If you play this game, no matter what role you choose, you must be ready for the eventuality of combat either against players or NPCs. If you choose to ignore this, you're the only one who'll suffer for it. This is not eurotruck simulator or microsoft flight or spreadsheet simulator, this is Elite Dangerous. Can you dig it?

 

[Hatsune Miku]

Unless there are AI npcs for hire in wings, it does not all go away. Many players do not have time to "herd cats" with other players when faced with typical short play windows and semi-AFK real life concerns. Why do you think the hard core raiding mechanic has all but died out in MMOs (Carbine's recent failure with Wildstar should have proved this once and for all)? Every game in the past 5 years (or more) that has _required_ players to group together to get anything done (especially at end game) has been a miserable failure. (Optional end-game content that requires grouping is still arguably viable, but even here every game has been scaling back in that design area.)

You'll need to cite that with surveys of players who have left said games, otherwise it's just a fart in the wind.

 

[Sim Maker]

Give people a choice through "tactics"..........?
..

Make it so if you have no cargo, you can't be interdicted? I mean why would a pirate pull over a ship without cargo? It would at least give the explorers a chance......I can't imagine being out on the road for a month, then getting shot up on the front door by someone just having a 5 min blast......No one looses except griefers that want to shoot up anything they see......

 

[Midnight-shadow]

There are some real stubborn mules on this thread and board....

YOU WILL NOT FORCE ANYONE TO FIGHT!!!!.........If some chap has bought this game to play it "his way" and he wants to explore the Galaxy, maybe he is an asrtonomer or something, zero interest in fighting......"Play it your way"......well, he wont fight, if he gets interdicted and shot up every trip out unless he grinds a billion credits, he will just switch off the game.

You wont force people to fight, you will drive them away from the game.......it is not all about "you" and targets to shoot......it is getting far too pew pew pew........Play it your way is turning in to play it my way, or else.......

I will once again quote from the ED website:

Remember it's a cut throat galaxy out there and combat is a basic skill that you need to survive. It can also provide rich pickings, be it bounty hunting or piracy.

You can make a healthy profit as a smuggler or an honest trader. But beware the pirate looking to make their own profit - from you.

This is the game that FD want. If you don't like it then either go solo or go home. Remember that not all games are suited to your playstyle. There are a ton of games that I love in terms of story or concept but their genre means I will never play them. Do you think I should go to the developer of that game and demand they change the genre of their game to suit me?

Make it so if you have no cargo, you can't be interdicted? I mean why would a pirate pull over a ship without cargo? It would at least give the explorers a chance......I can't imagine being out on the road for a month, then getting shot up on the front door by someone just having a 5 min blast......No one looses except griefers that want to shoot up anything they see......

I really wish people would think before they type. If you did this the people who would benefit the most are the "griefers" who just go around shooting whoever they like. All they have to do is make sure they have no cargo bay and boom! Instant immunity from the law.

 

[Daffan]

I've been thinking for a while about FD's statements about intended changes to "make interdictions harder to avoid", and how to concisely say what I think is very fundamentally wrong about that from a design and player retention standpoint. I'm going to sidestep all the constant arguments about whether "pirate" mechanics should be in the game or whether the game is too easy to hack and grief with it's P2P networking design. Let's just focus on basic _design_ fundamentals that are firmly within FD's control.

Every single game I've ever seen, not just "massive multiplayer" ones, always revolve around a basic design fundamental that I seriously wonder if FD is planning to circumvent:

"A player should _always_ have the option to either run from a potential fight or to avoid a fight altogether"

Players need agency. They need choice. They need decisions. One such fundamental decision is whether to get into a fight or not. With other players. With NPCs. It doesn't matter. Fights can be "fun". They can also be "costly". The "fun" should be balanced against the "cost", and that balancing should be left 100% in the hands of the player, not the game.

Some simple examples from the history of MMOs:

* In games where aggressive CC mechanics like stuns, etc. were largely _unavoidable_ and _uncounterable_, the players very often speak with their feet and their wallets and either leave or stay away. And those that stay complain bitterly.

* In every MMO since the genre began, the game gives you plenty of visual cues or even visible mini-map "blips" to see potential trouble ahead _before you are detected by the game AI_ and you have the choice to try to find a different path to avoid the fight entirely. Or, some games might force you into "surprise attacks", but you always have the option and tools to simply try to run away successfully.

Interdictions as they stand today still give players agency and choice. You can simply submit, boost/evade for a very short time, and then FSD away. Or, you can stay and fight. Choice. It's good.

But what FD has been hinting at is an upcoming change whereby (as I interpret their comments), players will essentially be _forced_ into interdictions and their FSD will be forcibly disabled for much longer than it is now. This is VERY bad, IMO. I don't care whether we're talking about player pirates or NPC pirates: there are too many ship-ship matchups where the interdicting ship has a strong and unfair advantage against the interdicted ship. In many such matchups, the interdicted ship might be able to get away, but with a certain amount of hull damage which is far too costly. If you do not give the interdicted ship a chance to decide for themselves that the matchup is not in their favor, and you do not give them the tools to effectively run from such an imbalanced fight, then you are _doing design wrong_.

It's that simple.

Why dont you just not get interdicted in the first place?

You can see them on the radar in supercruise.....

In World War 2, getting into position. Like a U-boat chasing a convoy was half the battle, not firing torpedoes. In the Battle of Britain, seeing the enemy Heinkels coming was half the battle, not the actual dog fighting itself.

If you give tools that everyone can use to escape. Give tools to the pirates that they can skillfully use to stop them from escaping. Sorry, this game shouldn't favour one over the other.

And your examples are non-existant (Every-mmo). UO, EVE, WOW even had ways of slowing, stunning and keeping people tied down - no one is quitting those games for PvP reasons (when UO was relevant).


Most ships if played right can already escape easily with no effort, since their is a speed cap and weapons only do damage out to 1.2km at a good amount. Only some trade ships can't get away.

 

[Loskene]

Give people a choice through "tactics"..........?
..

Make it so if you have no cargo, you can't be interdicted? I mean why would a pirate pull over a ship without cargo? It would at least give the explorers a chance......I can't imagine being out on the road for a month, then getting shot up on the front door by someone just having a 5 min blast......No one looses except griefers that want to shoot up anything they see......

To scan them for bounties. You can tell an explorer ship from a cargo hauler as soon as you look at the subsystems, but some people don't care either way. You just have to be prepared to deal with the occasional psychopath, or avoid populated areas if your ship is made of balsa wood and you're afraid of dying.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Other than that, this thread seems to be the perfect opportunity for the ever loved "Perhaps this game isn't for you."

OP without shields aside, it is rapidly turning into a game where combat is the preferred mode. When it gets down to a steelcage deathmatch like World Of Warplanes (and about the same number of players), you might want to re-think that. Frontier should.

 

[Jackruss]

This is a great example of people reading neither the initial post nor additional posts in the thread and jumping to conclusions.

Once again: The FSD cooldown after submitting to an interdiction is too short. A dev acknowledged that.

Funnily enough, I did read the Post and to me the OP was saying that no escape from an Interdiction is not good for the game. making it even harder is just absurd.
If your Dev. continues to program against the honest trader trying to play his game in the community spirit of live and let live.
Then a lot of players will be even more disillusioned than they are at present.
Or simply call the game Elite Viper or Elite Pirate, and just scrub the multi-player concept altogether.
NPC Pirates are manageable but tooled up PVP Pirates are a game breaker.
Finally, I think the cool-down Period is too long now, not too short. But I suppose we must not make it too difficult for the Honest Prate.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

You'll need to cite that with surveys of players who have left said games, otherwise it's just a fart in the wind.

I left World Of Tanks, World Of Warplanes, and Mechwarrior Online, for just the reasons cited. You were either in an elite competitive team, or you were dead.