Design 101 - Players must ALWAYS have choice to avoid or run instead of fight

[Yokai]

You are correct I misconstrued the point to be about general reward as opposed to being about interdiction risk reward.

I don't understand why anyone would think interdiction should favor a trader? The pirate is the one pulling the trigger thus he has the advantage of choosing when and who to strike. Traders have to take a proactive defense against interdictions. They have to make themselves not worth the effort of a pirate. Pirates have the advantage of being able to choose who to pirate, that's why it's so unbalanced. I don't see any way of making it fairer.

Oh and you missed my point about how traders can fly combat ships. There's noone with a gun forcing them into flying lunch boxes.

There's no one with a gun forcing players into flying tooled combat ships geared out specifically for interdiction success. It's circular argument, and moreover, it's a strawman. I do NOT disagree with the larger issue you make, but it's a _separate_ issue.

Also, it's a strawman to assert that the OP is requesting that "interdiction should favor a trader". The OP is asking for balance _inside the scope of interdiction encounters_.

 

[Majinvash]

No.. If FD do it right with Wings, there will be scope to make the game actually interesting and worth playing.

If piracy becomes a real threat and you can hire escorts, just think how much more interesting this could be.

Maybe even a step further where you get interdicted by a pirate group of fighters and they bring along with them a cargo transport to scoop up any gains.

Your escorts are trying to take out the pirates, the pirates are trying to take out the escorts. Cripple the transports and protect theres.

THAT would be a good game.

The reverse of your statement is that if there is no reason to pirate because its so unprofitable. ALL that will be left will be traders and griefers. zzzzz boring and broken.

Careful what you wish for

 

[drwoo]

1. Ask yourself this: "Why, exactly, should combat be any less profitable than trading? Is that some law cast in stone?"

2. In the larger scope of the game, NO player is restricted from trading. Or combat. Or exploration. ALL players have EQUAL access to monetary income.

3. Why should someone who simply dislikes trading be _entitled_ to a much greater chance of both initiating and winning a PvP encounter with a player who enjoys trading?

PvP should be consensual. If you want to entice ALL players to consent to PvP, you need to make it worth everyone's while. EQUALLY WORTH.

[\QUOTE]

What game did you buy exactly? This is the game where the head guy states that murder is part of the game. The game is advertised as a ruthless game, where murder is a aspect of the game.

No one is saying that you can't enjoy trading, I personally hate it, I actually fell asleep at the wheel doing it once. However, the catch to that is that IF you play in the OPEN game, you can and will get interdicted. And as a hauler, you are going to be at a disadvantage against a well armed fighter, that's the way the game is meant to be played.

From the first post starting this thread, the OP wants to trade freely without being messed with, I'm sorry but that's not how OPEN is meant to be played.

 

[Sim Maker]

No.. If FD do it right with Wings, there will be scope to make the game actually interesting and worth playing.

If piracy becomes a real threat and you can hire escorts, just think how much more interesting this could be.

Maybe even a step further where you get interdicted by a pirate group of fighters and they bring along with them a cargo transport to scoop up any gains.

Your escorts are trying to take out the pirates, the pirates are trying to take out the escorts. Cripple the transports and protect theres.

THAT would be a good game.

The reverse of your statement is that if there is no reason to pirate because its so unprofitable. ALL that will be left will be traders and griefers. zzzzz boring and broken.

Careful what you wish for

Pew Pew....Pew Pew Pew..............bye bye half the community...........that what you are after? I am sure FD are not so keen.....

 

[Indy Original]

1. Ask yourself this: "Why, exactly, should combat be any less profitable than trading? Is that some law cast in stone?"

2. In the larger scope of the game, NO player is restricted from trading. Or combat. Or exploration. ALL players have EQUAL access to monetary income.

3. Why should someone who simply dislikes trading be _entitled_ to a much greater chance of both initiating and winning a PvP encounter with a player who enjoys trading?

PvP should be consensual. If you want to entice ALL players to consent to PvP, you need to make it worth everyone's while. EQUALLY WORTH.

Right now, this is not the case.

You cannot use the scope of one entirely different imbalance (the fact that trading makes far more money at present) as a defense against the more narrow scope of the imbalance for the proposed interdiction changes. Doing so is a strawman fallacy.

.
1. Logically, if a trading ship can carry hundreds of tons of cargo, and a pirate ship can only carry a few dozen tons at most, piracy cannot possibly be as lucrative as trading is... especially since stolen goods are sold at 50% of their true worth at a black market. And since pirate ships are cheaper than trading ships, it makes sense for them to make less money... if piracy paid as well as trading does, very few people would trade.
.
2. I don't see what difference that makes... it's like you said earlier in the thread, traders can play as pirates too. So what? NOBODY will play as a pirate if piracy is next-to impossible... anyone can, but nobody will. And trading will be boring if you cannot lose... you need some excitement, and being dragged out of supercruise is how that happens. In the original Elite, virtually the entire game was (a) buy stuff, (b) get attacked by pirates, (c) sell stuff (if you survive). That's what Elite is all about, and always has been!
.
3. Traders have so many options for avoiding PVP already.
.
(a) Play in Solo
(b) Play in a PvE group
(c) Play in Open, but stay in 'safe' systems (more could be done to make these safer, but I assume it will be as development continues)
(d) Fly a multi-purpose ship, one that can defend itself if attacked, instead of a dedicated trade ship with no teeth
(e) Play the interdiction mini-game, win, and leave the pirate in the dust
(f) Submit to the interdiction, give the pirate a few tons of cargo, and then fly away without any PvP taking place
(g) Stall for time while their FSD recovers, then put four pips in shields and run for it!
.
What options does a pirate have?
.
(a) Interdict someone, and then blast them as quick as possible in the vain hope that maybe you will do some damage before they inevitably escape; then interdict them again, and again, until you win or they reach the station.
.
The traders have so many options, the pirates have basically none. I don't like non-consensual PvP being forced on players, but traders who want to avoid it CAN.

 

[Majinvash]

If they don't do it.

The game will die anyway.

When the pew pew goes... And the traders have traded enough to have all the ships...

They will get bored and move onto something new.

The only way to keep this game going long term is to create a reason to work together and make the universe alive and vital.

 

[kapitankev]

No.. If FD do it right with Wings, there will be scope to make the game actually interesting and worth playing.

If piracy becomes a real threat and you can hire escorts, just think how much more interesting this could be.

Maybe even a step further where you get interdicted by a pirate group of fighters and they bring along with them a cargo transport to scoop up any gains.

Your escorts are trying to take out the pirates, the pirates are trying to take out the escorts. Cripple the transports and protect theres.

THAT would be a good game.

The reverse of your statement is that if there is no reason to pirate because its so unprofitable. ALL that will be left will be traders and griefers. zzzzz boring and broken.

Careful what you wish for

YES THIS EXACTLY! Why traders seem averse to fighter escort is beyond me. It will be amazing fun! Why you'd want to go play in solo mode rather than experience multiplayer space battles is beyond me.

 

[Sim Maker]

1. Ask yourself this: "Why, exactly, should combat be any less profitable than trading? Is that some law cast in stone?"

2. In the larger scope of the game, NO player is restricted from trading. Or combat. Or exploration. ALL players have EQUAL access to monetary income.

3. Why should someone who simply dislikes trading be _entitled_ to a much greater chance of both initiating and winning a PvP encounter with a player who enjoys trading?

PvP should be consensual. If you want to entice ALL players to consent to PvP, you need to make it worth everyone's while. EQUALLY WORTH.

[\QUOTE]

What game did you buy exactly? This is the game where the head guy states that murder is part of the game. The game is advertised as a ruthless game, where murder is a aspect of the game.

No one is saying that you can't enjoy trading, I personally hate it, I actually fell asleep at the wheel doing it once. However, the catch to that is that IF you play in the OPEN game, you can and will get interdicted. And as a hauler, you are going to be at a disadvantage against a well armed fighter, that's the way the game is meant to be played.

From the first post starting this thread, the OP wants to trade freely without being messed with, I'm sorry but that's not how OPEN is meant to be played.

When I started playing a month or so ago, even Rare Trade runs had their challange.......the MappingPlotting system was hopeless for long jumps, I had no cargo space to speak of, I was crashing in to stars, the stations, etc etc......as you may recall, a LOT of the early comment was about the near vertcial learning curve, maybe some have forgotten.............but now this game is becoming MUCH harder for a noob...........I really can't imagine starting out with the Sidewinder and 1000 cr again.......being interdicted every few mins by NPCs (Soon to be inescapable) and never making progress.....

Just watch what happens over the coming weeks. Those demanding that this be turned in to a blast fest where the strong slaughter the weak, becasue thats what this boils down to, you will be hunting NPCs.......because "Open" will be dead.............

People can stamp their feet all they want about how they demand that others be their targets...they wont mate, they just wont, they will turn the game off or go solo.............

 

[kapitankev]

All this ties in with the community goals if you ask me....Once the thargoids make an appearance I'm sure there'll be a goal to build a station in a remote sector plauged by thargoids. Hopefully that'll be something that can only be done if the freighters shipping the metals have fighter cover.

The alien menace will unite us, it's like Watchmen.

 

[salad]

Design 101: Players must ALWAYS have the choice to still go after you even if they have to pay the ultimate price. (death)

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

There's no one with a gun forcing players into flying tooled combat ships geared out specifically for interdiction success. It's circular argument, and moreover, it's a strawman. I do NOT disagree with the larger issue you make, but it's a _separate_ issue.

Also, it's a strawman to assert that the OP is requesting that "interdiction should favor a trader". The OP is asking for balance _inside the scope of interdiction encounters_.

And once again you're using the fallacy fallacy to throw out my whole argument based on one sentence.

Edit: I don't care enough about this topic to continue arguing.

 

[kapitankev]

When I started playing a month or so ago, even Rare Trade runs had their challange.......the MappingPlotting system was hopeless for long jumps, I had no cargo space to speak of, I was crashing in to stars, the stations, etc etc......as you may recall, a LOT of the early comment was about the near vertcial learning curve, maybe some have forgotten.............but now this game is becoming MUCH harder for a noob...........I really can't imagine starting out with the Sidewinder and 1000 cr again.......being interdicted every few mins by NPCs (Soon to be inescapable) and never making progress.....

Just watch what happens over the coming weeks. Those demanding that this be turned in to a blast fest where the strong slaughter the weak, becasue thats what this boils down to, you will be hunting NPCs.......because "Open" will be dead.............

People can stamp their feet all they want about how they demand that others be their targets...they wont mate, they just wont, they will turn the game off or go solo.............

You don't have to be a target, I am willing to protect you....for a small price.....

Friend me - Kapitan Kev - Usually within 40ly of Lave.....

 

[Sim Maker]

If they don't do it.

The game will die anyway.

When the pew pew goes... And the traders have traded enough to have all the ships...

They will get bored and move onto something new.

The only way to keep this game going long term is to create a reason to work together and make the universe alive and vital.

Out of interest......your last comment.....
...
I make simulators for a living, clue is in the name.........I have worked for Microprose, Empire, Acclaim, Codemasters over the years, and I now work in "Top Level" motorsports both in Europe and the USA.........I work with some of the most competative people on the planet, day in day out..........the idea about this game that I loved, was the "play it your way"......I liked the opening scene from Space Hunter........his feet up on the control panel, picking up space junk to trade later...........he had to go find adventure.....and thats what I thought ED was......"Play it Your Way"....I only eve3r wanted to play solo.....

After dealing with the people ai do on a daiy basis, I have no desire to go play with children that want to Pew Pew Pew 24/7 like every other X Box game, I want to get away from such competition.....believe me, F1 teams are worse than you lot........so.....meh......I never wanted to play open, have never vetured to open, but I see my "Solo" game is being warped to help the PvPers out............to the point that One, I will never go open...and 2, Solo is getting pretty dull..........

Pew Pew is not for everyone, you will learn that over the years. Some people hoped to "relax" with this game, Exploring, Mining, Trading...........but it is alllll about fighthing now......... And surely there are enough things to shoot at and rob in the game without having to destroy another players "Thier Way" experience? No? ok, then they will be off........

Elite was once a unique "thing"............but really, another shooter........REALLY?????..........yawns........

 

[drwoo]

You don't have to be a target, I am willing to protect you....for a small price.....

Friend me - Kapitan Kev - Usually within 40ly of Lave.....

I didn't post that..... quote failure.=)

 

[kapitankev]

damn, just like in the game, boost instead of fire.

 

[Sim Maker]

damn, just like in the game, boost instead of fire.

Hehehe I did that in the station the other day.....was sooooooooo close to making it through the letter box.....then splat......it really should come with the Wylie Coyote sound effect of him sliding down a wall............

 

[Majinvash]

Your CV is wonderful.

I have been a gamer for over 20 years now, I was a sponsored gamer in my early 20's . Playing game such as Counter Strike and Unreal.
My various teams and I won many competitions and prizes. Both online and at UK LANS
After that I worked for a company building and selling IT hardware, including gaming machines for the last 8 years.
Ironically I have designed and supplied hardware into the MOD for training simulation.
The only game I can say that has really taken my interest since the early days was Battlefield 2.

I was hoping that Elite Dangerous would be a play your way and be heavily based around team work and players coordination.
I had in my head the hope that I might get to fight along in a scene very similar to the Battle of Endor in Return of the Jedi.
Fighters, Capital Ships, the whole shibang!

If you look at ANY long lasting gaming, the majority are based around real challenge and team work ( Maybe not Flight X )

So its wonderful that you want to sit at home alone, playing alone.

Elite Dangerous was never really designed for that, it was designed to be a live and "Dangerous" space sim.
Part of the sim, should be people like me who want to pirate, hunt, fight.

With team work, you could happily continue your simulated trading and leave the fighting to others as you FTL out of the area.

Crime DOES pay. It should in Elite Dangerous.

Out of interest......your last comment.....
...
I make simulators for a living, clue is in the name.........I have worked for Microprose, Empire, Acclaim, Codemasters over the years, and I now work in "Top Level" motorsports both in Europe and the USA.........I work with some of the most competative people on the planet, day in day out..........the idea about this game that I loved, was the "play it your way"......I liked the opening scene from Space Hunter........his feet up on the control panel, picking up space junk to trade later...........he had to go find adventure.....and thats what I thought ED was......"Play it Your Way"....I only eve3r wanted to play solo.....

After dealing with the people ai do on a daiy basis, I have no desire to go play with children that want to Pew Pew Pew 24/7 like every other X Box game, I want to get away from such competition.....believe me, F1 teams are worse than you lot........so.....meh......I never wanted to play open, have never vetured to open, but I see my "Solo" game is being warped to help the PvPers out............to the point that One, I will never go open...and 2, Solo is getting pretty dull..........

Pew Pew is not for everyone, you will learn that over the years. Some people hoped to "relax" with this game, Exploring, Mining, Trading...........but it is alllll about fighthing now......... And surely there are enough things to shoot at and rob in the game without having to destroy another players "Thier Way" experience? No? ok, then they will be off........

Elite was once a unique "thing"............but really, another shooter........REALLY?????..........yawns........

 

[Fian]

YES THIS EXACTLY! Why traders seem averse to fighter escort is beyond me. It will be amazing fun! Why you'd want to go play in solo mode rather than experience multiplayer space battles is beyond me.

Many traders aren't averse to multiplayer space battles. It is rather than they want to engage in multi-player space battles in a ship that actually has a chance. And most traders do have a ship or two that can hold its own in combat.

If you were invited to play a game of soccer but I told you you would have to run more slowly, turn more slowly and have a weaker shot than the other players would that sound like something that would be "fun" to play for you?

So space battles are fun, but only for those who are there to pew pew instead of playing the role of helpless target. Playing a game where you are set up to lose is just not fun.

If I feel like a space battle I will bring my cobra/viper instead of a T9.

 

[Roybe]

I think the OP is missing a point...or I am. I fly in open. Period. I trade in open. Since early beta, I have lost 2 ships to player interactions. Both pirates, one shoot and kill the other actually was a pirate...who was so patient that I actually bumped into him...and he never deployed his hardpoints.

Now, those two interactions taught me a couple of things about trading in open. First, play the interdiction game to win..or submit. The other thing it taught me was that a trader in open COULD not fly paper planes and not have to count the loss of the ship in their profit calculations. Any trader flying a paper plane in Open deserves everything they get, or lose. Since that set of interactions, I have always run A shields and A thrusters. Yes, I lose a cargo slot of 8, 16 or 32. The trade off is that I have never lost another ship to a battle craft. I can take a lot of damage while I boost away. Even at those times when I was mass locked I was still able to boost out past it and get away. To put this simply, you cannot min-max trading in open. If you do, you will lose your ship, regularly.

 

[Snakebite]

The reverse of your statement is that if there is no reason to pirate because its so unprofitable. ALL that will be left will be traders and griefers. zzzzz boring and broken.

Careful what you wish for

I've been warning about this since launch...... The whole balance is broken and is leading to that very situation already. I gave up Bounty Hunting as a career option because the few pirates out there can keep their legal status clean which makes Bounty Hunting impossible as a career choice (except for NPC's = boring).
I tried Piracy to make it work is almost impossible, I found that I ended up trading to fund my Pirating career which is hysterical.


Basically I have found that genuine] multiplayer piracy and genuine multiplayer bounty hunting are both broken game mechanics.....I tried both.

I now just consider myself a sort of anarchistic opportunist and fly around attacking the odd player at random for some exiting combat and paying my repair bills with a bit of NPC bounty hunting and doing the occasional mission.

I do worry for the longevity of this game.....

FD made a MASSIVE mistake by allowing solo mode switching, imo the longevity of the game will suffer because of the dynamics that causes.