Which is why I will play in group for the moment.
Design 101 - Players must ALWAYS have choice to avoid or run instead of fight
- Thread starter Yokai
- Start date
Which is why I will play in group for the moment.
Problem here is that a lot of players don't know they're walking through a battlefield. In fairness, it's only a battlefield because you say it is.
If a player is planning a route and wants to play on open, they should know where they can travel. Traders (with reasonable defences) should be able to avoid conflicts by simply avoiding the systems they know are trouble. Same with fighters, they need to know where they can go to get that fight. A medium to high security alliance/fed/emp allied system with rares is not the place for random pvp'ers to go.
Criminals go were the money is. The problem is insisting you should be safe when you obviously are not. Where crime should happen is debatable, but once you find it it's your fault if you stick around.
i unfortunately had to spend the last 2hours being interdicted by complete idiots over and over destroying one of them.
i just started to get somewhere and i made the choice of trying to refuel at a star. then all of a sudden its pulled me in and instead of letting me cool down and escape it didn't bother to give me an escape vector, well one which wasn't behind the sun...
i somehow managed to restart the process and it worked this time letting me escape with one percent health. i decided to make a run for the last system and refuel their when i was immediately interdicted by the same guy that had been hounding me all night... this time he only had to lower my shields and boom. lost cargo, and had to take out a loan as i had spent everything on the cargo... just cant seem to get anywhere atm.. why players cant greet each other and form alliances when crossing paths i don't know... rant over... i couldn't escape one interdiction so its definatly been made harder. still cant believe ive nothing to show for hours of gameplay. just a downer tonight...
I wrote this while my blood was still boiling. I went back on for an hour and ended up making a few thousand in trading, then tonight ive taken it up to 17,000. tomorrow moving forwards im just going bounty hunting, until I have the money for a bigger ship that is...
i just started to get somewhere and i made the choice of trying to refuel at a star. then all of a sudden its pulled me in and instead of letting me cool down and escape it didn't bother to give me an escape vector, well one which wasn't behind the sun...
i somehow managed to restart the process and it worked this time letting me escape with one percent health. i decided to make a run for the last system and refuel their when i was immediately interdicted by the same guy that had been hounding me all night... this time he only had to lower my shields and boom. lost cargo, and had to take out a loan as i had spent everything on the cargo... just cant seem to get anywhere atm.. why players cant greet each other and form alliances when crossing paths i don't know... rant over... i couldn't escape one interdiction so its definatly been made harder. still cant believe ive nothing to show for hours of gameplay. just a downer tonight...
I wrote this while my blood was still boiling. I went back on for an hour and ended up making a few thousand in trading, then tonight ive taken it up to 17,000. tomorrow moving forwards im just going bounty hunting, until I have the money for a bigger ship that is...
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While I'm not against lengthening the post-interdiction FSD respool time, per say, (basically, giving pirates more of a chance after an interdiction to accomplish their goal) from what I understand, the other side of the coin is that while it is relatively reliable for a trader to boost, boost, FSD away, it's also pretty simple for a pirate to just follow them back into FSD and interdict them all over again. It might be part of why the evasive tactic is so effective, to offset how easy it is for the encounter to turn into a game of Interdict, Escape, Interdict, Escape, Interdict, Escape. However, if we tweaked it so the pirate/general violent player had more time- and could therefore inflict more damage- without also seeing to the ease of re-interdiction, then things are going to swing rather drastically to the favor of the attacker, as the trader will JUST manage to escape after deploying lots of his chaff, using shield cells, etc, etc... only to be pulled right back to square one shortly after, only with less ammunition in his defensive gear and possibly still-weakened shields. (Given my shields sometimes have said 'recharging' in FSD, not sure if they'd still be depleted if I dropped back out five seconds later.)
If this is to be rebalanced, my vote would be turning it into a single encounter, two tops; giving the pirate ample chance to take an unskilled or utterly unprepared trader, and even give a skilled trader a run for their money, but if they fail to succeed before the trader gets away... well, thanks for playing, better luck next time! (Next time not being six seconds later.) Perhaps having the trader's ship build up a brief immunity to Interdiction... beam? Ray? Pulse? In any case, giving them at least long enough to, if not reach a particularly distant station, reach one that's within 500Ls, or jump to another system before they become vulnerable to interdiction once again. (And, yes, one might argue 'The trader could just go to another system,' but given traders usually have a specific destination in mind for their cargo hold full of loot, they're left either logging off the game and waiting a few hours in the hopes the pirate is gone, switching to Solo to make the delivery, or taking a chance on another destination system that might offer substantially lower profit, and might still have a pirate waiting there as well.)
If that WEREN'T done- and you could still get interdicted all the time, as many times as one pleased- then I at least wish that both NPC pirates and NPC law enforcers would show persistence throughout the system. Have the NPC pirate follow me back into FSD and re-interdict me, sure! Small price to pay, because it means that any law-enforcing ships that get drawn to a pirate would follow HIM into FSD and interdict him repeatedly, with reinforcements starting to cluster in one particularly stubborn targets, forcing him to either destroy all attackers to regain a semblance of anonymity (at least, until the next law ship finds him doing nefarious things,) or flee the system outright to avoid destruction.
Basically, if you're in a high-security system and raising hell, breaking the law, you should eventually be driven to the same state of near-panic insanity that happens when you manage to get all the 'Wanted' stars in Grand Theft Auto.
If this is to be rebalanced, my vote would be turning it into a single encounter, two tops; giving the pirate ample chance to take an unskilled or utterly unprepared trader, and even give a skilled trader a run for their money, but if they fail to succeed before the trader gets away... well, thanks for playing, better luck next time! (Next time not being six seconds later.) Perhaps having the trader's ship build up a brief immunity to Interdiction... beam? Ray? Pulse? In any case, giving them at least long enough to, if not reach a particularly distant station, reach one that's within 500Ls, or jump to another system before they become vulnerable to interdiction once again. (And, yes, one might argue 'The trader could just go to another system,' but given traders usually have a specific destination in mind for their cargo hold full of loot, they're left either logging off the game and waiting a few hours in the hopes the pirate is gone, switching to Solo to make the delivery, or taking a chance on another destination system that might offer substantially lower profit, and might still have a pirate waiting there as well.)
If that WEREN'T done- and you could still get interdicted all the time, as many times as one pleased- then I at least wish that both NPC pirates and NPC law enforcers would show persistence throughout the system. Have the NPC pirate follow me back into FSD and re-interdict me, sure! Small price to pay, because it means that any law-enforcing ships that get drawn to a pirate would follow HIM into FSD and interdict him repeatedly, with reinforcements starting to cluster in one particularly stubborn targets, forcing him to either destroy all attackers to regain a semblance of anonymity (at least, until the next law ship finds him doing nefarious things,) or flee the system outright to avoid destruction.
Basically, if you're in a high-security system and raising hell, breaking the law, you should eventually be driven to the same state of near-panic insanity that happens when you manage to get all the 'Wanted' stars in Grand Theft Auto.
I've been all over and in my experience people stick to the areas that suit their playstyle. Sol is pretty busy but there is not a whole lot of money here and everyone is pretty laid back. I talk to people all the time and I've sat outside of stations for 30 mins chatting while people would drop in freak out and go hardpoints till they realised we were chatting and wander off. I do that on a pretty regular basis actually lol. The only time I have even been nervous around here was when I saw two eagles waiting in the back of a station. I went in ready to die in a blaze of glory and they came up to ask me to race. I'm not saying your perfectly safe but populated areas without an event or a major profit route are generally not engaging in PvP. Occasionally I run into systems where I see 4 or 5 people yanking people out of sc but they tend to stick to those specific systems for whatever reason, but are pretty easy to avoid.
"While I'm not against lengthening the post-interdiction FSD respool time, per say, (basically, giving pirates more of a chance after an interdiction to accomplish their goal) from what I understand, the other side of the coin is that while it is relatively reliable for a trader to boost, boost, FSD away, it's also pretty simple for a pirate to just follow them back into FSD and interdict them all over again."
That right there is why this discussion is so crazy. Jump to another system. All you have to do to avoid all of this is boost and jump away. How hard is that to do? How can you fail to do that every time? Sure every now and then but if it happens often I mean just how easy does it have to be?
That right there is why this discussion is so crazy. Jump to another system. All you have to do to avoid all of this is boost and jump away. How hard is that to do? How can you fail to do that every time? Sure every now and then but if it happens often I mean just how easy does it have to be?
It's easy right now, absolutely.
And because it's easy, pirates and other PvP minded players get irate about traders boost-boost-FSDing away, which could eventually lead to a push to make escape substantially LESS easy, but still leaving the interdicted with the inevitable requirement of fleeing the system altogether to get clear of them. (Well, technically you'd have to jump twice; once to another system, and then again to a SECOND system in case the pirate was FSD wake tracking you and followed you to the first.)But as for jumping to another system, as a trader, that really only works in the long-term if you have reliable, close-at-hand 'backup systems' to use until the pirate's gone, i.e. if you operate in a central region like Sol, Maridal or Frigaha, or if you just go to Solo, which I try to avoid. The region I'm in, while at the moment sparsely populated, is also pretty empty in terms of GOOD economies; if I end up, for whatever reason, finding 'squatters' in my usual High Tech system, I'm looking at about a fifty light year detour to offload my cargo at a substantially lower price elsewhere.... and to be honest, there are so few good systems in my region, if a player was particularly determined to find me, (I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few, if only, dedicated traders operating here,) he wouldn't have too many places he'd need to check. This all without a countering mechanic to really apply 'pressure' on the pirate to leave the system for any reason other than boredom, regardless of how aggressive he is.
Although I admittedly speak hypothetically, as my current intended tactic if I get interdicted is 'Submit, FSD off, deploy all hardpoints, proceed to blast the pirate until he is either in itty bitty pieces, or until I decide it's time to FSD.' =D I have a pretty big stick to shake at pirates, so making Interdiction extremely pirate-friendly is something I wouldn't mind at all since it'd give me justified targets to shoot eight hardpoints worth of weaponry at. But if I were running this route in a Type 6, or a Type 7, and my route had even a couple of persistent players floating around, I'd be kind of screwed because I'm surrounded by other systems that, while may not have other pirates, don't actually have any valuable trade potential either, meaning I'm jumping to another system in order to... um... sit around and hope that when I go back to my original system, they've wandered off.
"While I'm not against lengthening the post-interdiction FSD respool time, per say, (basically, giving pirates more of a chance after an interdiction to accomplish their goal) from what I understand, the other side of the coin is that while it is relatively reliable for a trader to boost, boost, FSD away, it's also pretty simple for a pirate to just follow them back into FSD and interdict them all over again."
Can't you just drop from supercruise and go grab a tea?
I totally agree,and I am quite frustrated at losing a type 7,or a type 6 while immobilised like a sitting duck,unable to fsd while looping pirate scorns at my cargo wanting more value.!!!. a few hits and voila... shields are gone and so am I..had insurance,ok,but the attacks in the game is leaving a sour taste in my mouth.I feel helpless and it stinks.. if this continues may be out soon,hope FD has a thought for an older player,Elite Viper or Elite pirate indeed..
The option to run and the option to choose to automatically avoid a fight are two very different things.
The way it works (or rather, is supposed to work... currently the submission system is borked) is that people who don't want to fight have several ways of escaping.
If they are interdicted, they first have the minigame where if they win they escape and the one trying to interdict is "punished".
If they fail the interdiction or submit, they still have the option of running by simply evading/outrunning/surviving until their FSD is cooled down and they can jump again.
If they are interdicted by a "civilized" pirate, they can also simply drop some of their cargo and be on their merry way. (or a pirate might be able to "bribe" the bounty hunter with some juicy cargo to let them go).
Now, what you're looking for is an automatic "decline combat" option where the person being interdicted simply get to say "no thank you, I don't want to play with you".
That option already IS in the game. It's Solo play and Private group play.
As for your comparisons to other MMO mechanics:
There are no such things as CC's in this game, so that comparison is bonkers.
The "warnings" are there... you can easily spot a ship trailing you to go for an interdiction and simply avoid it by maneuvering or changing speed.
The way it works (or rather, is supposed to work... currently the submission system is borked) is that people who don't want to fight have several ways of escaping.
If they are interdicted, they first have the minigame where if they win they escape and the one trying to interdict is "punished".
If they fail the interdiction or submit, they still have the option of running by simply evading/outrunning/surviving until their FSD is cooled down and they can jump again.
If they are interdicted by a "civilized" pirate, they can also simply drop some of their cargo and be on their merry way. (or a pirate might be able to "bribe" the bounty hunter with some juicy cargo to let them go).
Now, what you're looking for is an automatic "decline combat" option where the person being interdicted simply get to say "no thank you, I don't want to play with you".
That option already IS in the game. It's Solo play and Private group play.
As for your comparisons to other MMO mechanics:
There are no such things as CC's in this game, so that comparison is bonkers.
The "warnings" are there... you can easily spot a ship trailing you to go for an interdiction and simply avoid it by maneuvering or changing speed.
The ideas Sandro posted about, and which are referenced in the op, do allow the option to flee.
So this whole topic should be renamed to "It should be really, really easy for everyone to totally avoid any risk whatsoever. I don't want the game to be challenging for me but I want it to be impossible for everyone opposing me".
So this whole topic should be renamed to "It should be really, really easy for everyone to totally avoid any risk whatsoever. I don't want the game to be challenging for me but I want it to be impossible for everyone opposing me".
Never mind that as a game design principle this is complete rubbish, in ED interdictions you always have the option of evading interdiction or running from a fight.
What you really want is for the element of risk to be removed altogether.
Hello,
i have to ask:
why in hell do pirates want a wide open road to money?
Pirating is not as funny as an Erol Flyinn movie where everyone is clean, wealthy, not smelling like a Yak and where honour amongst the thief is just dinied by 'black Clothes/Hair wearing dark looking guy', real pirate.
Pirates are supposed to fight poverty, have black teeth (if any left) and outclassed gear. Usually they can't stand in a fight against proper (that says normal!) outfitted cops.
Thats the way piracy works.
Look to the history or even to the situation right now (Horn of Africa for example) do you see any rich pirates? Rich traders? Ooohh yeeesss.
As a matter of fact, there have never been and there will never bee rich and wealthy pirates.
Imagine a upcoming society like it is given by Elite.
The position to drop out of hyperspace is well known. It is given because of astronomic circumstandings (planetary positions etc..)
Talk about a wealthy system - i expect lots of cops there to scan for contraband, criminals, freight - because of customs duties etc. - it's not that easy to get into a system!
Or do you think, it will be that easy for pirates to buy any weapon, thrusters whatever? Even a new ship is not that easy to buy.
For the pirates it is far to easy to make money, take your Cobra, pay your fine and go a bit of trading, buy any weapon you want, any gear, any ship.
That ain't the life of a pirate. Let's face it.
Just a little spot on history of pirates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgan
just a little spot on actual piracy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia
Make it to harsh for traders they leave. make it to easy for the traders, the PvP fraction leaves.
And a game like this needs both fractions. plus Exporer + Miner etc....
i have to ask:
why in hell do pirates want a wide open road to money?
Pirating is not as funny as an Erol Flyinn movie where everyone is clean, wealthy, not smelling like a Yak and where honour amongst the thief is just dinied by 'black Clothes/Hair wearing dark looking guy', real pirate.
Pirates are supposed to fight poverty, have black teeth (if any left) and outclassed gear. Usually they can't stand in a fight against proper (that says normal!) outfitted cops.
Thats the way piracy works.
Look to the history or even to the situation right now (Horn of Africa for example) do you see any rich pirates? Rich traders? Ooohh yeeesss.
As a matter of fact, there have never been and there will never bee rich and wealthy pirates.
Imagine a upcoming society like it is given by Elite.
The position to drop out of hyperspace is well known. It is given because of astronomic circumstandings (planetary positions etc..)
Talk about a wealthy system - i expect lots of cops there to scan for contraband, criminals, freight - because of customs duties etc. - it's not that easy to get into a system!
Or do you think, it will be that easy for pirates to buy any weapon, thrusters whatever? Even a new ship is not that easy to buy.
For the pirates it is far to easy to make money, take your Cobra, pay your fine and go a bit of trading, buy any weapon you want, any gear, any ship.
That ain't the life of a pirate. Let's face it.
Just a little spot on history of pirates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgan
just a little spot on actual piracy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia
If FD does not get this right, this will hapen faster than everyone wants.
Make it to harsh for traders they leave. make it to easy for the traders, the PvP fraction leaves.
And a game like this needs both fractions. plus Exporer + Miner etc....
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I don't think piracy should be a way to print credits, nor do I feel it needs to be easy. It should be the hardest career path but it should be rewarding.
I'm not feeling the whole "look, this is how piracy is in real life!" argument. Nothing in ED is like real life. You can't become a millionaire within a few hours in real life by running cargo backwards and forwards on 5 minute journeys. If it were so easy in real life, it'd cancel itself out because everyone could and would do it and then there'd be no demand or supply anywhere.
This is a game. Not real life. It should be fun. Now, some might find piracy fun despite losing money on it. But the majority of players would prefer to make decent money doing something they enjoy.
By making all careers well balanced, without needing to make them equal, the game becomes more fun for more players.
The antithesis of pirate players is the trader. The target of pirates is the trader. The trader has the fastest, easiest, most accessible form of earning money in the game.
Why does it also need to be the safest career?
In terms of give and take, trading has ample room.for lots of give. It can afford to get more risky so piracy can be more rewarding.
The only reason trading is insanely rewarding is because you can trade in a ship with zero defensive capability. If this came with a much higher risk, then there's going to be a purpose to trading in a combat capable ship. At a loss of credits.
As things stand, I've made over 100m in ships with no shields. It's too easy. It's too safe. It's the precise opposite of piracy in every respect, including risk and reward.
Any trader arguing against making their money printing game harder or riskier are just being selfish. And greedy. The game needs piracy to be viable. And the current system of submit, boost, jump inhibits that 100%.
I know. Easy mode is fun. It feels nice to "beat" the player pirates, stay in open and pretend it's cool and dangerous. But it's not.
It's just easy mode. Trading is the easiest career by a long distance. I've made over 200m trading. I have died exactly zero times to an interdiction whilst trading. I should know.
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Towards safety. Besides in another thread a pirate is talking about his experiences. And because he's a decent pirate he makes plenty. It's only the crappy unskilled wannabe pirates that need traders hobbled down to the level of their limited ability.
And traders. It's not your God given right to fly in a slow straight line through and to wherever you like. The easiest way to escape player interdiction is to not let them interdict you. Fly wide, fly fast and if necessary drop out of Sc and jump away. I flew a t6 in open most all the weekend and didn't get interdicted by a player once. Only got successfully interdicted maybe 3 times in all.
Hmm, I'm all for the universe being a dangerous place.
The way I see it, the only thing that needs dev attention is that the security rating of a system influences how fast authority ships come to the aid when interdicted.
High security = pretty much instantly, since it doesnt take all that long to boil a ship to bits.
Low security = much much longer.
(Ofc. system security rating should also impact profit of trading, thus giving traders the choice to go low sec for higher profits but with greater risk ...)
Anarchy systems should be just that, crazy dangerous places, but should design wise be a potential goldmine.
Traders flying with no shields, well if I was an insurance company, I'd nullify their insurance on the spot
The way I see it, the only thing that needs dev attention is that the security rating of a system influences how fast authority ships come to the aid when interdicted.
High security = pretty much instantly, since it doesnt take all that long to boil a ship to bits.
Low security = much much longer.
(Ofc. system security rating should also impact profit of trading, thus giving traders the choice to go low sec for higher profits but with greater risk ...)
Anarchy systems should be just that, crazy dangerous places, but should design wise be a potential goldmine.
Traders flying with no shields, well if I was an insurance company, I'd nullify their insurance on the spot
Hello,
Edit: first of all i forgot:
@Ydiss
100% agree
FD has to get this, basiclly great, game well balanced.
Edit 2:
'Dangerous'! This word does not stand only for traders. Pirates should also fear the NPC cops!
So it is a GOD given right! Right?
Just kidding.
Of course
Ydiss wrote:
As a trader i'm not expecting a live without risk, but not to be just shot down.
And if you ask why, the moron is going to tell you: 'Because i can, whiner.'
like i wrote before, even the pirates in this game have to take over responsibility for the community. But what i read here in this (and other thread) they just expect me to satisfy their style of play.
They never ever ask, how they could satisfy MY style of play.
They just say: 'It's boring'
An if it is boring?
Thats not up to anyone else to decide what I have to do, when I have to be bored. or how fun have to be for myself!
You got it all?
I#m really sick of this self pleased manner "we bring fun in your game' How often i have read this bull? i can't counht. Usually from people whose intellect just fits for 'THE SUN'
Edit:
Edit: first of all i forgot:
@Ydiss
100% agree
FD has to get this, basiclly great, game well balanced.
Edit 2:
'Dangerous'! This word does not stand only for traders. Pirates should also fear the NPC cops!
Did GOD not say: 'You should not steal from your next'?
So it is a GOD given right! Right?
Just kidding.
Of course
Ydiss wrote:
I invested years, money - i got divorced, my children run away! And you tell me this is a game, just a game?
like I wrote, balancing this is not easy, but i'm shure it can be done.
As a trader i'm not expecting a live without risk, but not to be just shot down.
And if you ask why, the moron is going to tell you: 'Because i can, whiner.'
like i wrote before, even the pirates in this game have to take over responsibility for the community. But what i read here in this (and other thread) they just expect me to satisfy their style of play.
They never ever ask, how they could satisfy MY style of play.
They just say: 'It's boring'
An if it is boring?
Thats not up to anyone else to decide what I have to do, when I have to be bored. or how fun have to be for myself!
You got it all?
I#m really sick of this self pleased manner "we bring fun in your game' How often i have read this bull? i can't counht. Usually from people whose intellect just fits for 'THE SUN'
Edit:
here i'm absolutly on your side. if they got shot down, who cares?Traders flying with no shields, well if I was an insurance company, I'd nullify their insurance on the spot
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http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/18/top-earning-pirates-biz-logistics-cx_mw_0919piracy.html
*BOOM*
Mikedrop...
EDIT: also, if you actually DID brush up on history a bit, you'd know that pirates usually did their trade in smaller but faster ships. Something that seems to be very different than the common "get a bigger ship" response that pirates get when complaining about traders managing to get away before they can do damage to them.
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That will also take on toll on the pirates, when i have a bounty i am constantly (rightly or wrongly) being interdicted by the Feds which if lost means a show down with them. This in turn slows down my progress (interrupts what i was doing) and increases my bounty (fines for cargo/killing ect) making me more of a target for BH's. It's a balancing act that is needed for all, try one thing then another eventually a compromise will be reached but it will take time and trial and error is the best way.
I wonder if we will see threads complaining about NPC Griefers once the submit and fsd straight away is changed?
I wonder if we will see threads complaining about NPC Griefers once the submit and fsd straight away is changed?