Design 101 - Players must ALWAYS have choice to avoid or run instead of fight

[katheb]

Um, guys... There is a way to avoid intradictions. If you see someone flying too close for comfort in SC get the heck outta there. No really, if you don't get within range they can't intradict you... and defiantly don't le them get behind you.

"Oh I am flying in a straight line in pirate terratory... Oh look a ship Hi there you seem to be flying right near me oh he is slowing down he must be going some where else..." INTRADICTION !!!

What did you expect?

 

[Dominico]

http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/18/top-earning-pirates-biz-logistics-cx_mw_0919piracy.html

*BOOM*
Mikedrop...

EDIT: also, if you actually DID brush up on history a bit, you'd know that pirates usually did their trade in smaller but faster ships. Something that seems to be very different than the common "get a bigger ship" response that pirates get when complaining about traders managing to get away before they can do damage to them.

The best pirates often had big ships though never good choice quoting history when you are not sure...

Just like the game pirates in sloops and pinnace were near impossible to catch but couldnt carry much loot. Pirates who moved up to galleons were truelly a terror but didnt last long.

I think the game has this pretty nailed.

 

[tagos]

Um, guys... There is a way to avoid intradictions. If you see someone flying too close for comfort in SC get the heck outta there. No really, if you don't get within range they can't intradict you... and defiantly don't le them get behind you.

"Oh I am flying in a straight line in pirate terratory... Oh look a ship Hi there you seem to be flying right near me oh he is slowing down he must be going some where else..." INTRADICTION !!!

What did you expect?

Quite. Just like there are just plain bad pirates who can't figure out how to do it properly there's traders who seem unable to figure this out.

 

[BarFly]

Hello,

and how did they end?
Drake was not a common Pirate, he had a letter of the queen.
Ok, but if you read beyond the spectacular headlines you will find this:

For the most part, pirates didn’t make much money, and they certainly didn’t save it. The amount of cash they needed to keep on hand to cover their liabilities cut into their fortunes. Crew members that lost limbs in battle could be compensated at a rate of 1,500 pound per limb. Since infection could easily cause death, the remedy for gunshot wounds was often amputation. With 100 men on a ship, if 10 limbs were lost during battle, that was a 15,000 pound loss, or about $3 million in today’s dollars. It’s easy to see why pirates tried to take ships without firing a shot. A few drunken sailors getting themselves nicked could negate the entire profit.
Pirates didn’t have 401(k) plans, so burying a pile of gold was sometimes the smartest way to save for the future–that is, when they had one. Samuel Bellamy’s treasure sank with him off Cape Cod, most of Bartholomew Roberts’ fortune ($32 million) was taken after he died in battle in 1722 and Stede Bonnet’s wealth ($4.4 million) was absorbed into the South Carolina treasury after his 1718 execution. Jean Fleury’s Aztec gold wasn’t recovered and was probably spread thin over brothels and saloons from Cuba to France; it’s likely been melted down over the last 500 years into gold bars lining national treasuries and formed into wedding rings the world over.

 

[ChrisUK27]

Um, guys... There is a way to avoid intradictions. If you see someone flying too close for comfort in SC get the heck outta there. No really, if you don't get within range they can't intradict you... and defiantly don't le them get behind you.

"Oh I am flying in a straight line in pirate terratory... Oh look a ship Hi there you seem to be flying right near me oh he is slowing down he must be going some where else..." INTRADICTION !!!

What did you expect?

Or before they get a hook on you just mash J and drop out of SC where you are. Whilst they're busy trying to locate you have everything charged up. They jump in and you jump out the same instant.

It would be nice to see some traders actually using some organisation, let's call it teamwork. Even without Wings it's possible to fly together.

How about a Trojan horse for instance? Send in a fat slow trading ship with his mates waiting to jump in when he's (she's) interdicted? Might make the Rat think twice!

 

[Yokai]

Um, guys... There is a way to avoid intradictions. If you see someone flying too close for comfort in SC get the heck outta there. No really, if you don't get within range they can't intradict you... and defiantly don't le them get behind you.

"Oh I am flying in a straight line in pirate terratory... Oh look a ship Hi there you seem to be flying right near me oh he is slowing down he must be going some where else..." INTRADICTION !!!

What did you expect?

That might work for player interdictions, but in solo the ship about to interdict you never appears on the radar. There is zero visible indication. And yes, this thread is about all forms of play, not just open.

Or before they get a hook on you just mash J and drop out of SC where you are. Whilst they're busy trying to locate you have everything charged up. They jump in and you jump out the same instant.

So: forcibly drop from hypercruise. Again, not feasible until they balance large ship maintenance costs. in a Python that 200,000 cr right there.

 

[cpy]

Well noobs can't see flight path of nearby ships, because they're new to everything, but i can see noob NPC/CMDR from lightyears away! Their turning rate will lead them right behind you, and it's so easy to see.

 

[CrazyH0rse]

Yay... lets make a game where it's impossible to lose.

If that's supposed to help with player retention... I'm not sure they're the kind of players we need to retain!

 

[Hawkmoon]

I think an increase to FDS cool down would be ok if they scaled the response time of authority ship (and upped their ability) in line with the systems security status. So in a high sec system you would get a fast response (as long as you have report crimes switched on) maybe as little as 20 sec, at the other end in an anarchy system you might never see any help, we also need an sos function to alert other commanders that you are under attack.

 

[friendship drive charging]

as a python player i don't get this choice at all. the vipers/cobras that choose to run always get away now though. the second they boost more than 3km away.

 

[Sim Maker]

This is all going to end badly.......

In summary. Early kickstarters and those wanting to exploit broken game code, have now Billions in credits and A rated everything.....and they are bored..............so they want to shoot up traders, but they cant becasue the ONLY defence a new player has against one of these mega ships, is to run......but, the old timers dont like that, they want to Pew Pew becasue they are bored........and in order to keep things "fair" the Devs have uped interdictions to the point of stupidity even in Solo modes....so now even playing there is becoming tedius in the extreme..........I was pulled out of super cruise 4 times in a 600 light second journey last night....by a Hauler, Ader, and 2 Sidewinders without shields...........I was in an A Rated Viper...........waste of time.......and annoying......and I am not going to go out trading, exploring or mining in Solo, and risk losing a days "work" because someone else wants targets to shoot at...................so Elite has gone from being a wide open galaxy to explore, to a Pew Pew fest...........now, i just hang around RES sites blowing stuff up.........

So my Hat goes off to this forum, through your bleating, you have created a trued 80s classic for me......Asteroids...... I am not grinding/ for ships or credits anymore.....so that I can what, shoot more stuff?

They created an amazing galaxy where we could mine, explore, trade, fight, pirate......but, it is rapidly becoming just a death match, an Arcade game.....................Elite-Suicidal.

Some players started with a huge advantage over others, and more so since release with trading bugs........and now those same players are demanding that beginners "play by the rules" and stop running away, stand still and be shot..........balls to that. I will just treat Elite like what it is now, an 80s arcade game...........pew pew.....

 

[nazartp]

Not sure if this was covered in 17 pages but here it goes:

Situation:
1. To keep the game diverse in terms of experiences ED needs to maintain numerous categories of ships, including T6, T7, T9 barges that die like flies in any sort of combat. Those are lower in cost than a corresponding heavily armed and combat capable ones and allow the players to get to the next level of wealth.
2. Despite historic references to poor pirates, the existence of the pirates (NPC and human ones) is necessary in the game to have a healthy supply of bounties to the bounty hunters. Right now piracy is an expensive hobby.
3. There is little to none gradation in terms of safety of the systems. Except for claiming its an Anarchy the only difference is if system authorities show up if someone is shooting at you.

Proposed approach:
1. Make FSD cooldown under submission the same as after successful interdiction.
2. If the pirate wins the minigame, he/she takes no or little damage.
3. Work on really making system safety work:
A) Secure space should be secure, i.e., authorities show up immediately with guns blazing. And not the puny Eagles, I mean 'Condas and Pythons. In numbers. That will force only very skilled and very well equipped human pirate players venture in those systems for piracy.
B) Anarchy systems should be dangerous also in solo mode. Make interdictions almost a certainty.
C) Adjust trading returns to reflect the level of risk. Secure systems will offer healthy but unremarkable returns per run and you can run a Lakon tub with little to no shields. Anarchy systems will offer high returns to reward well armed traders that not only invest in well equipped ships but are ready to fight. Simulate the hell out of that mechanics making returns in different systems roughly equal over time.
D) Make pirating bounties hard to repay - killed someone, get stuck with an outlaw status. Robbed someone, have the penalty being the fine+price of stolen cargo.

That way you will allow for natural selection between the players: want a quiet runs in T9, go to core systems and trade quietly. Want some thrills, brave the Anarchy systems in an armed to the teeth trader at the expense of cargo space. Pirates who will suffer less damage in the interdiction game will have an incentive to have bigger ships, thus allowing confrontations with heavy traders.

Perma-bounties for killing would temper the gun-crazy pirates while high penalties for stolen goods will prevent pirates from treating piracy as a hobby. You turn a pirate, be ready to stick to anarchy systems. Major brownie points should be necessary to remove outlaw status. That would also allow FD to have anarchy specific missions to remove outlaw status. Almost like ranking ones.

Just my thoughts.

 

[tagos]

Rep for Nazatp.

This of course is how the game should have been designed from the very beginning. It's like no one at FD had ever played an online game before.

 

[roohan]

I don't like the interdiction mechanic since FD introduced it in beta. Before I had a blast cruising around and watching the stars in total peace. I don't like the arcade part of many space simulations out there. But Elite ist a bit different. The milky way doesn't have some sort of save zones. You can't avoid Interdiction with an Anti-Interdictor. Other games offer opportunities to avoid fighting others.

On a gameplay side it might be cool that players can do some pirating. But as someone said your freedom stops where my freedom begins. And for me it's simply annoying to get interdicted. There should be a module to block interdictions. Sorry but chilling around and watching elites scenery just to get interdicted sucks. I would understand this if you did something illegal and because of that everyone has the right to interdict you.

 

[Commander Silex]

Rep for Nazatp.

This of course is how the game should have been designed from the very beginning. It's like no one at FD had ever played an online game before.

I think the main issue is they pushed the game out before the relevant systems were properly implemented.

 

[Sentenza]

This week I did a brief stint in a cargo. Well I HATE IT but I also learned some interesting things.

First, a cargo can't really excape interdiction. Seriously. Second, I have experimented some techniques to escape, and while they are somwehat effective, they are not life savers. Entering silent mode with an heat sink works can make a T6 run away, even with the longer cooling period, but I really doubt it can work on anything larger, like the slow-as-a-snail T9.

So, as far as I am concerned, I'm against that. A longer wait would only result in piracy being "forced by law", since you could not have any chance to escape anymore.

 

[Dr Roly]

Not sure if this was covered in 17 pages but here it goes:

Situation:
1. To keep the game diverse in terms of experiences ED needs to maintain numerous categories of ships, including T6, T7, T9 barges that die like flies in any sort of combat. Those are lower in cost than a corresponding heavily armed and combat capable ones and allow the players to get to the next level of wealth.
2. Despite historic references to poor pirates, the existence of the pirates (NPC and human ones) is necessary in the game to have a healthy supply of bounties to the bounty hunters. Right now piracy is an expensive hobby.
3. There is little to none gradation in terms of safety of the systems. Except for claiming its an Anarchy the only difference is if system authorities show up if someone is shooting at you.

Proposed approach:
1. Make FSD cooldown under submission the same as after successful interdiction.
2. If the pirate wins the minigame, he/she takes no or little damage.
3. Work on really making system safety work:
A) Secure space should be secure, i.e., authorities show up immediately with guns blazing. And not the puny Eagles, I mean 'Condas and Pythons. In numbers. That will force only very skilled and very well equipped human pirate players venture in those systems for piracy.
B) Anarchy systems should be dangerous also in solo mode. Make interdictions almost a certainty.
C) Adjust trading returns to reflect the level of risk. Secure systems will offer healthy but unremarkable returns per run and you can run a Lakon tub with little to no shields. Anarchy systems will offer high returns to reward well armed traders that not only invest in well equipped ships but are ready to fight. Simulate the hell out of that mechanics making returns in different systems roughly equal over time.
D) Make pirating bounties hard to repay - killed someone, get stuck with an outlaw status. Robbed someone, have the penalty being the fine+price of stolen cargo.

That way you will allow for natural selection between the players: want a quiet runs in T9, go to core systems and trade quietly. Want some thrills, brave the Anarchy systems in an armed to the teeth trader at the expense of cargo space. Pirates who will suffer less damage in the interdiction game will have an incentive to have bigger ships, thus allowing confrontations with heavy traders.

Perma-bounties for killing would temper the gun-crazy pirates while high penalties for stolen goods will prevent pirates from treating piracy as a hobby. You turn a pirate, be ready to stick to anarchy systems. Major brownie points should be necessary to remove outlaw status. That would also allow FD to have anarchy specific missions to remove outlaw status. Almost like ranking ones.

Just my thoughts.

Not often I agree with someone 100%. +1 to you, sir.

 

[Commander Silex]

But as someone said your freedom stops where my freedom begins.

I think the proper quote is more like 'Your freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.' The implication being that if anyone does something to detrimentally affect you you have every right to take measures to retaliate or prevent. That said having the right doesn't explicitly mean that you will succeed in doing so. There are already systems in place to prevent unwanted player interdictions, such as solo and private groups. Much as interdictions might irritate a purely sight seeing player, the fact is it would be a far staler game if everyone who might possibly become a target for piracy could just fit a module to make them immune. Everyone with half a brain would do it aside from the most purist proponents for freedom for all roles.

At best I'd suggest a 'sightseeing mode' if that's what certain players really want, without an economy, AI, players or the capacity to sell system data scanned.

 

[Yokai]

This week I did a brief stint in a cargo. Well I HATE IT but I also learned some interesting things.

First, a cargo can't really excape interdiction. Seriously. Second, I have experimented some techniques to escape, and while they are somwehat effective, they are not life savers. Entering silent mode with an heat sink works can make a T6 run away, even with the longer cooling period, but I really doubt it can work on anything larger, like the slow-as-a-snail T9.

So, as far as I am concerned, I'm against that. A longer wait would only result in piracy being "forced by law", since you could not have any chance to escape anymore.

You "get" it now. There are many potential solutions to the dilemma posed by making interdiction harder to avoid/escape once interdiction. However, this needs to be looked at from wholistic perspective and not a narrow perspective on changing interdiction and post interdiction FSD cool down, which is All that the ED devs have hinted at so far.

 

[Commander Silex]

You "get" it now. There are many potential solutions to the dilemma posed by making interdiction harder to avoid/escape once interdiction. However, this needs to be looked at from wholistic perspective and not a narrow perspective on changing interdiction and post interdiction FSD cool down, which is All that the ED devs have hinted at so far.

That's not all they've hinted at.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101378&page=25&p=1578293&viewfull=1#post1578293

Also:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101378&page=15&p=1575950&viewfull=1#post1575950

Particularly:

* Submission escape: we are looking into two potential solutions to the ability for ships to submit then charge their frame shift five seconds later.

First though, a rationale as to why we have submission: we want authority ships to be able to drop players out of super cruise, in order that they can scan them. If authority ships can't do this, then smuggling loses some of its excitement. On the other hand, we don't want authority interdictions to damage the ships involved if the Commander is willing to submit to scanning. We also don't want to leave players with a significant cooldown afterwards.

Solution one is to allow the interdictor device to have some sort of FSD delaying attack in normal space, that is temporarily disabled when the device is used for a successful interdiction. So submitting Commanders would be at risk of this attack, whilst Commanders that fought the interdiction would not (but instead would have to contend with their frame shift cool down).

An added benefit would be that the interdictor could be used outside of interdiction.

Solution two would be to remove submission and instead update the AI to be able to demand Commanders to drop of their own accord so that the authority ships could drop out onto them and scan.

Both solutions are non-trivial, both have pros and cons. No ETA, but we are working towards fixing this exploit.